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Last post Author Topic: WikiLeaks: Important petition for all Australians and supporters of free speech  (Read 9374 times)

Fred Nerd

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I think we all know the Wikileaks story.
Now he's being branded as a terrorist before charges have even been laid.
This is not good for someone who's innovation supported freedom and democracy.

Please help by signing this petition for Get Up.

http://www.getup.org...aks?dc=1471,527677,3


Eóin

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I really don't agree with all the accusations flying about, but nonetheless this article- Wikileaks are for-hire mercenaries - Cryptome raised some interesting questions.

wraith808

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I don't support an organization trying to force a government outside of the systems set in place by the citizens of said country to be more 'transparent'.  In the case of whistle blowing or foul play, there is some leeway.  But these latest leaks?  There's really no excuse, especially considering the amount of damage that could be caused.  It might not happen, but is that really worth the risk for questionable gain?

Fred Nerd

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Looks like a it follows a quote of someone I once read "no matter which side of the fight your on, there's always someone who you wish was on the other side"
What I mean is: I totally hate the governments (esp. the Australian one) and everything else who try to stop freedom of speech and anything like it.
In defending Wikileaks we are defending that.

Its a pity we are also defending someone who probably deserves what he is getting. BUT if he is not given a fair trial it has set a precedent for others with more reputable and honest motives to be taken down the same way for interests of business and government (of any country).

Interesting article, Eoin, and I agree that he's probably not a hero. But we can't let the authorities play foul because of it. You can't fight corruption with corruption.

JavaJones

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I don't really see any "interesting questions" in that article, and I'm not sure on what basis one can yet decide what Mr. Assange "deserves". I do not suppose his motives are entirely virtuous, nor that Wikileaks may be a totally public-interest group. But neither have I seen much evidence to suggest otherwise, except broad and serious accusations with 0 details, much less proof, from someone who *founded and runs a competing site*. Let's not forget that anyone willing to do what these people are doing has to be, yes, dedicated, yes perhaps a bit fearless, but also quite often *a bit nuts*. The Cryptome guy certainly sounds so.

Assange deserves his day in court, and to be considered innocent until proven guilty (and let's remember the charges are not related whatsoever to the validity of the Wikileaks venture).

Wikileaks deserves to continue publishing information of significant interest to the public until and unless the good done by that starts to be outweighed by any negatives caused. So far there are little or no truly negative consequences that I'm aware of. None of the scare mongering predictions of governments worldwide have come to pass yet, that agents will be exposed and killed, that the leaks are "putting peoples lives at risk".

Wikileaks is showing that the people and organizations we have entrusted with maintaining the structure of our society and the sanctity of our lives and rights have abused that trust, time and again. *Those* people, those who have already demonstrated repeated, flagrant, and egregious abuse of trust must re-earn that trust. Their immediate protests fall on deaf ears for me, and until Wikileaks shows a similar disregard for the trust of the public and the power they hold in their hands, I'll continue to appreciate what they do.

- Oshyan
« Last Edit: December 10, 2010, 12:06:23 AM by JavaJones »

mouser

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To help put wikileaks in historical perspective i suggest everyone watch:

The Most Dangerous Man in America: Daniel Ellsberg and the Pentagon Papers
http://movies.netfli...123269?trkid=2361637

The cases definitely are not identical, but it opened my eyes to read from just this week, Ellsberg is quoted as saying "EVERY attack now made on WikiLeaks and Julian Assange was made against me and the release of the Pentagon Papers at the time."

Renegade

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I really have to strongly disagree with some people here.

I see what Justin Assange is doing as an act of heroism.

And, I hope it spreads. Far and wide.

Here's why I think so in a nutshell...


While some Americans may be incensed and upset, Justin has broken no laws. Anywhere.

The key is the "sovereign state". The good old US of A may think that it rules sovereign over the entire planet, solar system, galaxy, universe, and multi-verse, but I'm willing to bet that there are a few non-Americans that disagree and don't really want US laws/policy/mood rammed down their throat (the way Vietnam and Iraq did).

But what I would really like to see is the same thing happen with people in other countries inspired to do the same thing. I'd love to see documents leaked from China.

With enough "tattling" or "ratting out" or leaking or whatever you want to call it, countries and companies would be forced to behave more ethically.

Documents from Wikileaks show how Shell (the oil company) has placed people in the Nigerian government and sheds light on how they suck money out of the country while its people live in abject poverty.

This is a good thing.

I admit that I am a bit radical, but I don't see anything else being done.

I hope that liberty and freedom win here. Punishing Wikileaks and/or Justin Assange amounts to clubbing freedom of speech to death.

Heck, a US congressman wants Wikileaks to be branded as a "Foreign Terrorist Organization". Huh? WTF? If we don't like what you have to say, then you're a terrorist? It's patently clear that if the US doesn't like you, you're a terrorist. F**k reality. You're a terrorist. F**k you. F**k your family. See you in Guantanamo, punk.

Really. WTF is that? Once you are branded a "terrorist", you are no longer protected by basic human rights in the US. You're treated by an entirely different set of "rules".


I don't really see any "interesting questions" in that article, and I'm not sure on what basis one can yet decide what Mr. Assange "deserves". I do not suppose his motives are entirely virtuous, nor that Wikileaks may be a totally public-interest group. But neither have I seen much evidence to suggest otherwise, except broad and serious accusations with 0 details, much less proof, from someone who *founded and runs a competing site*. Let's not forget that anyone willing to do what these people are doing has to be, yes, dedicated, yes perhaps a bit fearless, but also quite often *a bit nuts*. The Cryptome guy certainly sounds so.

Assange deserves his day in court, and to be considered innocent until proven guilty (and let's remember the charges are not related whatsoever to the validity of the Wikileaks venture).

Wikileaks deserves to continue publishing information of significant interest to the public until and unless the good done by that starts to be outweighed by any negatives caused. So far there are little or no truly negative consequences that I'm aware of. None of the scare mongering predictions of governments worldwide have come to pass yet, that agents will be exposed and killed, that the leaks are "putting peoples lives at risk".

Wikileaks is showing that the people and organizations we have entrusted with maintaining the structure of our society and the sanctity of our lives and rights have abused that trust, time and again. *Those* people, those who have already demonstrated repeated, flagrant, and egregious abuse of trust must re-earn that trust. Their immediate protests fall on deaf ears for me, and until Wikileaks shows a similar disregard for the trust of the public and the power they hold in their hands, I'll continue to appreciate what they do.

- Oshyan

+1!

Quote
Assange deserves his day in court, and to be considered innocent until proven guilty (and let's remember the charges are not related whatsoever to the validity of the Wikileaks venture).


I think that anyone that believes he will get a fair hearing is naive. He's been branded, and the only thing left is his sentencing.

Fact is, he hasn't broken any laws. If I can quote myself:

Quote
The key is the "sovereign state". The good old US of A may think that it rules sovereign over the entire planet, solar system, galaxy, universe, and multi-verse, but I'm willing to bet that there are a few non-Americans that disagree and don't really want US laws/policy/mood rammed down their throat (the way Vietnam and Iraq did).
...
It's patently clear that if the US doesn't like you, you're a terrorist.

Any trial the poor guy gets will be a show trial at best.



Quote
Wikileaks is showing that the people and organizations we have entrusted with maintaining the structure of our society and the sanctity of our lives and rights have abused that trust, time and again. *Those* people, those who have already demonstrated repeated, flagrant, and egregious abuse of trust must re-earn that trust. Their immediate protests fall on deaf ears for me, and until Wikileaks shows a similar disregard for the trust of the public and the power they hold in their hands, I'll continue to appreciate what they do.

That was very well put.

()
||


That was very bad ASCII art of me clapping my hands.

I do hope that this is the start of holding our governments responsible and accountable. They've seem to have forgotten who they are supposed to serve.
Slow Down Music - Where I commit thought crimes...

Freedom is the right to be wrong, not the right to do wrong. - John Diefenbaker

Renegade

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To help put wikileaks in historical perspective i suggest everyone watch:

The Most Dangerous Man in America: Daniel Ellsberg and the Pentagon Papers
http://movies.netfli...123269?trkid=2361637

The cases definitely are not identical, but it opened my eyes to read from just this week, Ellsberg is quoted as saying "EVERY attack now made on WikiLeaks and Julian Assange was made against me and the release of the Pentagon Papers at the time."

Thanks for pointing that out. I will have to see if I can get my hands on a copy.

Slow Down Music - Where I commit thought crimes...

Freedom is the right to be wrong, not the right to do wrong. - John Diefenbaker

Renegade

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Interesting:

http://www.smh.com.a...-20101210-18sv3.html

Quote
Mr Burnside said: ''I think, standing back from it, what we have seen is what happens to a citizen who breaks the unwritten law about embarrassing the governments of powerful countries … If they want to avoid embarrassment, they shouldn't shut down freedom of information. They should stop acting embarrassingly.''

Nicely put.

It's pretty simple. Don't do things that you'd be ashamed for people to know about.
Slow Down Music - Where I commit thought crimes...

Freedom is the right to be wrong, not the right to do wrong. - John Diefenbaker

Fred Nerd

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Ahh, thats better. I *thought* the DC crowd would be on the side of freedom and openness.
I was a bit worried about the first responders there :)


Now, has anyone signed the petition? It may or may not help. But apparently they've raised $25000 which is enough for a full page ad in the New York Times.

How that will help, I don't know. You Americans can wrap up your fish and chips in a lot of Australian dollars :)

Renegade

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There is quite a variety of opinions on things here, with some people prioritizing things differently. The nice thing is that everyone has the decency to play nice. :)

The Wikileaks issue really is a political one, but it stems from free speech, which is something that we hold dear, and especially in the tech-centric crowd. (Richard Stallman is one of the most vocal and important figures there.)

I've not signed as I'm not Australian. Perhaps I should anyways... I'll get that done when I get back in... Gotta run...
Slow Down Music - Where I commit thought crimes...

Freedom is the right to be wrong, not the right to do wrong. - John Diefenbaker

4wd

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Now, has anyone signed the petition? It may or may not help. But apparently they've raised $25000 which is enough for a full page ad in the New York Times.

At the very least they could encode a few more cables into the ad in such a way as to only appear when looked at in a mirror.

I haven't signed because I am an Australian and as such suffer from the "she'll be right mate" school of apathy.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2010, 05:40:46 AM by 4wd »

Carol Haynes

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Rock on Renegade - couldn't agree more.

The WikiLeaks website has been effectively put of of business to the relief of governments around the world - which shows just how terrified they are of true accountability. By the way they are using precisely the tactics used by protesters against corporations trying to suppress WikiLeaks. It is strange when these tactics are used against freedom of speech it is apparently a good thing but when protesters use precisely the same tactics (namely DDOS) against the people trying to block freedoms they are branded as cyber terrorists and the lawyers start crawling out of the sewers.

The great thing is that despite WikiLeaks website being permanently denied access to the majority of people (esp. in the UK where are freedoms are more like communist China these days) there are dozens of mirror sites and the number is growing all the time.

If anyone wants to see a list of mirrors and see what is being published to judge for yourself go to http://wikileaks.ser...ius.net/mirrors.html


cmpm

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Reminds me of the book '8 days of the condor'.
Later made into a movie, '3 days of the Condor'.
Quite prophetic, or was it already in play.

The UK has contributed much to free speech.
How soon is it forgotten?

http://www.phrases.o...upts-absolutely.html

Carol Haynes

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If you value freedom of speech and information - and want to make politicians truly accountable sign this petition ...

http://www.avaaz.org...857353992&v=7749

tsaint

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As Julian et al have now taken it upon themselves to decide public policy on behalf of my government, I think it would be rather hypocritical of them if they didn't release ALL of their own documentation. Relevance to anything, discrimination about what material they release is not to be considered, I want it all.
 So when Julian pubishes his tax returns, all material pertinent to his private life, then I'll be more favourably disposed to him and his organization.
Or even if he seemed to display some judgement and discrimination, I might, rather than a naive and immature "everything must be public" policy

Renegade

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As Julian et al have now taken it upon themselves to decide public policy on behalf of my government, I think it would be rather hypocritical of them if they didn't release ALL of their own documentation. Relevance to anything, discrimination about what material they release is not to be considered, I want it all.
 So when Julian pubishes his tax returns, all material pertinent to his private life, then I'll be more favourably disposed to him and his organization.
Or even if he seemed to display some judgement and discrimination, I might, rather than a naive and immature "everything must be public" policy

Your wish is Openleaks.org's command. Starting tomorrow.

As Julian et al have now taken it upon themselves to decide public policy on behalf of my government

That's a door better left closed here. e.g.:

As ________ has now taken it upon themselves to decide _________ on behalf of __________.

But Openleaks will be working towards transparency, which is VERY good. I think they may be the "go to" people in the near future.

I don't think Wikileaks is necessarily going to be important in itself as for the tasks it carries out going forward. It's done the most important thing, which is get the ball rolling, and inspire others. Police in Egypt have been arrested for torturing people thanks to this kind of inspiration.

Any organization that picks up the ball and carries on, like Openleaks, is going to be a great thing.

Finally organizations will need to consider what would happen if they became transparent.

That it is happening to the USA now is really neither here nor there. The USA makes a great target, so I suppose that it is the best place to start as it is/would garner the most media attention, which is most important. Hopefully we'll see the same thing happen in other governments and corrupt/evil organizations.

e.g. Shell got burned for more nastiness in Nigeria thanks to Wikileaks. Everyone knows that oil companies are exploitative and evil. (Can we all say "BP"?) But having the evidence laid out flat with credibility lets a few people take off their tinfoil hats. Evidence is the key there. (Sustained pressure to stop being evil is the next step as far as I can see.)



Slow Down Music - Where I commit thought crimes...

Freedom is the right to be wrong, not the right to do wrong. - John Diefenbaker

wraith808

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The thing is, I don't mind leaks if they expose wrong doing that should be made public, after appropriate measures have been taken to take it through proper channels and nothing has been done.  But leaking just because 'information should be free' is complete BS IMO.  Even the openleaks.org will still be a front, because they won't make *everything* public.  There's no way.  Unless they tape everything 24 hours a day while they work (which would then make the information useless because of information overload), there's no way.

Renegade

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The thing is, I don't mind leaks if they expose wrong doing that should be made public, after appropriate measures have been taken to take it through proper channels and nothing has been done.  But leaking just because 'information should be free' is complete BS IMO.  Even the openleaks.org will still be a front, because they won't make *everything* public.  There's no way.  Unless they tape everything 24 hours a day while they work (which would then make the information useless because of information overload), there's no way.

We'll probably never see eye-to-eye on this.

I don't think that there needs to be any "wrong" committed for a leak to be useful. They expose attitudes and actions. Some actions are neither good nor bad, but are of interest as they can have wider implications.

I'm thrilled at the prospect of having a truly open society with transparency in government. We need it. Badly.

As for US government transparency, I hope that's just the beginning. I've gone on about all that before though, so I'll skip it.

I don't necessarily subscribe to all information being free. Book authors, writers, musicians... The list goes on. But that's pretty off topic. I do believe in freedom of information about what our governments are doing.


For example...

China is very closed. But we KNOW that they kidnap, torture, mutilate, and murder their own people. (Falun Gong)

If it happens "there", what's to stop it from happening "here"? It HAPPENS. And that's very scary. Keeping things transparent and open is a very good thing.


I'm not "anti-american" at all. I love the USA and think it has been a blessing in many ways. When I see things that stink though, I can't shut up about it. Yeah... I have a big mouth and I don't mix too many words. I prefer good old fashioned expletives. :D

I read an article from some fellow accusing Wikileaks of peddling stolen goods.

Quote
In the Wikileaks saga, the peddling is of stolen goods

Source

He's actually got some good things to say, but I think he's off base with "stolen goods". That's a matter of opinion I suppose. Not sure. I can't see "espionage" being theft. I also can't see it being espionage when he's not in the territory of jurisdiction. It's fuzzy.

Anyone remember a while back a thread about new powers to shut down the Interwebs? Scary. Are there any cables that would relate to that? Are they right or wrong or neither? Just information?


I'd rather see secrets blabbed and have an open society. But then again, I don't do things that I'm afraid to admit to.


Slow Down Music - Where I commit thought crimes...

Freedom is the right to be wrong, not the right to do wrong. - John Diefenbaker

kyrathaba

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Quote
From JavaJones: Wikileaks is showing that the people and organizations we have entrusted with maintaining the structure of our society and the sanctity of our lives and rights have abused that trust, time and again.

Agree!

Quote
From Renegade: "...with enough "tattling"...companies would be forced to behave more ethically."

Agree!!


wraith808

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We'll probably never see eye-to-eye on this.
Perhaps you're right.  But I continue to try to see the point.

I don't think that there needs to be any "wrong" committed for a leak to be useful. They expose attitudes and actions. Some actions are neither good nor bad, but are of interest as they can have wider implications.

I'm thrilled at the prospect of having a truly open society with transparency in government. We need it. Badly.

If there were only one government, or if all governments played by one set of rules, or if the people that governed weren't human with human frailties, I'd agree.

But barring one of these occurrences, living in a world with multiple governments run by humans with very real human failings and ambitions, the only way that could happen is to the detriment of the government that adopted this stance.  Not from the people that want to work with the government, but those that do work against it.  What it seems is that people don't realize or conveniently forget when such things come up that naughty men that plan evil deeds still run about.  And that's just to speak of the known enemies; at certain times allies can be worse than our enemies.  And to enter into dealings with such people with everything that you know, and even worse, everything that you don't know in full public view is to handicap yourself.

JavaJones

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But barring one of these occurrences, living in a world with multiple governments run by humans with very real human failings and ambitions, the only way that could happen is to the detriment of the government that adopted this stance.  Not from the people that want to work with the government, but those that do work against it.  What it seems is that people don't realize or conveniently forget when such things come up that naughty men that plan evil deeds still run about.  And that's just to speak of the known enemies; at certain times allies can be worse than our enemies.  And to enter into dealings with such people with everything that you know, and even worse, everything that you don't know in full public view is to handicap yourself.

How, specifically, is it a "handicap", and is that only true because of the way politics is conducted today? If so, can that change to remove this "handicap", or do you consider it a fundamental reality of international relations?

- Oshyan

Perry Mowbray

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I simply do not like lying. I don't mind people making mistakes, but I hate being told one thing when in fact it's something different -- especially when it's in the public sphere.

Transparency helps stop that.

I liked that quote: "information is the currency of democracy"; which of course explains why the spin doctor is the most important person in your arsenal. Maybe it also explains what's gone wrong with democracy?


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Reminds me of the book '8 days of the condor'.
Later made into a movie, '3 days of the Condor'.
Quite prophetic, or was it already in play.

The UK has contributed much to free speech.
How soon is it forgotten?

http://www.phrases.o...upts-absolutely.html

OT:  Ahem... That's "Six Days of the Condor"... I still have my original 1974 copy. Great book, and not too bad of a movie. 8)

Thanks!

Jim

J-Mac

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The thing is, I don't mind leaks if they expose wrong doing that should be made public, after appropriate measures have been taken to take it through proper channels and nothing has been done.  But leaking just because 'information should be free' is complete BS IMO.  Even the openleaks.org will still be a front, because they won't make *everything* public.  There's no way.  Unless they tape everything 24 hours a day while they work (which would then make the information useless because of information overload), there's no way.

But would you really leave it up to Assange - or whomever actually leaks documents to him - to separate the wheat from the chaff and "expose wrong doing" only? Just who is the arbiter of wrong vs. right info that "should be made public"? The government that classified non-secret-related but embarrassing documents? Obviously that hasn’t worked.

Thank you.

Jim