Home | Blog | Software | Reviews and Features | Forum | Help | Donate | About us
topbanner_forum
  *

avatar image

Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?

Login with username, password and session length
  • December 04, 2016, 10:35:28 PM
  • Proudly celebrating 10 years online.
  • Donate now to become a lifetime supporting member of the site and get a non-expiring license key for all of our programs.
  • donate

Last post Author Topic: Let's face it: the ebook market is FUBAR, thanks to pure greed  (Read 19347 times)

zridling

  • Friend of the Site
  • Charter Member
  • Joined in 2005
  • ***
  • Posts: 3,292
    • View Profile
    • Donate to Member
Let's face it: the ebook market is FUBAR, thanks to pure greed
« on: February 04, 2011, 02:07:35 AM »
useless_information1.jpg

No matter their few compatibilities here and there, Apple, Amazon, and Barnes & Noble have quickly succeeded in making the ebook market horked beyond recognition with their proprietary formats and [proprietary] hardware. This device can't download that format, that one can't read it even if you do manage to download it, the fonts are skewed on your smartphone, and everywhere everyone's out to drive book prices through the roof. With no delivery costs, built-in DRM (no sharing boys & girls!), there's NO WAY an ebook should cost as much as a physical book in your hand. I at least give Amazon credit for the ability to share books (if only for 14 days). As an experiment, I bought a new hardcover book and it arrived with cheap, newspaper-quality recyclable paper that will fade soon and if you make a note in the margin, the ink bleeds through. The same ebook format only cost $2 less than the $36 hardcover!

Point is, right now is a terrible time to be buying ebooks. Each is trying to make their format dominant, or at the least they are ensuring that the customer can only reliably buy books using their exclusive device from their stores. And if you're looking for books in the public domain, those lists are well-hidden, and finding the books themselves in readable formats is equally difficult. Most publishers don't seem to believe that books actually existed before 1850 (or after 1920). Before you fall asleep, yes, I know this has been argued to death here and throughout the web. But fighting the same fight every year gets old just because a few multi-billionaires need to push the stock price a few more points every quarter. Customers feel like suckers, and it's hard to enjoy your [entertainment] purchase if you know you're getting ripped off. It's the same feeling of eating cold fries -- have you noticed what fries cost! I get the feeling that if any one of these corporations could create their own internet and seal it off from outsiders, they would in a minute if they had enough suckers, yea Apple, I'm talking to you.

Signed,
Tired of being ripped off, picking up the pitchfork
(PS: Sorry for the numerous rants lately, but these proprietary/copyright/trademark/patent things really drive me crazy.)
« Last Edit: February 04, 2011, 02:12:53 AM by zridling »

Renegade

  • Charter Member
  • Joined in 2005
  • ***
  • Posts: 13,220
  • Tell me something you don't know...
    • View Profile
    • Renegade Minds
    • Donate to Member
Re: Let's face it: the ebook market is FUBAR, thanks to pure greed
« Reply #1 on: February 04, 2011, 02:33:34 AM »
+1 all the way.

You might enjoy this film:



That's the shareware version. I got half way through and had to buy the DVD it was so good.

It's sad, but I think greed is here to stay. I'm not against profit, but come on... Selling something that would be profitable for $1 for $5? Or $20? Or... Whatever it is, it's not going away. Thank the lawyers for that. They're the ones that have really pushed the insane degree of legalism that has provided the shit for greed to grow in.
Slow Down Music - Where I commit thought crimes...

Freedom is the right to be wrong, not the right to do wrong. - John Diefenbaker

nudone

  • Cody's Creator
  • Columnist
  • Joined in 2005
  • ***
  • Posts: 4,117
    • View Profile
    • Donate to Member
Re: Let's face it: the ebook market is FUBAR, thanks to pure greed
« Reply #2 on: February 04, 2011, 02:49:39 AM »
Not wanting to sidetrack things, but talking of greed, here's a little story in my family at the moment...

my mother requires a specific type of medication (she has a muscle and nerve wasting desease, so it's kind of essential). this medication has been available for the past twenty years at a cost of about £1000 per year to the NHS.

This drug has now been bought and relicensed by a "big" company. Their new price for the drug is set to be between £40,000 and £70,000 per year. In other words, this medication is not going to be available anymore, the company has obviously decided that they'd rather people suffer and die a slow death. Like, erm, wow that's kind of odd.

And you thought Satan was a fictional biblical character? No, he appears to be advising the world how to do business.

But, yeah, there is something definitely not right about ebooks. I hope they don't destroy the real book market - eventually.

Sorry for going off topic. I just wanted to say, there's nothing that would surprise me about getting ripped-off now. It almost appears to be rule No.1 for some companies.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2011, 02:57:54 AM by nudone »

Renegade

  • Charter Member
  • Joined in 2005
  • ***
  • Posts: 13,220
  • Tell me something you don't know...
    • View Profile
    • Renegade Minds
    • Donate to Member
Re: Let's face it: the ebook market is FUBAR, thanks to pure greed
« Reply #3 on: February 04, 2011, 02:57:04 AM »
not wanting to sidetrack things, but talking of greed, here's a little story in my family at the moment...

my mother requires a specific type of medication (she has a muscle and nerve wasting desease, so it's kind of essential). this medication has been available for the past twenty years at a cost of about £1000 per year to the NHS.

This drug has now been bought and relicensed by a "big" company. Their new price for the drug is set to be between £40,000 and £70,000 per year.

And you thought Satan was a fictional biblical character? No, he appears to be advising the world how to do business.

But, yeah, there is something definitely not right about ebooks. I hope they don't destroy the real book market - eventually.

I'm sorry to hear that. :(

What's the name of *this* avatar of Satan? (He has many incarnations on Earth...)

At the core, it's the exact same issue.
Slow Down Music - Where I commit thought crimes...

Freedom is the right to be wrong, not the right to do wrong. - John Diefenbaker

nudone

  • Cody's Creator
  • Columnist
  • Joined in 2005
  • ***
  • Posts: 4,117
    • View Profile
    • Donate to Member
Re: Let's face it: the ebook market is FUBAR, thanks to pure greed
« Reply #4 on: February 04, 2011, 03:05:09 AM »
Sorry, I ought to know, but I don't - just burying my head in the sand as usual. There are a group of doctors trying to petition the UK government about the problem - honestly can't see what they can do to be honest. It's all to do with "unlicensed" drugs and how large companies buy them, license them, and add a few noughts onto the price for good measure.

Anyway, let's get back to ebooks...


zridling

  • Friend of the Site
  • Charter Member
  • Joined in 2005
  • ***
  • Posts: 3,292
    • View Profile
    • Donate to Member
Re: Let's face it: the ebook market is FUBAR, thanks to pure greed
« Reply #5 on: February 04, 2011, 03:21:04 AM »
No, Nudone, you're not off-target because the analogy fits the topic: unmitigated GREED. I don't mind paying my water bill, but if tomorrow my city announced that water run to your house per cubic liter will now cost the same as bottled water, I'd rise up. In the US, we're used to getting pegged by drug companies. We even have a president who campaigned for cheaper drug importation, and then suddenly dropped the issue in his healthcare plan. Funny how things like that are dropped without a fight, as if to say, "Never mind. We're not talking about that anymore." I figure you could look toward every part of the economy and see something systemically broken.

zridling

  • Friend of the Site
  • Charter Member
  • Joined in 2005
  • ***
  • Posts: 3,292
    • View Profile
    • Donate to Member
Re: Let's face it: the ebook market is FUBAR, thanks to pure greed
« Reply #6 on: February 04, 2011, 03:24:34 AM »
You might enjoy this film: (The Corporation.)

Actually I did watch this film on Youtube years ago and I was shocked. When I did mention to friends or family, I was treated as a kook. But right there, you have CEOs and everyone else describing in great detail how they gamed the system, rigged prices, ripped off and injured people -- purposefully -- without consequence. My forehead was sore for a month from banging it against the desk so hard.

Renegade

  • Charter Member
  • Joined in 2005
  • ***
  • Posts: 13,220
  • Tell me something you don't know...
    • View Profile
    • Renegade Minds
    • Donate to Member
Re: Let's face it: the ebook market is FUBAR, thanks to pure greed
« Reply #7 on: February 04, 2011, 04:20:24 AM »
You might enjoy this film: (The Corporation.)

Actually I did watch this film on Youtube years ago and I was shocked. When I did mention to friends or family, I was treated as a kook. But right there, you have CEOs and everyone else describing in great detail how they gamed the system, rigged prices, ripped off and injured people -- purposefully -- without consequence. My forehead was sore for a month from banging it against the desk so hard.

I regularly post things that are utterly insane on Facebook, and I've got only 2 friends there that ever comment. One is app103. I've been quick shocked at how much people just don't care.

Meh... I suppose I shouldn't either... Hard to do though...



What about Project Gutenberg? Can all that be read on the Kindle and other readers? Or have they locked that out?
Slow Down Music - Where I commit thought crimes...

Freedom is the right to be wrong, not the right to do wrong. - John Diefenbaker

Beth UK

  • Supporting Member
  • Joined in 2006
  • **
  • Posts: 81
    • View Profile
    • Read more about this member.
    • Donate to Member
Re: Let's face it: the ebook market is FUBAR, thanks to pure greed
« Reply #8 on: February 04, 2011, 04:32:14 AM »

What about Project Gutenberg? Can all that be read on the Kindle and other readers? Or have they locked that out?

Project Gutenberg have a lot of kindle/ePub content that can be read  :)

Paul Keith

  • Member
  • Joined in 2008
  • **
  • Posts: 1,982
    • View Profile
    • Donate to Member
Re: Let's face it: the ebook market is FUBAR, thanks to pure greed
« Reply #9 on: February 04, 2011, 07:17:42 AM »
I don't know if you can say it's FUBAR.

If these three corporations succeeded in getting a monopoly on the market then the problem might forever be unresolved.

As it stands now, there's a niche opening for the next Amazon or the next Barnes & Nobles and it's not like e-book market infrastructure is dying.

wraith808

  • Supporting Member
  • Joined in 2006
  • **
  • Posts: 8,405
  • "In my dreams, I always do it right."
    • View Profile
    • Donate to Member
Re: Let's face it: the ebook market is FUBAR, thanks to pure greed
« Reply #10 on: February 04, 2011, 08:18:48 AM »
No matter their few compatibilities here and there, Apple, Amazon, and Barnes & Noble have quickly succeeded in making the ebook market horked beyond recognition with their proprietary formats and [proprietary] hardware.

I'd disagree.  I don't think it's the fault of the companies that you quote, but the actual publishers.  This fact is obscured by the fact that the publishers became overly greedy about the time that the larger distributors came into the market.  I've been buying e-books for a while, and have seen the market shift a few times.  First, when MS was pushing its reader, DRM was as prevalent as it is now.  (They weren't the first... just hte first that were really truing to push it for commercial gain)  It's about that time that Mobipocket began to push its .mobi books alongside .lit books.  Of course, MS had the most leverage, but the market wasn't mature, and it wasn't profitable enough for MS, so they bowed out.  There was a rush to fill the void, and basically the .mobi format began to be seen a lot more.  Adobe tried to get into the market, but (thankfully) bumbled the attempt.  There was growth, and there were two kinds of books sold, pretty much alongside each other- secured and unsecured.  Fictionwise was the big distributor of e-books, though Mobipocket distributed some of its own.  But the format was pretty much the .mobi format.  Then Fictionwise began to get a bit leery of depending on someone else's format for their product.  They still distributed .mobi formats, but began to push their own format, based on the old palm format (.pdb), that they called the eReader format.  That's when the market began to splinter, though it was still possible to find pretty much every book in both formats, so it was a matter of choice.  Unprotected eBooks were still sold at the author/publisher's discretion, and many books were sold unprotected.  The market started to thrive, and this was its downfall.

Amazon bought mobipocket.  Barnes & Noble bought Fictionwise.  The IDF developed ePub.  e-books sold like hotcakes.  And the publishers decided, "Hey, it's time to exert muscle again!".  And so they applied pressure through their normal channels against Amazon and B&N, books began to be unavailable on certain platforms because of licensing.

If way back when there were few books sold, one format had been decided on and supported, and the publishers brought in at that point, maybe things would be better.  Maybe if an open format had been written a lot sooner things would be different (.epub wasn't brought about until 2007, 7+ years(!) after .mobi and .pdb) But because of the publishers controlling the channels, and the amount of money spent on e-books, and the already fragmented market, it's very unlikely that anyone else will be able to get in on the scene.  Hardware... maybe.  Because you can support the e-reader software of both.  But to actually get in the market is pretty hard, as Borders and Apple have found... they just can't get the licenses to support a new format.  And because of the purchase of the .mobi and .pdb formats, they aren't open.  But in reality, it's the channel agreements that are killing the ebook market.  And even the owners of the formats are held at the mercy of the publishers.  Fictionwise has been very adversely affected because of this.  Of course the owners have already made their money, but the shell that's left keeps getting gutted because of limitations placed on it by the channel agreements- not it's parent company.  It's the RIAA all over again... but in this case, the distributors take the heat, and the publishers play their puppets behind the scenes, screened from the negative PR by their pawns...

Paul Keith

  • Member
  • Joined in 2008
  • **
  • Posts: 1,982
    • View Profile
    • Donate to Member
Re: Let's face it: the ebook market is FUBAR, thanks to pure greed
« Reply #11 on: February 04, 2011, 10:12:15 AM »
Quote
If way back when there were few books sold, one format had been decided on and supported, and the publishers brought in at that point, maybe things would be better.  Maybe if an open format had been written a lot sooner things would be different (.epub wasn't brought about until 2007, 7+ years(!) after .mobi and .pdb) But because of the publishers controlling the channels, and the amount of money spent on e-books, and the already fragmented market, it's very unlikely that anyone else will be able to get in on the scene.  Hardware... maybe.  Because you can support the e-reader software of both.  But to actually get in the market is pretty hard, as Borders and Apple have found... they just can't get the licenses to support a new format.  And because of the purchase of the .mobi and .pdb formats, they aren't open.  But in reality, it's the channel agreements that are killing the ebook market.  And even the owners of the formats are held at the mercy of the publishers.  Fictionwise has been very adversely affected because of this.  Of course the owners have already made their money, but the shell that's left keeps getting gutted because of limitations placed on it by the channel agreements- not it's parent company.  It's the RIAA all over again... but in this case, the distributors take the heat, and the publishers play their puppets behind the scenes, screened from the negative PR by their pawns...

No. Software is also a question mark.

It's easy to look at the format problems and think it's a mess but in reality, it never really did become organized and in many ways hardware did push this current market when Amazon launched the Kindle.

However from a non-hardcore e-book reading community, the ones these corporations are trying to market at, there really wasn't much of a software distribution design that went killer app enough to rival the RIAA situation for music and movies.

Both of the latter two categories are very flat. You mostly needed a viewer and you almost heard of the songs and movies the mainstream really wanted.

Books not only don't hold that mystique but it's not a natural digital age fit. As a format, epub is not as widely recognized as pdf and pdf would not be the most widely recognized if there were other competing formats with the same amount of software readers supporting said formats.

Then there's media libraries. Most people who want to get into music have things outside of Itunes for desktop playback. Most people who want to get into books have applications like GooReader.

Alot of these sound repetitive but the truth is wasn't this the same for online book publishing before Amazon came along? ...and then when Amazon came along, everything changed as far as e-commerce went. The e-book issue seems to be in the same case of problematic stage.

The only difference is that there is the market wanting it to grow already and there's more places to discuss it due to the bigger presence of the internet but most of these dilemmas remain the same even without greedy publishers/distributors: There's no next generation "Web" yet that did for books what the dotcom boom did for online book buying. Everyone's trying to fit the "business" into an app/reader/etc. already but in reality there's really only a small room for a newbie to jump into being an e-book fanatic especially without spending any cash on. (How many really share or talk about e-books that weren't just copies of real books? Audiobooks are much easier to try out than e-books and even audiobooks are not as widely sold yet in stores.)

All this greedy publisher issue relies on the assumption that you need these publishers to jump start the e-book market into mainstream usage but that's like saying books not Amazon.com helped Amazon.com more even though anyone could have and have tried stealing the momentum away from Amazon.


wraith808

  • Supporting Member
  • Joined in 2006
  • **
  • Posts: 8,405
  • "In my dreams, I always do it right."
    • View Profile
    • Donate to Member
Re: Let's face it: the ebook market is FUBAR, thanks to pure greed
« Reply #12 on: February 04, 2011, 10:54:29 AM »
^ How is software a question mark?  Every reader (even the doomed Kobo) has a software equivalent on the major platforms.  That's one of the reasons I ended up getting a iPad rather than a Nook- I run stanza, eReader, Kindle, and Nook apps on it.  When the last Dresden Files novel came out, it was only available on the Nook.  My friends that had a Kindle were out of luck.  It wasn't even in eReader format even though that format is the same as the B&N format.  You could only get it electronically if you had a Nook.  But I was still able to get it, because I had the Nook app.

As far as your point about the transfer of media, there isn't really that problem with e-Books; they're smaller than other media by a great percentage.  So much so, that when I downloaded my complete collection from Fictionwise (to make sure I had a backup of everything), which consists of well over 500 books purchased over the last 10 or so years, it was still less than 100MB.  Try that with music purchases for any length of time.

To the other argument about using PDF... did you ever experience the abortive effort by Adobe with it's reader editions?  That was a very big fiasco, and there's one other problem with that- PDF isn't an open format.  Adobe has shown this several times in trying to exert muscle over the use of PDF. 

The RIAA analogy isn't based on software, hardware, or anything of the sort.  It's based on content not delivery.  And in the same way, the big publishers are the same as the RIAA, just not as in bed with each other, so not as easy a target.  They rip off authors in the same way as the RIAA does with artists, they control the channels in the same way as the RIAA.  They are the choke point, and the source of the issues.  Amazon didn't start the rise in eBooks.  They took a risk, but it wasn't as big of a risk as you make it out to be.  They did innovate, but they weren't the first to try.  What they did was buy the correct technology, then leverage it with hardware at the exact time that the market was starting to take off.  If they hadn't done it, it would have still happened IMO- there were signs pointing that way already.  And while it's true that anyone could have tried- it's also true that people did try.  It's just that the deals behind the scenes limited the penetration, and Amazon also shot themselves in the foot by trying to follow Apple's example of playing hardball with their pricing when they didn't have the leverage to win that particular battle.  As with anything, it's the content that drives the market, not the other way around.  There are other ways of getting content to the users, but without content, the deliverers of that content are dead in the water.  So just as it is the RIAA standing in the way of the progression of the digital music movement, the publishers are the same gatekeepers for the switch from analog to digital in print media.

Paul Keith

  • Member
  • Joined in 2008
  • **
  • Posts: 1,982
    • View Profile
    • Donate to Member
Re: Let's face it: the ebook market is FUBAR, thanks to pure greed
« Reply #13 on: February 04, 2011, 11:20:17 AM »
Quote
How is software a question mark?  Every reader (even the doomed Kobo) has a software equivalent on the major platforms.  That's one of the reasons I ended up getting a iPad rather than a Nook- I run stanza, eReader, Kindle, and Nook apps on it.  When the last Dresden Files novel came out, it was only available on the Nook.  My friends that had a Kindle were out of luck.  It wasn't even in eReader format even though that format is the same as the B&N format.  You could only get it electronically if you had a Nook.  But I was still able to get it, because I had the Nook app.

It's alot like the argument for Final Draft or MS Word as far as "typing" goes.

Nook has one of the better business models (although I don't monitor e-book news so I don't really know of your specific tid-bit) but it's not a "killer app".

It's a great app (although I had assumed it was hardware) but it's taking the same model as before and just making it better or making it more interesting to interested people.

E-books though are bigger than that. That's why they are so hard to sell and the current business model is at the same time so easy to corrupt. This is all my uneducated opinion mind you but it's just what I see.

E-books have something bigger to them, that's why even though the final product is mostly the same - it tooked E-Ink Readers to get a small set of people interested in the actual idea of an e-book reader as opposed to a natural pattern where technology just caught up.

Quote
To the other argument about using PDF... did you ever experience the abortive effort by Adobe with it's reader editions?  That was a very big fiasco, and there's one other problem with that- PDF isn't an open format.  Adobe has shown this several times in trying to exert muscle over the use of PDF. 

You're actually making my case. PDF is bad but why did it take this long before something like epubs appearing? Let's not even consider PDFs but factor in the difference between how many people know of every popular types of e-book readers from how many people subconsciously have an idea of what Adobe Reader is showing on-screen?

Quote
The RIAA analogy isn't based on software, hardware, or anything of the sort.  It's based on content not delivery.  And in the same way, the big publishers are the same as the RIAA, just not as in bed with each other, so not as easy a target.  They rip off authors in the same way as the RIAA does with artists, they control the channels in the same way as the RIAA.  They are the choke point, and the source of the issues.

Actually it's based on all of that but we're mostly talking about semantics at this point. Even if you just took the content argument, it's still not 1:1 comparison between how people share and perceive the contents of an e-book from a movie/song/audiobook.

They are one of the major choke points but let's not kid ourselves and think e-books or even books never had a marketability issue compared to movies and music.

Quote
Amazon didn't start the rise in eBooks.  They took a risk, but it wasn't as big of a risk as you make it out to be.  They did innovate, but they weren't the first to try.  What they did was buy the correct technology, then leverage it with hardware at the exact time that the market was starting to take off.  If they hadn't done it, it would have still happened IMO- there were signs pointing that way already.

Amazon didn't have to start the rise of anything. That's kind of the point of the killer app category right? It's not who begins but who ends up sticking around and growing and redefining the users.

In that sense, the Kindle was the equivalent of the first netbook. It wasn't the OLPC but once the EEEPC got out, you knew netbook was a category of it's own and even today you could make the argument that netbooks doesn't have as huge a market despite not having to carry a format on it's shoulders.

Quote
As with anything, it's the content that drives the market, not the other way around.  There are other ways of getting content to the users, but without content, the deliverers of that content are dead in the water.  So just as it is the RIAA standing in the way of the progression of the digital music movement, the publishers are the same gatekeepers for the switch from analog to digital in print media.

Is the e-book the content? Not really. In this topic alone, most everyone commented about the format more than the concept.

When you mentioned the exclusive Nook files, were you selling the book or were you selling the idea of certain exclusive books like how gaming consoles work?

The RIAA is standing in the way of digital music that has pretty much been maxxed out except for certain audiophile people as far as everything goes.

There may be a better format but it's an uphill "upgrade" format at this point. E-books on the other hand, even if you don't choke that out, it's full potential isn't really out there yet.

Or rather you could say even if you accept all the current concepts and forms e-book selling has taken currently minus the DRM, it doesn't mean it has the same mass adoption yet so everything that's being stifled now is like trial by fire in my opinion to force content providers to adapt to a paradigm shift and that's really just my stance. I'm not really saying ok there's no problem, let's wait it out. I'm just saying it's not FUBAR yet. It may become dormant because of the corruption but it's this type of corruption that is going to upseat a new form of format acceptance as well as new forms of delivery and even opportunities for other businesses to "make up" for where these companies have massively failed and that still includes software even though now it seems e-book readers are known by most.

kyrathaba

  • N.A.N.Y. Organizer
  • Honorary Member
  • Joined in 2006
  • **
  • Posts: 3,120
    • View Profile
    • Donate to Member
Re: Let's face it: the ebook market is FUBAR, thanks to pure greed
« Reply #14 on: February 04, 2011, 11:46:10 AM »
It's more the fault of greedy publishers than of greedy eBook marketers.  E-books make money for their pushers due to bulk -- the high quantity of distribution.  It's the publishers who don't want their hard-copies of titles to be undersold that are driving up the per-book price of any given eBook.  Even at that, lots of eBooks are still considerably less expensive than the hard-copy equivalent.  Take, for instance, the Stephen Donaldson title I just bought for my Kindle.  Total cost to me was $6.52, as opposed to the paperback version, which at $7.99 plus shipping/handling, comes in at over $10.00.  Not only did I get my book instantaneously, but I saved $3.50. 

But your more expensive books are not going to see such a discrepancy in hard-cover versus eBook price, because, hey, the publishers don't wanna lose money on that big expensive book (say, certain programming books, for instance).

wraith808

  • Supporting Member
  • Joined in 2006
  • **
  • Posts: 8,405
  • "In my dreams, I always do it right."
    • View Profile
    • Donate to Member
Re: Let's face it: the ebook market is FUBAR, thanks to pure greed
« Reply #15 on: February 04, 2011, 11:57:56 AM »
Quote
How is software a question mark?  Every reader (even the doomed Kobo) has a software equivalent on the major platforms.  That's one of the reasons I ended up getting a iPad rather than a Nook- I run stanza, eReader, Kindle, and Nook apps on it.  When the last Dresden Files novel came out, it was only available on the Nook.  My friends that had a Kindle were out of luck.  It wasn't even in eReader format even though that format is the same as the B&N format.  You could only get it electronically if you had a Nook.  But I was still able to get it, because I had the Nook app.

It's alot like the argument for Final Draft or MS Word as far as "typing" goes.

Nook has one of the better business models (although I don't monitor e-book news so I don't really know of your specific tid-bit) but it's not a "killer app".

It's a great app (although I had assumed it was hardware) but it's taking the same model as before and just making it better or making it more interesting to interested people.

E-books though are bigger than that. That's why they are so hard to sell and the current business model is at the same time so easy to corrupt. This is all my uneducated opinion mind you but it's just what I see.

E-books have something bigger to them, that's why even though the final product is mostly the same - it tooked E-Ink Readers to get a small set of people interested in the actual idea of an e-book reader as opposed to a natural pattern where technology just caught up.
The nook is the hardware and the app.  I'm not saying it's a killer app.  iTunes isn't a killer app.  Most people don't even like it.  They put up with it because of the hardware.  That's why software isn't the issue- it's more hardware.

Quote
To the other argument about using PDF... did you ever experience the abortive effort by Adobe with it's reader editions?  That was a very big fiasco, and there's one other problem with that- PDF isn't an open format.  Adobe has shown this several times in trying to exert muscle over the use of PDF.  

You're actually making my case. PDF is bad but why did it take this long before something like epubs appearing? Let's not even consider PDFs but factor in the difference between how many people know of every popular types of e-book readers from how many people subconsciously have an idea of what Adobe Reader is showing on-screen?
You're missing one part of the point.  Adobe tried to get into it after the market started maturing.  PDFs have never been considered a big format in the game.  The formats from the beginning were .mobi (which is now owned by Amazon), and .pdb (which is now owned by B&N).  People try to compare .epub in the same category, but the format was not created until 2007... well after the other two had become entrenched.  Though the market was not as large as it is now, it was large enough that neither of them had any pressure to drop their format and change to a non-tested format.  And both had secure and non-secure formats, so it wasn't like .epub was offering something that wasn't there.  That's my point.  An open format can't be an also-ran, or there won't be an argument towards moving to it, other than we don't want to use a proprietary format.

Quote
The RIAA analogy isn't based on software, hardware, or anything of the sort.  It's based on content not delivery.  And in the same way, the big publishers are the same as the RIAA, just not as in bed with each other, so not as easy a target.  They rip off authors in the same way as the RIAA does with artists, they control the channels in the same way as the RIAA.  They are the choke point, and the source of the issues.

Actually it's based on all of that but we're mostly talking about semantics at this point. Even if you just took the content argument, it's still not 1:1 comparison between how people share and perceive the contents of an e-book from a movie/song/audiobook.

They are one of the major choke points but let's not kid ourselves and think e-books or even books never had a marketability issue compared to movies and music.
I'm not really getting the point here.  There is a 1:1 comparison between books, movies, and music.  They are all content delivered by a medium.  If you give someone an empty cd, they have the same problem as if they have an empty book- there is no content.  Add content to that delivery device, and you have a product.  In both cases, there are other ways to deliver the content- digital being one of them.  So the content is the big thing here- not the delivery mechanism.

Quote
Amazon didn't start the rise in eBooks.  They took a risk, but it wasn't as big of a risk as you make it out to be.  They did innovate, but they weren't the first to try.  What they did was buy the correct technology, then leverage it with hardware at the exact time that the market was starting to take off.  If they hadn't done it, it would have still happened IMO- there were signs pointing that way already.

Amazon didn't have to start the rise of anything. That's kind of the point of the killer app category right? It's not who begins but who ends up sticking around and growing and redefining the users.

In that sense, the Kindle was the equivalent of the first netbook. It wasn't the OLPC but once the EEEPC got out, you knew netbook was a category of it's own and even today you could make the argument that netbooks doesn't have as huge a market despite not having to carry a format on it's shoulders.
The killer app analogy doesn't really equate in this situation.  A killer app is something that is content that sells hardware.  A whole different paradigm.  And even if you do try to equate the two, a killer app is something that starts critical mass.  With consoles, they have exclusives that everyone *has* to have... and once it's in their possession, the sales of other things on the console rise because people now have the big investment part out of the way.  With the kindle, there was no killer book that made people buy the kindle.  It was bought because it was cool, and useable, and people could consume books on it.  *Any* device that could have satisfied those needs would have slipped into the same profitable area.  It was just the Kindle that did it first, right as there was a critical mass of ebooks starting in the market.  That's one of the reasons that they bought the .mobi format rather than making their own- it was proven, and there were *already* books in that format; only minor tweaking was needed to bring the content to market.

Quote
As with anything, it's the content that drives the market, not the other way around.  There are other ways of getting content to the users, but without content, the deliverers of that content are dead in the water.  So just as it is the RIAA standing in the way of the progression of the digital music movement, the publishers are the same gatekeepers for the switch from analog to digital in print media.

Is the e-book the content? Not really. In this topic alone, most everyone commented about the format more than the concept.
The format isn't the concept either.  It's the content within the e-book, and that's what the publishers control.


When you mentioned the exclusive Nook files, were you selling the book or were you selling the idea of certain exclusive books like how gaming consoles work?
To continue that ... the exclusivity on consoles is *again* content.  The reason that it works like it does is because of the number of publishers.  There aren't as many publishers of books as their are of games.  And as the number of publishers dwindle in the gaming market, the number of exclusive titles also dwindle.  Have you looked at what's exclusive now?  Only games that are published by the manufacturers of the consoles.  That doesn't really create lock-in.  I want infamous, but it's not enough to make me buy a ps3.  But if a large publisher consistently made games only for one console, then that would be more of a draw.

The RIAA is standing in the way of digital music that has pretty much been maxxed out except for certain audiophile people as far as everything goes.

There may be a better format but it's an uphill "upgrade" format at this point. E-books on the other hand, even if you don't choke that out, it's full potential isn't really out there yet.

Or rather you could say even if you accept all the current concepts and forms e-book selling has taken currently minus the DRM, it doesn't mean it has the same mass adoption yet so everything that's being stifled now is like trial by fire in my opinion to force content providers to adapt to a paradigm shift and that's really just my stance. I'm not really saying ok there's no problem, let's wait it out. I'm just saying it's not FUBAR yet. It may become dormant because of the corruption but it's this type of corruption that is going to upseat a new form of format acceptance as well as new forms of delivery and even opportunities for other businesses to "make up" for where these companies have massively failed and that still includes software even though now it seems e-book readers are known by most.

Do you *really* think another format is going to come along at this point that's going to change the way that things operate?  Unless it gives something radically new, I think you're dreaming.  You can see that in the market even now.  Sony has a hard time, and they have a lot of leverage behind them from other entertainment markets.  Borders is a huge chain, but they came a bit late, and so are falling a dollar short... if someone that large can't make it, then who can?
It's more the fault of greedy publishers than of greedy eBook marketers.  E-books make money for their pushers due to bulk -- the high quantity of distribution.  It's the publishers who don't want their hard-copies of titles to be undersold that are driving up the per-book price of any given eBook.  Even at that, lots of eBooks are still considerably less expensive than the hard-copy equivalent.  Take, for instance, the Stephen Donaldson title I just bought for my Kindle.  Total cost to me was $6.52, as opposed to the paperback version, which at $7.99 plus shipping/handling, comes in at over $10.00.  Not only did I get my book instantaneously, but I saved $3.50. 

But your more expensive books are not going to see such a discrepancy in hard-cover versus eBook price, because, hey, the publishers don't wanna lose money on that big expensive book (say, certain programming books, for instance).
My exact point.  But it doesn't seem that many recognize this- it's easier to blame Amazon, Barnes & Noble, and Apple than Harper Collins, et al.  Most people don't even *know* the names of the publishers.  They just aren't as easy a target, especially since they don't have a self created one like the RIAA for people to focus their ire on.

Paul Keith

  • Member
  • Joined in 2008
  • **
  • Posts: 1,982
    • View Profile
    • Donate to Member
Re: Let's face it: the ebook market is FUBAR, thanks to pure greed
« Reply #16 on: February 04, 2011, 01:20:25 PM »
Quote
The nook is the hardware and the app.  I'm not saying it's a killer app.  iTunes isn't a killer app.  Most people don't even like it.  They put up with it because of the hardware.  That's why software isn't the issue- it's more hardware.

They also put up with it because often times that's the first thing they are exposed to. Most people are exposed to the idea of the e-books through the Kindle and the Iphone E-book Readers but there's not one true software that connects their minds to all of these.

With that said, I'd just like to clarify that I didn't mean to imply the Itunes itself was a killer app.

Quote
You're missing one part of the point.  Adobe tried to get into it after the market started maturing.  PDFs have never been considered a big format in the game.  The formats from the beginning were .mobi (which is now owned by Amazon), and .pdb (which is now owned by B&N).  People try to compare .epub in the same category, but the format was not created until 2007... well after the other two had become entrenched.  Though the market was not as large as it is now, it was large enough that neither of them had any pressure to drop their format and change to a non-tested format.  And both had secure and non-secure formats, so it wasn't like .epub was offering something that wasn't there.  That's my point.  An open format can't be an also-ran, or there won't be an argument towards moving to it, other than we don't want to use a proprietary format.

Quote
Do you *really* think another format is going to come along at this point that's going to change the way that things operate?  Unless it gives something radically new, I think you're dreaming.  You can see that in the market even now.  Sony has a hard time, and they have a lot of leverage behind them from other entertainment markets.  Borders is a huge chain, but they came a bit late, and so are falling a dollar short... if someone that large can't make it, then who can?

Not trying to dodge the point but I don't feel like I'm missing the point and at the same time I don't have anything to add except for pointing out that I feel there is a contradiction between these two paragraphs.

With that said, I'd also again like to clarify that I never argued for the format being the game changer in any of my post. It's a possibility but format does not = entire software.

Quote
The format isn't the concept either.  It's the content within the e-book, and that's what the publishers control.

Actually semantically you could make that issue even more confusing by repeating some of the taglines of e-book selling which is that it's possible to avoid the publisher entirely and be a self-marketing e-book author.

I'm not saying it's easy or there's not a strong pull against that trend for many popular authors but hey, it wasn't like I was saying the format is the concept either.

Quote
To continue that ... the exclusivity on consoles is *again* content.

Not really. If you're looking at it purely from a technological view, yeah it leans towards that but for the actual consumers many times it could be something other than content.

Quote
The reason that it works like it does is because of the number of publishers.  There aren't as many publishers of books as their are of games.  And as the number of publishers dwindle in the gaming market, the number of exclusive titles also dwindle.  Have you looked at what's exclusive now?  Only games that are published by the manufacturers of the consoles.  That doesn't really create lock-in.  I want infamous, but it's not enough to make me buy a ps3.  But if a large publisher consistently made games only for one console, then that would be more of a draw.

Which is why I feel the current situation is much closer to the Nintendo/Sega era than the analogy with RIAA but again it's all perspective. I don't really have a disagreement with your stance. Just adding my own 2 cents.

Quote
The killer app analogy doesn't really equate in this situation.  A killer app is something that is content that sells hardware.

It's actually interesting. For me and my knowledge of the general hype of the title "killer app" back then was that you couldn't define it. You could explain it afterwards and justify it but for the most part, it's not "anything".

After all if it's something that "just works" then there's no point of differentiating between a killer app that changes the consumer culture of a market from that of a merely great app that the market finally accept.

As you said it starts a critical mass. My perspective for the future of e-book adoption is that.

Quote
With consoles, they have exclusives that everyone *has* to have... and once it's in their possession, the sales of other things on the console rise because people now have the big investment part out of the way. 

...and I don't consider exclusive videogame titles (at least most of them) as equivalent to a killer app critical mass acception.

Quote
With the kindle, there was no killer book that made people buy the kindle.  It was bought because it was cool, and useable, and people could consume books on it.  *Any* device that could have satisfied those needs would have slipped into the same profitable area.  It was just the Kindle that did it first, right as there was a critical mass of ebooks starting in the market.  That's one of the reasons that they bought the .mobi format rather than making their own- it was proven, and there were *already* books in that format; only minor tweaking was needed to bring the content to market.

Actually if it was proven, then the market model wouldn't be stifled by DRM currently.

There's a difference between an existing market and a market that's ready for critical mass.

Same thing with the netbook analogy. You could always argue netbooks were close to possible; and really the OLPC wasn't selling itself as a netbook.

For me also, there wasn't a critical mass for e-books then. There was a growing market and Amazon tried to capitalize on it but if there was really a critical mass, you'd see it first in the shops and stores and libraries and how it cuts away at a huge element of real books.

That didn't happen because there really was no critical mass. Critical mass for me it's not just some fad that suddenly disappears and yet that's kind of the situation e-books have now. The focus is all on readers and price and DRM because frankly a single e-book is not as notable a discussion compared to the entire genre yet and it's like that because there's no critical mass that could have occurred. Not to mention again, the very nature of the word "critical", it's not something that evokes the image of being stifled secretly.

johnk

  • Charter Member
  • Joined in 2005
  • ***
  • Posts: 245
    • View Profile
    • Donate to Member
Re: Let's face it: the ebook market is FUBAR, thanks to pure greed
« Reply #17 on: February 04, 2011, 05:55:37 PM »
I can't believe I'm jumping to the defence of the big corporations, but a few things need to be said.

To the best of my knowledge, printing and distributing a book is a minor part of overall publishing costs. I think a standard hardback print run for a mainstream novel costs less than £1 per book. So if publishing companies are looking to maintain the same level of profits on ebooks that they obtain on print books, you're not going to see a huge reduction in prices. But yes, prices should be slightly cheaper than print books.

Secondly, if you're looking to rip people off, there are many, many better industries to do it in than book publishing.

Thirdly, yeah, I don't like DRM either. I don't buy DRM'd products. Or if I do, I might choose to break the DRM afterwards (I have no moral problem with doing that once I have bought the product). But lately, I actually find myself sympathising with the book/music publishers. Because I know so few young people who will pay for digital files. Of any sort. Music, video, software. Many young people seem to think you're nuts if you pay for ones and zeros. Mass copying of files among groups of friends appears to be the norm. It has nothing to do with price. It's a generational thing. A whole generation is growing up that somehow seems to have no moral qualms about digital theft. If I were a book publisher, I would use DRM. There, I've said it.

And in general: I worked for a big multi-national for many years (not a book publisher). Yep, they are utterly and absolutely focussed on maximising profits in any way they can. It's their job. The role of any company is to "maximise the long-term return to shareholders". And who are the shareholders?

You and me. The vast majority of shares are owned by financial institutions. Pension funds. Insurance companies. Other financial institutions. Investing our money. The return you get on your pension or other fund, or whether your company/government can afford to pay you a decent pension when you retire, depends on how these funds perform. It's all circular. The pension funds put huge pressure on big companies to maximise returns. Because you and I demand the best possible pension when we retire. We "get ripped off" at one end, we get a better pension at the other. It's no use blaming "the rich". There really aren't very many of them. Statistically, they're irrelevant. We're the ones demanding a decent pension and the right to sit and do nothing for 20 years when we retire. So it's swings and roundabouts. That's how capitalism works. There are alternatives...

Renegade

  • Charter Member
  • Joined in 2005
  • ***
  • Posts: 13,220
  • Tell me something you don't know...
    • View Profile
    • Renegade Minds
    • Donate to Member
Re: Let's face it: the ebook market is FUBAR, thanks to pure greed
« Reply #18 on: February 04, 2011, 06:55:40 PM »
That's how capitalism works. There are alternatives...

Like what?

I can't see an alternative. (Practically that is, though it is *possible* to imagine counterfactuals.)

Capitalism is the new dictator. You either follow it, or perish. There are no alternatives and there are no choices.

Everyone, including the big corporations, is caught in its grasp. Governments are powerless to change the model. Even in "communist" countries, capitalism is alive and well. If you don't believe me, visit a few.

It's an overwhelming system, and it's dictating behavior for corporations. They do not have a choice in the matter. They MUST be greedy.

"All problems [in computer science] can be solved by another level of indirection." David Wheeler (de-emphasis added) :D

Slow Down Music - Where I commit thought crimes...

Freedom is the right to be wrong, not the right to do wrong. - John Diefenbaker

johnk

  • Charter Member
  • Joined in 2005
  • ***
  • Posts: 245
    • View Profile
    • Donate to Member
Re: Let's face it: the ebook market is FUBAR, thanks to pure greed
« Reply #19 on: February 04, 2011, 07:30:05 PM »
That's how capitalism works. There are alternatives...

Like what?

This is veering off topic, but you're right that, in practical terms, we cannot all choose tomorrow not to live in a capitalist system. But we can choose how we live in that system.

"Greed is good" is now an iconic phrase, summing up an era. But I would argue that the really key phrase is "growth is good" -- the automatic underlying assumption in every economic discussion that more is always better.

I joined many other people in recent years by "downsizing" my life. Not just the "giving up posh restaurants" downsizing people do when hard times hit (I could never afford posh restaurants anyway), but more radical downsizing -- from big city to much smaller house in a small town, far less discretionary spending, a simple lifestyle. We can survive on very modest income. Recession is nowhere near the worry it would have been five years ago. We are to an extent insulated from it all. But we are much "poorer" economically. We have experienced severe "negative growth", as economists would say. But we are happier. It was a good decision.

If significant numbers of people made a similar decision, opting out of wealth generation? It would be economically devastating. Living standards would fall back by at least a generation. Would you be happier? That's the real choice we have today. And everyone can make it for themselves.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2011, 07:52:52 PM by johnk »

Renegade

  • Charter Member
  • Joined in 2005
  • ***
  • Posts: 13,220
  • Tell me something you don't know...
    • View Profile
    • Renegade Minds
    • Donate to Member
Re: Let's face it: the ebook market is FUBAR, thanks to pure greed
« Reply #20 on: February 04, 2011, 07:54:24 PM »
That's how capitalism works. There are alternatives...

Like what?

This is veering off topic, but you're right that, in practical terms, we cannot all choose tomorrow not to live in a capitalist system. But we can choose how we live in that system.

"Greed is good" is now an iconic phrase, summing up an era. But I would argue that the really key phrase is "growth is good" -- the automatic underlying assumption in every economic discussion that more is always better.

I joined many other people in recent years by "downsizing" my life. Not just the "giving up posh restaurants" downsizing that everyone does when hard times hit (I could never afford posh restaurants anyway), but more radical downsizing -- from big city to much smaller house in a small town, far less discretionary spending, a simple lifestyle. We can survive on very modest income. Recession is nowhere near the worry it would have been five years ago. We are to an extent insulated from it all. But we are much "poorer" economically. We have experienced severe "negative growth", as economists would say. But we are happier. It was a good decision.

If significant numbers of people made a similar decision, opting out of wealth generation? It would be economically devastating. Living standards would fall back by at least a generation. Would you be happier? That's the real choice we have today. And everyone can make it for themselves.


Not too far off topic though. :)

You're right -- we choose how we live in that system.

I've got nothing against "capitalism" or growing wealth, but at some point, capitalism starts running amok in ways that are not beneficial.

Our lives are made better by cheap food, but not by cheap junk food that enjoys massive subsidies in sugar and corn costs.

Our lives are better for having cheap clothing, but not by having clothing that costs $10 to manufacture, distribute, and sell at retail being sold for $250. That is greed. Somewhere in there in the costs for that $80 blouse I'm sure there's enough money to pay the worker who made it more than the $0.10 that the worker earned while making it.

People get angry at slum lords because they're in the same area as them, but nobody cares about the corporate "slum lords" because "out of sight, out of mind".

Collectively, we are making some very bad choices in how we live in the system. There's an angel on one shoulder, and a devil on the other, and we choose to listen to the devil because he's screaming a lot louder, and we'd have to make a real effort to listen to the soft-spoken angel.

In chorus:
Angel: We can be sustainable!
Devil: 50% off today only! Buy yours today and SAVE~!

I know sure as Hell I'm guilty.

Slow Down Music - Where I commit thought crimes...

Freedom is the right to be wrong, not the right to do wrong. - John Diefenbaker

Renegade

  • Charter Member
  • Joined in 2005
  • ***
  • Posts: 13,220
  • Tell me something you don't know...
    • View Profile
    • Renegade Minds
    • Donate to Member
Re: Let's face it: the ebook market is FUBAR, thanks to pure greed
« Reply #21 on: February 04, 2011, 08:14:28 PM »
I sound terribly one-sided there... (Well, that's pretty normal. :) )

A large number of my friends are "high net-worth individuals". They have not just money, but wealth. They want for nothing and pretty much get to do whatever they feel like whenever they like.

They're also some of the most principled and decent people that I know.

I also have friends that are poor and principled.

I'd much rather be rich and principled. :)

My point is that "evil" doesn't have to go along with "wealth" or "growth".

One friend is quite wealthy and doesn't need to work. However, he does. His approach though is very different. He starts out thinking how he can help people, then goes on from there. He also maintains that attitude in his businesses. He has done very well for himself doing that.

Some other friends (a couple) do the same in their business. It works for them. He has his own business (that takes about 30~45 minutes a day for him) and does very well at it (currency trading - FOREX). He participates in her business though out of interest as in her business she focuses on helping people. And she does very, very well.

It can be done. You can get rich helping people!

GDT certainly hasn't made me rich, but that's where it started. I had a problem and needed a solution, and figured it would be good to help other people as well. I was very pleasantly surprised when people started paying me for it. :D

I fantasize about all kinds of "evil/greedy" schemes to get rich. I simply can't do them though. It's not in me. I may talk about them... But I just couldn't ever follow through. I sometimes wish I could though.

Anyways, just wanted to put that out there that helping people can make you rich. :D

Slow Down Music - Where I commit thought crimes...

Freedom is the right to be wrong, not the right to do wrong. - John Diefenbaker

Paul Keith

  • Member
  • Joined in 2008
  • **
  • Posts: 1,982
    • View Profile
    • Donate to Member
Re: Let's face it: the ebook market is FUBAR, thanks to pure greed
« Reply #22 on: February 04, 2011, 09:01:17 PM »
That's how capitalism works. There are alternatives...

Like what?

I can't see an alternative. (Practically that is, though it is *possible* to imagine counterfactuals.)

Capitalism is the new dictator. You either follow it, or perish. There are no alternatives and there are no choices.

Everyone, including the big corporations, is caught in its grasp. Governments are powerless to change the model. Even in "communist" countries, capitalism is alive and well. If you don't believe me, visit a few.

It's an overwhelming system, and it's dictating behavior for corporations. They do not have a choice in the matter. They MUST be greedy.

"All problems [in computer science] can be solved by another level of indirection." David Wheeler (de-emphasis added) :D

Since we're going to the philosophical side of the issue, I personally feel it's the opposite and socialism is the modern day dictator. (although not too modern)

Not in the scare monger version of socialism but in the way corporations are both the giver and receiver of all the elite staff and all the elite development and it's much harder to be "entrepreneurs" or radicals.

The oldest visible example is probably the minimum wage debate but let's connect it with more modern issues of DRM for example.

Why is it that most of this generation doesn't want to pay for an item? Because they don't see enough value to paying for it and it's becoming safer and safer to test trial a full program and this generation wants to invest in peer pressure over premium items and they view these well-hyped items as premium ones over the random gamble of trusting in closed-sourced companies.

It's not that there wasn't this phenomena before but now there are actually free alternatives that are satisfactory enough. If capitalism was the dictator, then corporations would wise up and step up their premium products.

Instead we have this idea that "reducing profits" is akin to "increasing profits". To me that's very socialist in the sense that the victim (in which these publishers feel they belong to because they were spoiled by the older model) needs to be entitled to "protect" or "gain" something.

...and it's not just a one side issue. The reason this generation also wants to pay for less quality is because they have been spoiled to want "more" and "more" so cheaper or free equals more money to spend on more items. If this were a capitalistic dictatorship, consumers would see a need and become more entreprenurial prosumers and a group would arise that would be different from the bestsellers category but have equal pull. Instead these are mostly delegated to the rare successful self-marketer. The end result thus is that there isn't as large a support for DRM-free as much as there is a complaint for DRM items and hence it's not as easy to penetrate the market because the market still demands items from the old model but "cheaper".

Finally you look at the original idea of capitalism and you'll see that the general idea of more competition was always to bring it to a breaking point where certain older concepts eventually become free whether it be from complimentary tickets up to free IPAD give aways. Competition was always supposed to head this way under capitalism and currency wasn't supposed to be "entitlement" or "right to bail out and prevent progress".

It's really more of a socialistic dictatorship. People want to be entitled to bonuses, discount coupons, merchandise...and if this means that technology could make it cheaper - then it's a "cheap alternative" demand not really an "e-book" or hell... a "book". Yet e-books in order to reach critical mass needs to be demanded as clear cut e-books. Hardware readers and open formats may push the demand but there has to be a meaning to the supply beyond the supply of "cheaper books". An identity much similar to notetakers, outliners and budget managers where text is not an alternative to be put there but rather a necessary productivity boost while at the same time being addictive and share friendly even to people who can't afford the readers or don't know much about the formats.

Renegade

  • Charter Member
  • Joined in 2005
  • ***
  • Posts: 13,220
  • Tell me something you don't know...
    • View Profile
    • Renegade Minds
    • Donate to Member
Re: Let's face it: the ebook market is FUBAR, thanks to pure greed
« Reply #23 on: February 04, 2011, 09:13:33 PM »
Since we're going to the philosophical side of the issue, I personally feel it's the opposite and socialism is the modern day dictator. (although not too modern)

I read a few times, but I'm missing it. I'm not sure how you see socialism as the modern dictator.

I meant things in a practical sense. i.e. Compared to the US, Canada is a socialist country, but it is still very much run as a capitalist economy.

Do we have a Red Herring here? Not sure.
Slow Down Music - Where I commit thought crimes...

Freedom is the right to be wrong, not the right to do wrong. - John Diefenbaker

kyrathaba

  • N.A.N.Y. Organizer
  • Honorary Member
  • Joined in 2006
  • **
  • Posts: 3,120
    • View Profile
    • Donate to Member
Re: Let's face it: the ebook market is FUBAR, thanks to pure greed
« Reply #24 on: February 04, 2011, 09:49:56 PM »
Quote
Our lives are better for having cheap clothing, but not by having clothing that costs $10 to manufacture, distribute, and sell at retail being sold for $250. That is greed. Somewhere in there in the costs for that $80 blouse I'm sure there's enough money to pay the worker who made it more than the $0.10 that the worker earned while making it.

+1.

One of the most horrible examples of capitalistic greed is our pharmaceutical/health-insurance industry.  I list them together, since they're in bed together, completely.  It's ridiculous that there are medications on the market, which people desperately need, that see a markup of 1,000% to (in some cases) up to 8,000+% their cost-of-production.  There's a happy-medium in there somewhere, wherein the companies could make healthy profits, yet still make medications moderately affordable for people.  But greed is the antithesis of caring about others; instead, it is self-aggrandizement in its most despicable form.