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Author Topic: Dot Net - a wrong step by MS?  (Read 2283 times)

SKA

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Dot Net - a wrong step by MS?
« on: August 03, 2011, 11:03:07 PM »
Was .NET all a mistake?
http://www.i-program...t-all-a-mistake.html

Dumping .NET - Microsoft's Madness
http://www.i-program...rosofts-madness.html

Ska

vlastimil

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Re: Dot Net - a wrong step by MS?
« Reply #1 on: August 04, 2011, 02:52:49 AM »
Interesting articles.

I became a .net skeptic shortly after it was released in 2002 after I had to work on a larger desktop app in .net. It promised simple nasty-error-free environment, but did not deliver. Don't get me wrong, it is good enough for server-side components or simple desktop apps (if you do not mind the need to have the proper version of the framework installed on users' machines (which I do)).

HTML5+JavaScript makes a lot of sense for client apps. I have actually been considering exploring that direction not a long time ago. XULRunner seems intriguing - it is maintained by Mozilla, open source, the binaries are relatively small (compared to .net framework). If anyone has actual experiences with XULRunner, I'd love to hear about it.

mahesh2k

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Re: Dot Net - a wrong step by MS?
« Reply #2 on: August 04, 2011, 06:25:30 AM »
Microsoft seems to be following failed experiment pattern after every successful OS. e.g.
Win 98 (Hit)->Win ME (Fail)->Win XP/2000 (Win)->Vista (Fail)->Windows 7 (Win)->Windows 8 (erm fail?).

.Net framework managed to keep more developers and users on windows platform(desktop). Basically by limiting the developers to HTML+JS, they kicked many windows desktop dependent business developers. All the languages which were dependent on .NET with Iron tag are going to end. JS+silverlight is not powerful like vb/c# or java or python, if it was that powerful it could have been used already on linux or apple way before.So basically end of innovation for languages on microsoft platform. C#/VB for windows are going to end once 7's life cycle ends.

HTML+JS has benefit of limited security issues and the issues that comes with it are likely to be patched easily. But it gives less scope for developers for innovation. If they come up with app store for those apps then imagine 100k same and repetitive apps. Again there is going to be benefit of jumping early in this platform development to get some marketshare of new platform apps. Imagine writing JS based apps for finding files on hard drive(FARR?) and same type of app can exploit the system as there isn't anything to control these apps during initial framework. Then they'll launch some framework to manage and tight things up and developers and users will start from 0. Again if we assume that they keep C++ and WPF developers on this platform, still rest of the languages on new platform are equal to dead because all of them have to rewrite installers for current language distributions (like python, ruby etc).

I think of this as big change for developers moving to linux based desktop or even apple. My 2 cents.

wraith808

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Re: Dot Net - a wrong step by MS?
« Reply #3 on: August 04, 2011, 07:11:29 AM »
I guess I have to be the first to disagree.  First, though .NET is language agnostic to a large degree, the large development with .NET was C#, and though they try not to say it, it is the defacto language for .NET.  I think that, more than anything else, is why the support for C++ in the managed world has languished.  And I don't look at it as a bad thing.  A lot of our legacy applications are built in C++/COM, and everyone dreads having to get them set up to debug, let alone actually work in them.  Don't get me wrong; I think C++ will always have its place.  I just don't see it becoming a major player in the standard Windows business application market again.  All you have to do is look at the jobs available ads to see what a fallacy that thought is.

HTML5 is a browser based technology.  No matter how robust they become, desktop applications won't disappear, which is why the second part is fallacy.  Even Silverlight has its place in Microsoft's strategies.  HTML5 is the language of choice in Microsoft for internet applications; Silverlight is still Microsoft's language of choice for intranet applications.  There is a big difference.

A lot of the article seems to be based on concepts that are not competing, and arguments that don't hold water IMO.

Eóin

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Re: Dot Net - a wrong step by MS?
« Reply #4 on: August 04, 2011, 09:20:21 AM »
Quote
If Windows 8 adopts an HTML5/JavaScript app infrastructure there wont be a lot of apps ready for it to run.

Quote
If the future of Windows apps is HTML5/JavaScript then Windows has no future.

If is the key word! This article, Windows 8 for software developers: the Longhorn dream reborn?, seems to suggest those fears are unfounded.


kyrathaba

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Re: Dot Net - a wrong step by MS?
« Reply #5 on: August 04, 2011, 05:57:04 PM »
Personally, I'm enamored of C# and .NET.  It's by far the easiest and RAD tool I've used.  Quite powerful.  I don't find it limiting my creativity any.

Renegade

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Re: Dot Net - a wrong step by MS?
« Reply #6 on: August 04, 2011, 07:26:14 PM »
HTML5 is a browser based technology.  No matter how robust they become, desktop applications won't disappear, which is why the second part is fallacy.  Even Silverlight has its place in Microsoft's strategies.  HTML5 is the language of choice in Microsoft for internet applications; Silverlight is still Microsoft's language of choice for intranet applications.  There is a big difference.

+1

Let's see someone do this in HTML5 and JavaScript:

Code: C++
  1. void imdctf(float* time_signal, float* mdct_line, mdctf_plan* m_plan) // Looks like JavaScript has already failed at this point.
  2.  {
  3.      float  *xr, *xi, r0, i0, r1, i1; // And if it didn't fail above, it will here.
  4.      float  *cos_tw, *sin_tw, c, s;
  5.      int     N4, N2, N34, N54, n;
  6.  
  7.      N4  = (m_plan->N) >> 2;
  8.      N2  = 2 * N4;
  9.      N34 = 3 * N4;
  10.      N54 = 5 * N4;
  11.  
  12.      cos_tw = m_plan->twiddle;
  13.      sin_tw = cos_tw + 1;
  14.      
  15.         /* pre-twiddle */
  16.      xr = (float*) m_plan->fft_in; // Oh god... This will destroy...
  17.      xi = xr + 1;
  18.      for(n = 0; n < N2; n += 2) // Bring on the nukes!
  19.      {
  20.          r0 =  mdct_line[n];
  21.          i0 =  mdct_line[N2-1-n];
  22.          
  23.          c = cos_tw[n];
  24.          s = sin_tw[n];    
  25.          
  26.          xr[n] = -2.f * (i0 * s + r0 * c); // KILL! MAIM! DESTROY!
  27.          xi[n] = -2.f * (i0 * c - r0 * s); // RUB IN SALT! POUR IN IODINE!
  28.      }
  29.     // etc. etc.
  30.  

Sure, JavaScript can do a lot, but it CANNOT (in the practical sense) do heavy lifting.

By the same token, trying to emulate a browser (HTML5 and JavaScript) in C is nothing short of insane. Can it do it? Of course. Is it practical? No.

Different technologies have different places. Trying to force them into the wrong hole is doomed to failure.

It's the whole "I have a hammer, so everything looks like a nail" thing. Well, there are such things as screws out there as well...

HTML5 and JavaScript will enable fast, cheap, and easy development of all sorts of applications. But they won't be doing certain kinds of applications.

That only means that some cool stuff will get added to Windows 8. It doesn't mean that everything else is invalidated.

Microsoft fully supports F#. For a reason. It does a job that other languages don't do.

While JSON looks like crippled XML, it does have a purpose, and fills a role that XML doesn't neatly fill. Can you be more expressive in XML? Sure. Is that always needed? No.

It seems like every time a new technology comes out, someone wants to pee on an older one. Sometimes that's justified. But only when they address the same problems in the same circumstances. That isn't the case with .NET and HTML5/JavaScript. They address different problems in different circumstances. Is there overlap? Sure. Then it's just a matter of preference or prioritizing.

It kind of reminds me of kids complaining about not liking math. Well... It turns out that sometimes you need math... It also turns out that sometimes you need to know a bit about history, and sometimes about geography, and sometimes about chemistry, and sometimes about...

I only see the new goodies in Win8 being a good thing.
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steeladept

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Re: Dot Net - a wrong step by MS?
« Reply #7 on: August 04, 2011, 07:35:30 PM »
I tend to agree with wraith on this one, particularly since the glaringly obvious (to me) was neatly sidestepped in all those articles.  That is Azure.  Microsoft is, in my opinion, betting the farm on Azure.  That is where they expect all new development to go to, and where they will point their Windows Store for applications moving forward.  Windows Azure is ALL ABOUT .NET.  In fact, IIRC, you can't target Azure with any languages that are not .Net.  This plays in well with the HTML5/JavaScript story as the client is little more than a connection device to the service.  This is the move to the TV-like appliance pundits claim the computer needs to become.  Why?  I don't know, but those same pundits are enamored with Apple and the AppStore/iTunes concept - and the masses seem to follow that lead.  I truly believe that Microsoft is doing a two pronged approach - let Windows live as long as possible, but marginalize it before the competition does.  If you switch, eh, fine.  If you don't switch, you get these extra bonuses to connect to Azure (whatever they decide those bonuses are - single signon and instant connection are two that come to mind as likely).  It is not unlike their Live! offerings now, on steroids.  At least that is what I am seeing/guessing.

Eóin

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Re: Dot Net - a wrong step by MS?
« Reply #8 on: August 04, 2011, 09:00:37 PM »
With regards to C++, the head of MS's C++/CLI development is Herb Sutter, one of the most well respected C++ experts, and a key individual in the development of the new C++11 standard. If that doesn't prove MS's support for C++ I don't know what could.

Also they developed, in house, one of the best C++ compilers.