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Author Topic: Desktop Linux: The dream is dead  (Read 11506 times)
40hz
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« Reply #25 on: November 03, 2010, 02:48:51 PM »


It's the programs stupid!

I only stick with windows (xp) because the big program makers, (among my fav. progs are ADobePhotoshop and premiere) dont make progs for linux varieties.

Very true...

But why settle for one OS when you can have two - or more? Especially since Linux usually doesn't cost more than the time and bandwidth needed to grab an ISO?

I'm not a fan of dual-booting. But I am a big advocate for using swappable hard drives.

I'm running different flavors of Windows, Nix, and OS X - all on a single machine. A quick shutdown, swap, and reboot, and I'm in business. And all without the need to mess with boot-loaders and weird non-native drive partitioning schemes. Running them all on one box also makes for a less crowded and more energy efficient workspace.

A free SkyDrive account and a "permanently plugged-in" 16GB USB Flash drive (picked up on sale for $23! Yay! ) handles file transfers back and forth between the various OSes.

Like f0dder so aptly said: The right OS for the job, and the right hardware for the OS smiley

Sweet. Cool
« Last Edit: November 03, 2010, 03:18:22 PM by 40hz » Logged

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zridling
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« Reply #26 on: November 03, 2010, 03:19:29 PM »

Not a fan of dual-booting either. I do keep an old Windows machine in the corner. The last time I needed to turn it on was April 2010. I write it down on a card and leave it near the keyboard just so I'll know!
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« Reply #27 on: November 03, 2010, 04:19:02 PM »

It's the free VMware Player stupid! cheesy

Given how powerful computers are now, it's pretty easy to run a Linux distro in VMware. That's where I'm running Ubuntu at the moment. Saves on electricity as well. (I've already got 4 computers running in the house.)
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« Reply #28 on: November 07, 2010, 11:01:19 PM »

Hi Guys,
first I have Nvere loaded linux and got it to work. Have teried over las couple of years but because I an taking courses that teach Fedoria 12 & REDHAT within the next few quaters I should learn somethimg.

One thing I know now is that embedded programs in everyday products are mostly Linux based. Also a lot og the programs in the server worlds are Linux.
Ths place for Linux man not be Desktop but whjat about the rest of the world?

Sorry just thinking out loud and hope the muslems dont find me. You know that twerp mohammad was an fool. 
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zridling
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« Reply #29 on: November 09, 2010, 04:24:16 AM »

Matt Hartley has a take on this topic, and in the process makes many of the points Josh has made over the years:

My switch to Linux wasn't an immediate one. But what was apparent early on during my Linux adoption was my motivation for making the switch in the first place – no longer wanting to use Windows. This is where I think the confusion begins for most new Linux adopters. As we make the switch, we must fight the inherent urge to automatically begin comparing the new desktop experience to our previous experiences with Windows. It's a completely different set of circumstances, folks.

Slashdot follows up on the discusssion:
http://linux.slashdot.org...-Windows-Matter-For-Linux
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« Reply #30 on: November 09, 2010, 04:43:42 AM »

Matt Hartley has a take on this topic, and in the process makes many of the points Josh has made over the years:

My switch to Linux wasn't an immediate one. But what was apparent early on during my Linux adoption was my motivation for making the switch in the first place – no longer wanting to use Windows. This is where I think the confusion begins for most new Linux adopters. As we make the switch, we must fight the inherent urge to automatically begin comparing the new desktop experience to our previous experiences with Windows. It's a completely different set of circumstances, folks.


I've grown to dislike the idea of comparing Windows and Linux as I feel that it's a lot like comparing apples to oranges. Both run software and each of them has its strengths and weaknesses. Trying to trump one over the other is time wasted in my opinion and leaves you with no benefit. It took me years to fully comprehend this, but the fact is that expecting one to behave like the other is just a silly waste of time

Slashdot follows up on the discusssion:
http://linux.slashdot.org...-Windows-Matter-For-Linux

Interesting.

I liked this:

Quote
I've grown to dislike the idea of comparing Windows and Linux as I feel that it's a lot like comparing apples to oranges. Both run software and each of them has its strengths and weaknesses. Trying to trump one over the other is time wasted in my opinion and leaves you with no benefit. It took me years to fully comprehend this, but the fact is that expecting one to behave like the other is just a silly waste of time.

The thing I didn't like was:

Quote
my motivation for making the switch in the first place – no longer wanting to use Windows.

I think that's a piss-poor reason.

I wish I were independently wealthy, because then I'd switch to Linux and not care. I can't though. The world runs on Windows, and I need it to put food on the table. Sad But I don't really care too much. I really just want a system that's easy to use, powerful, and let's me "play" the way I want to. Both Linux and Windows do that, though admittedly for me Windows does a better job because the way I like to play involves Visual Studio.

My motivations for Linux are purely philosophical. I like the idea of freedom and not being chained to someone else's idea of what's good for me. There's enough of that BS in the "real" world, so I sure as hell don't want to put up with it in the digital world. smiley

Sigh... I'm still not where I'd like to be though, so I'm still chained to whatever OS pulls in the cash.
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« Reply #31 on: November 09, 2010, 09:50:40 AM »

Well linux stopped attracting me when major software corps didn't came up with any paid software so far. There are very few paid apps for linux and i guess too much clutter in license and open-source issue is the reason behind it. Besides that if OS is free, how come many customers are going to pay me for building custom apps for them (i came across many such people who think like this i.e. why pay for apps if OS is free ?). Consultancy, maintenance, support will not sustain the developers business(atleast solo developer will have hard time).
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« Reply #32 on: November 09, 2010, 08:29:13 PM »

Well linux stopped attracting me when major software corps didn't came up with any paid software so far. There are very few paid apps for linux and i guess too much clutter in license and open-source issue is the reason behind it. Besides that if OS is free, how come many customers are going to pay me for building custom apps for them (i came across many such people who think like this i.e. why pay for apps if OS is free ?). Consultancy, maintenance, support will not sustain the developers business(atleast solo developer will have hard time).

I think you've really nailed a key failure in the Linux community.

The Linux community seems to have attracted too many people that are attracted to "money free" versus "freedom free", and that entire cheapo "I'm not going to pay for anything" mind-set has basically become synonymous with Linux and open source. It's not created a healthy ecosystem for Linux, and Linux has suffered for that.

What is really needed is for more developers to write software for Linux to make Linux a more attractive platform for people to adopt. At the same time, the lack of users, or rather the lack of users willing to pay for software makes Linux unattractive for developers. Why write software for unappreciative people? (Saying "thank you" really only has meaning when it's backed up by cold hard cash that puts food on the table. Most merchants don't take print outs of user testimonials. At least the last restaurant I went do declined to accept them... Maybe it's different somewhere else. tongue )

So it's catch-22.

Add to it all the massive fragmentation in the Linux community, there's nothing but confusion for people. Ubuntu? SuSe? Fedora? Linspire? WTF?

For a lot of purposes, Linux just isn't a viable OS because there's just not enough software for it. Sure you can play with Audacity, but you can't use Audacity for anything but playtime. It's a good piece of software for amateurs and hobbyists, but it's not up to snuff for work. The bar is continually being raised, and it can only become more difficult in the future to bridge that divide.

I think that the best hope for Linux at the moment lies with .NET and Mono. If more developers can target Linux with very little additional cost to themselves, then having more software available for Linux will make it more attractive. It's a matter of costs. You can't spend 6 months or more in development for 3 people that won't pay anyways. Despite what some people think, developing software requires a large skill set, lots of time, and it flat out isn't free. Mono makes it easier to develop software for Linux at a minimal cost to developers. I don't see anything else really being viable on a massive scale. (RealBasic and other cross-platform development tools have smaller communities, and while they are good, the size presents a problem.)

So, I'm back to rooting for Novell. I hope that we continue to see more great advances from Miguel and his team. They're what I see as the key to an open and free future for computing.




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zridling
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« Reply #33 on: November 10, 2010, 07:31:07 AM »

The Linux community seems to have attracted too many people that are attracted to "money free" versus "freedom free", and that entire cheapo "I'm not going to pay for anything" mind-set has basically become synonymous with Linux and open source. It's not created a healthy ecosystem for Linux, and Linux has suffered for that.
That's a licensing/distribution issue, though. Why pay for something that was built to be free? Companies have tried (Linspire, Xandros, Corel, etc.), and have failed. I really appreciate not having to upgrade on a corporation's [profit] schedule. No matter, public institutions (libraries, schools, park services) and governments (local, state, federal) should not be spending taxpayer dollars on proprietary software, ever. Especially not using proprietary formats for their files. Any future for public files in the cloud will depend on open data formats.

What is really needed is for more developers to write software for Linux to make Linux a more attractive platform for people to adopt. At the same time, the lack of users, or rather the lack of users willing to pay for software makes Linux unattractive for developers. Why write software for unappreciative people? So it's catch-22.
More developers to write desktop software. For example, if Adobe had a Linux version of Photoshop, that would make a world of difference. But we settle for GIMP, however quirky it is. There was so much cross-platform software between Windows and Linux four years ago that I made the switch quite comfortably. Which specific programs would you like to see?

Add to it all the massive fragmentation in the Linux community, there's nothing but confusion for people. Ubuntu? SuSe? Fedora? Linspire? WTF?
You say fragmentation I say choice. Ubuntu is making a move to lock-in certain programs for its distribution. I don't agree with it since it's been tried before and didn't take, but it's their prerogative. Intel and Nokia are working to unify the mobile side with MeeGo, while Novell has long tried to standardize the certification of applications for distributions. However, any standardization faces the issue of getting developers to cooperate. If a standard is deemed too restrictive, it'll be difficult to get a good base of developers creating applications that follow it.

For a lot of purposes, Linux just isn't a viable OS because there's just not enough software for it. Sure you can play with Audacity, but you can't use Audacity for anything but playtime. It's a good piece of software for amateurs and hobbyists, but it's not up to snuff for work. The bar is continually being raised, and it can only become more difficult in the future to bridge that divide.
Okay, that's an example. For people who've downloaded it 70 million times, however, it is cross-platform, available for Windows, Mac OS X, BSD, free, open source, and good enough.

I think that the best hope for Linux at the moment lies with .NET and Mono. If more developers can target Linux with very little additional cost to themselves, then having more software available for Linux will make it more attractive. It's a matter of costs. You can't spend 6 months or more in development for 3 people that won't pay anyways. Despite what some people think, developing software requires a large skill set, lots of time, and it flat out isn't free. Mono makes it easier to develop software for Linux at a minimal cost to developers. I don't see anything else really being viable on a massive scale. (RealBasic and other cross-platform development tools have smaller communities, and while they are good, the size presents a problem.) So, I'm back to rooting for Novell. I hope that we continue to see more great advances from Miguel and his team. They're what I see as the key to an open and free future for computing.
Except when you go the Mono route, you start down the slippery slope of dipping a toe into Microsoft's patent bullshit, which as we know, any corporation is more than happy to spend a decade suing the living crap out of anyone that gets near their IP. For me, it's not worth the headache, even though Miguel de Icaza has done some wonderful things for us all.
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« Reply #34 on: November 10, 2010, 07:43:36 AM »

Except when you go the Mono route, you start down the slippery slope of dipping a toe into Microsoft's patent bullshit, which as we know, any corporation is more than happy to spend a decade suing the living crap out of anyone that gets near their IP. For me, it's not worth the headache, even though Miguel de Icaza has done some wonderful things for us all.

+1  Thmbsup Thmbsup Thmbsup

Mono is a neutron bomb waiting to be detonated. I think it's only a matter of time before Microsoft shows its fangs despite whatever "gentleman's agreements" and "unofficial "understandings" it has with the Mono community. Or more to the point, that the Mono community thinks it has with Microsoft.

And all that will happen very shortly after a huge part of the Nix app world has grown completely dependent on Mono and/or Linux gains enough overall desktop market share for Microsoft to see it as a creditable threat to its business.

The old Microsoft software strategy used to be: Embrace - Extend - Extinguish!

Now that so much of their capacity for innovation seems to be used up, the new paradigm will be: Tolerate - Litigate - License!

 Cool

« Last Edit: November 10, 2010, 07:48:10 AM by 40hz » Logged

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« Reply #35 on: November 10, 2010, 01:14:19 PM »

    Well linux stopped attracting me when major software corps didn't came up with any paid software so far. There are very few paid apps for linux and i guess too much clutter in license and open-source issue is the reason behind it. Besides that if OS is free, how come many customers are going to pay me for building custom apps for them (i came across many such people who think like this i.e. why pay for apps if OS is free ?). Consultancy, maintenance, support will not sustain the developers business(atleast solo developer will have hard time).

    I think you've really nailed a key failure in the Linux community.

    The Linux community seems to have attracted too many people that are attracted to "money free" versus "freedom free", and that entire cheapo "I'm not going to pay for anything" mind-set has basically become synonymous with Linux and open source. It's not created a healthy ecosystem for Linux, and Linux has suffered for that.

    Sorry, but I have to make a stand and state my opinion that these are BIG misconceptions.
    There is nothing in any license that says you cannot or should not charge money for your work.
    The GPL license only protects the use and distribution of GPL code.
    I have seen software authors give many legitimate reasons why they don't develop for Linux, and "users are cheapskates" is the most LAME excuse you could possibly use.
    Of course that element exists, it even exists in the Windows community (I think you call them "pirates"), but anybody who takes their choice of Linux use as some sort of entitlement to "free everything" is frankly not worth the bother, not the target you'd aim at if you were smart, and I am certain not the majority of the Linux community.

    Personally, I greatly admire the folks who have taken the bold step to open-source their software, and I think those applications are all the better for it.
    Would the Gimp be a better Photoshop contender if it were closed-source?
    I seriously think not.
    Would I buy it if I had to pay for it?
    Sure, if the price was right and the features attractive; no different than any other software.
    Like Zaine said, if Adobe made a feature-for-feature Linux version of Photoshop, you can bet there would be a substantial market for it.
    Not huge of course, (what do you expect from 1% of the desktop market? undecided ) but certainly worth the effort and it would start a nice ball rolling.

    How do I know?

    Just look at a few proofs (admittedly small, but they are real) from the gaming market:
    Linux cheapskates users average donation was almost twice that of the other platforms?
    5, 10, 12% of sales (sales!) coming from users of a platform that only has 1% desktop market share?
    Give me a break...
    • 2- With things like Unigine in active development, the divide between DirectX and OpenGL is narrowing.
      Really.
    • 3- Despite the recent flap about a Steam client coming to Linux, and then suddenly not, I seriously doubt all that effort on Valve's part was for nothing.
    Once they see the demand, you KNOW it'll happen.
    I mean, come on, if there's money to be made, even just 5% more (according to the evidence), why WOULDN'T you?

    I just realized I may have snarked a bit in this post; let it be known I don't mean any malice to anybody, but I do stand by my opinions.
    It's just I very much resent being called out for being cheap just because I use an operating system that's free (as in beer) and I'm sure there are MANY who stand with me.
    There are MANY reasons other than "it's free" that I use Linux and because the web is full of others who have stated those reasons much more eloquently, I will refrain from enumerating them here.
    I open my pocketbook where I can, when I can, and I'm sure that folks who pay for the majority of their software do much the same.

    P.S. Mono can eat my shorts.[/list]
    « Last Edit: November 10, 2010, 05:57:11 PM by Edvard » Logged

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    40hz
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    « Reply #36 on: November 10, 2010, 02:43:11 PM »

    Personally, I greatly admire the folks who have taken the bold step to open-source their software, and I think those applications are all the better for it.
    Would the Gimp be a better Photoshop contender if it were closed-source?
    I seriously think not.
    Would I buy it if I had to pay for it?
    Sure, if the price was right and the features attractive; no different than any other software.
    Like Zaine said, if Adobe made a feature-for-feature Linux version of Photoshop, you can bet there would be a substantial market for it.

    You guys make an excellent point. Because (as has been discussed before) the choice of OS is largely immaterial to most users. What drives adoption is the availability of applications for a given OS. And where there is sufficient expertise to make the choice of OS an issue, there's many in the know that prefer running on top of Linux if possible.

    So why the hesitancy to release commercial Linux applications?

    I think it's a combination of inertia; a desire to avoid multi-platform technical support expenses; a misunderstanding of exactly who uses Linux - and for what; and the fear of jeopardizing cozy developer relations with the likes of Microsoft and Apple more than anything else.

    But that hasn't stopped everybody. Some very high-end, very expensive graphic packages (ex: SoftImage@$3K and Maya@$3K+ per copy) have already released versions that run on Linux.

    Hollywood is also onboard with Linux. And it's not just for the cost savings.

    Quote
    The Road to El Dorado, Antz, Chicken Run, Deep Blue Sea, Star Trek: Insurrection, Fantasia 2000, Men in Black, Hollow Man and many many more, were created with Linux software such as RAYZ, Maya or Shake. Now, don't think all the software used in movie production is free, because most of the applications cost somewhere between $8,000 and $15,000 or even more, but hey, it's Hollywood!

    Another example is the very popular Shrek movie made at the DreamWorks studios, and the renderfarm used has a 1,000+ processors, 80% Linux and 20% IRIX. DreamWorks created a render tower made up of dual 1GHz P3 2GB RAM computers housed in a 1RU (1.75") package stacked 41 units high, which can replace computers consuming 40-50 feet of data center rack space. Also, DreamWorks uses both internally developed programs tailored to the needs of their animation production and commercially available animation software, and because most of their internal developed software was originally created for the SGI IRIX operating system, it's much easier to port the applications to a Linux system, which is much more similar to IRIX than Windows or Mac OS X.

    http://news.softpedia.com...d-Loves-Linux-45571.shtml

    -and-

    Quote
    Weta Digital

    “Linux is an integral part of what we do here at Weta”, says Production Engineering Lead Peter Capelluto. “It's very well suited for the dynamic needs of the visual-effects industry. Our department would have a much more difficult time accomplishing our goals with any other operating system.”

    Weta predominantly uses Linux for our workstations and also for our renderfarm and servers”, says Capelluto. “There are a few applications that require the use of Mac OS X, Windows and Irix. Whenever possible, we use Linux. The open-source nature of Linux and the many Linux applications are a major advantage. We also prefer it for stability, low cost, access control, multiuser capabilities, control and flexibility.” Capelluto's department develops pipeline software, such as the digital asset management system and the distributed resource management system for their renderfarm.

    “We have 500 IBM Blade Servers, 2,560 HP BL2x220C Blade Servers and 1,000 workstations”, says Weta Digital Systems Department Lead Adam Shand. “Ubuntu is our primary render and desktop distro. We also use CentOS, RHEL and Debian.” The workstations are IBM and HP. Weta uses NetApp DataOnTap, NetApp GX, BluArc, Panasas and SGI file servers. Storage is mostly NAS, not SAN. For open-source apps, they use Apache, Perl, Python, MySQL, PostgresSQL, Bind, OpenOffice.org, CUPS, OpenLDAP, Samba, Firefox, Thunderbird, Django, Cacti, Cricket, MRTG and Sun Gridware.

    “We're big fans of open-source code here at Weta”, says Capelluto. “We're utilizing Sun's Grid Engine for distributed resource management and have helped them fix a number of bugs. It's very powerful to be able to improve upon open-source software and to fix any problems you encounter.”

    http://www.linuxjournal.com/article/10301


    « Last Edit: November 10, 2010, 02:46:50 PM by 40hz » Logged

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    « Reply #37 on: November 10, 2010, 06:01:35 PM »

    The Linux community seems to have attracted too many people that are attracted to "money free" versus "freedom free", and that entire cheapo "I'm not going to pay for anything" mind-set has basically become synonymous with Linux and open source. It's not created a healthy ecosystem for Linux, and Linux has suffered for that.
    That's a licensing/distribution issue, though. Why pay for something that was built to be free? Companies have tried (Linspire, Xandros, Corel, etc.), and have failed. I really appreciate not having to upgrade on a corporation's [profit] schedule. No matter, public institutions (libraries, schools, park services) and governments (local, state, federal) should not be spending taxpayer dollars on proprietary software, ever. Especially not using proprietary formats for their files. Any future for public files in the cloud will depend on open data formats.


    This is one of those things that we disagree on. While I fully support open formats, I don't think government should sacrifice interoperability with the world at large.

    I think that government should go with the solution that costs the least. That isn't dependent on whether the software is produced by a commercial or FOSS company. Some FOSS software is more expensive than commercial software. Those decisions need to be made on a case by case basis.

    If using a commercial, proprietary solution costs less, I'm all for it.

    If using a FOSS solution costs less, I'm all for it.

    Governments need to spend our money wisely.

    I would prefer that they use FOSS solutions, but I don't think that they are always the best solution.


    What is really needed is for more developers to write software for Linux to make Linux a more attractive platform for people to adopt. At the same time, the lack of users, or rather the lack of users willing to pay for software makes Linux unattractive for developers. Why write software for unappreciative people? So it's catch-22.
    More developers to write desktop software. For example, if Adobe had a Linux version of Photoshop, that would make a world of difference. But we settle for GIMP, however quirky it is. There was so much cross-platform software between Windows and Linux four years ago that I made the switch quite comfortably. Which specific programs would you like to see?


    Desktop -- Absolutely! I'm 100% on board there!

    For specific programs, Microsoft Office is a must. Or an office suite that is compatible at a professional level. OpenOffice doesn't measure up at the moment. I know... it's unrealistic. But if it were there, I would have the option to us Linux as my primary work machine.

    I'd also like to see some other major packages like the Adobe programs.

    But it's really the massive choice on the Windows platform that's nice. So, more specifically, just plain LOTS~!

    Add to it all the massive fragmentation in the Linux community, there's nothing but confusion for people. Ubuntu? SuSe? Fedora? Linspire? WTF?
    You say fragmentation I say choice.


    For YOU it is choice. For ME it is choice. For the normal people that matter when it comes to mass adoption of a platform, it's not choice... it's confusion.

    Let me make an example with 2 lists. Choose which one you think would make sense for most people:

    List #1:
    • Fedora
    • Redhat
    • Mandrake
    • SuSe
    • opensuse
    • Ubuntu
    • Kubuntu
    • Edubuntu
    • Gobuntu
    • Xubuntu
    • Debian
    • Slackware
    • etc.


    Compare that with this list:

    List #2:
    • Ubuntu Christian Edition
    • Ubuntu Muslim Edition
    • Ubuntu Satanic Edition
    • Ubuntu Jewish Edition (Jewbuntu)


    And heck, let's do 1 last list of ONLY Ubuntu...

    List #3:
    • Ubuntu
    • Kubuntu
    • Edubuntu
    • Gobuntu
    • Xubuntu
    • Ubuntu Gnome
    • Ubuntu KDE
    • Ubuntu Xfce
    • Ubuntu Education Edition
    • Ubuntu Christian Edition
    • Ubuntu Muslim Edition
    • Ubuntu Satanic Edition
    • Ubuntu Jewish Edition (Jubuntu)
    • Debian * (the Ubuntu base)

    Which list makes sense? Well, I'm quite sure that they will make sense to most people here, but will it make sense to Joe Blow out on the street? #2 might. Those are meaningful. Or at least more meaningful.


    That's what I mean. Linux, when you start to look at it from the perspective of an average user, is simply terrifying. Which one should I use? Not a question most people can answer.


    Ubuntu is making a move to lock-in certain programs for its distribution. I don't agree with it since it's been tried before and didn't take, but it's their prerogative. Intel and Nokia are working to unify the mobile side with MeeGo, while Novell has long tried to standardize the certification of applications for distributions. However, any standardization faces the issue of getting developers to cooperate. If a standard is deemed too restrictive, it'll be difficult to get a good base of developers creating applications that follow it.

    For a lot of purposes, Linux just isn't a viable OS because there's just not enough software for it. Sure you can play with Audacity, but you can't use Audacity for anything but playtime. It's a good piece of software for amateurs and hobbyists, but it's not up to snuff for work. The bar is continually being raised, and it can only become more difficult in the future to bridge that divide.
    Okay, that's an example. For people who've downloaded it 70 million times, however, it is cross-platform, available for Windows, Mac OS X, BSD, free, open source, and good enough.


    "Good enough" doesn't cut it where people work and use tools to put food on the table. There are no albums being cut/mastered/edited/whatever with Audacity. It's ProTools and a handful of other programs, with ProTools being THE main one.

    Now, to be fair, Audacity is fantastic for 99.9999% of people out there. For casual home use, it's great.

    For large studios/enterprises, they can afford the massive costs behind Linux based solutions.

    For small businesses though, Linux is tough. If you balk at a million dollar solution price tag, and would rather spend somewhere under $1,000, moving to Linux will be really, really hard for a lot of businesses.

    But audio editing is only 1 example. There are many others where Linux makes more sense than anything else. Still... having more software with larger user bases makes using a platform easier. The reason why Linux is a bad "workstation" choice is because it doesn't run Microsoft Office, and everyone out there is already using MS Office. It's the ubiquity of Office that drives people to Windows, which only exacerbates the situation. But that's really the extreme example for large user bases making a platform attractive.



    I think that the best hope for Linux at the moment lies with .NET and Mono. If more developers can target Linux with very little additional cost to themselves, then having more software available for Linux will make it more attractive. It's a matter of costs. You can't spend 6 months or more in development for 3 people that won't pay anyways. Despite what some people think, developing software requires a large skill set, lots of time, and it flat out isn't free. Mono makes it easier to develop software for Linux at a minimal cost to developers. I don't see anything else really being viable on a massive scale. (RealBasic and other cross-platform development tools have smaller communities, and while they are good, the size presents a problem.) So, I'm back to rooting for Novell. I hope that we continue to see more great advances from Miguel and his team. They're what I see as the key to an open and free future for computing.
    Except when you go the Mono route, you start down the slippery slope of dipping a toe into Microsoft's patent bullshit, which as we know, any corporation is more than happy to spend a decade suing the living crap out of anyone that gets near their IP. For me, it's not worth the headache, even though Miguel de Icaza has done some wonderful things for us all.


    Microsoft doesn't have a history of running around and suing people. That would be Apple. (And a bunch of other companies that do nothing but patent litigtion.)

    So what other solution is out there? Java? That failed. There aren't any others.









    Well linux stopped attracting me when major software corps didn't came up with any paid software so far. There are very few paid apps for linux and i guess too much clutter in license and open-source issue is the reason behind it. Besides that if OS is free, how come many customers are going to pay me for building custom apps for them (i came across many such people who think like this i.e. why pay for apps if OS is free ?). Consultancy, maintenance, support will not sustain the developers business(atleast solo developer will have hard time).

    I think you've really nailed a key failure in the Linux community.

    The Linux community seems to have attracted too many people that are attracted to "money free" versus "freedom free", and that entire cheapo "I'm not going to pay for anything" mind-set has basically become synonymous with Linux and open source. It's not created a healthy ecosystem for Linux, and Linux has suffered for that.

    Sorry, but I have to make a stand and state my opinion that these are BIG misconceptions.
    There is nothing in any license that says you cannot or should not charge money for your work.
    The GPL license only protects the use and distribution of GPL code.


    I've tried to point this out numerous times.

    Still, it doesn't change the general perception. Go into some software development forums and start reading the discussions. They're all pretty much the same. Nobody is willing to develop for Linux because Linux users are perceived as cheap and there just aren't enough of them. (I'm just reporting the facts.)

    Every Linux desktop machine to date has died an unceremonious death. Sun tried to put out a Solaris desktop machine and it suffered the same fate. Dell tried it. It died. There's a problem here. A very serious problem. It's not a misconception. It's fact. The Linux desktop ecosystem is not healthy. (Perhaps 'ecosystem' is the wrong term -- I specifically mean the market where vendors can create products to get to consumers.)

    This is kind of the opposite of Apple. Apple can take a dump in a paper bag, hype it as the cure for cancer, and sell a trillion copies by noon.

    In the Linux world, it seems like they create a cure for cancer, hype it as a dump in a paper bag, then wonder why nobody is buying/using.

    There's a serious image problem.


    I have seen software authors give many legitimate reasons why they don't develop for Linux, and "users are cheapskates" is the most LAME excuse you could possibly use.

    It doesn't matter whether it's lame or not. That's what happens, and that's why a lot of developers don't/won't develop for Linux. It's just about always the top reason as well.



    Of course that element exists, it even exists in the Windows community (I think you call them "pirates"), but anybody who takes their choice of Linux use as some sort of entitlement to "free everything" is frankly not worth the bother, not the target you'd aim at if you were smart, and I am certain not the majority of the Linux community.


    There are developers writing commercial software for Linux successfully. But most of the ones I know aren't doing mass market software. It's the mass market software that can drive adoption.



    Personally, I greatly admire the folks who have taken the bold step to open-source their software, and I think those applications are all the better for it.
    Would the Gimp be a better Photoshop contender if it were closed-source?
    I seriously think not.
    Would I buy it if I had to pay for it?
    Sure, if the price was right and the features attractive; no different than any other software.
    Like Zaine said, if Adobe made a feature-for-feature Linux version of Photoshop, you can bet there would be a substantial market for it.

    Photoshop is one of those mass market packages that could drive adoption. People would setup Linux machines just for it.


    Not huge of course, (what do you expect from 1% of the desktop market? undecided ) but certainly worth the effort and it would start a nice ball rolling.


    It can be worth the effort for companies that can absorb the costs to bring a port to the Linux platform, but I really don't think a lot of software companies can afford the costs. Again, back to major/popular mass market software like Office, Photoshop, games, etc.



    How do I know?

    Just look at a few proofs (admittedly small, but they are real) from the gaming market:
    Linux cheapskates users average donation was almost twice that of the other platforms?
    5, 10, 12% of sales (sales!) coming from users of a platform that only has 1% desktop market share?
    Give me a break...
    • 2- With things like Unigine in active development, the divide between DirectX and OpenGL is narrowing.
      Really.
    • 3- Despite the recent flap about a Steam client coming to Linux, and then suddenly not, I seriously doubt all that effort on Valve's part was for nothing.
    Once they see the demand, you KNOW it'll happen.
    I mean, come on, if there's money to be made, even just 5% more (according to the evidence), why WOULDN'T you?


    5% more isn't enough for a small company quite often. For a large company that can afford the additional overhead, 5% is a lot. It's all about volume. For a developer making 100,000 a year, 5% isn't worth it because they can likely get better returns elsewhere because development costs will be above profit potential. For a software publishing house making 100,000,000 a year, 5% is certainly worth it. The development costs are far below the profit potential.

    Larger or well funded companies in mass market software are the ones that can drive Linux adoption. Small developers can't.


    I just realized I may have snarked a bit in this post; let it be known I don't mean any malice to anybody, but I do stand by my opinions.
    It's just I very much resent being called out for being cheap just because I use an operating system that's free (as in beer) and I'm sure there are MANY who stand with me.


    If I came off as calling all Linux users cheap, that was not my intent. I wanted to point out a common perception/misperception.

    On a side note, I really do hate the "free as in beer" analogy. What does it mean? I find it confusing. What is it that encumbers the beer or what encumbrance is the beer liberated of? Free as in cost and free as in freedom make sense to me. Or is it a beverage that is free of beer? smiley


    There are MANY reasons other than "it's free" that I use Linux and because the web is full of others who have stated those reasons much more eloquently, I will refrain from enumerating them here.
    I open my pocketbook where I can, when I can, and I'm sure that folks who pay for the majority of their software do much the same.

    P.S. Mono can eat my shorts.

    What is it with the Mono hatred? I don't get it. It's simply fantastic! It's the only truly cross-platform development solution. No, it's not perfect, and yes there is room for improvement. But I don't see anyone else addressing the problem at the same level. RealBasic and similar solutions are really small. Mono brings a whole banquet of languages to the table with massive amounts of community support out there. Mono is the cross-platform version of the Death Star or a nova bomb (for Andromeda fans). It just kicks everything else's asses so bad.

    And it's managed code! That's such a massive step forward. Just that in itself is a blessing.

    I just don't get why anyone would hate Mono... They're even underdogs... Like who hates the underdog?


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    « Reply #38 on: November 11, 2010, 03:13:15 AM »

    Audacity is... I was going to say "a joke", but it's an OK "small sound clip editor with very limited features". It's slow, the way it deals with compressed files isn't optimal (last time I checked it required decompressing the entire stream to disk, without a destination override), there's a very limited featureset, and the keyboard shortcuts suck (making it utterly useless for transcribing).

    It's a decent little editor for very limited needs, but it's entirely unsuitable for anything beyond that.
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    « Reply #39 on: November 14, 2010, 07:48:10 AM »

    You can't pay your bills/support your familly by programming for free software in india. Atleast this is truth for this part of the world. Open source ? that is different discussion.
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    « Reply #40 on: November 14, 2010, 08:21:27 AM »

    You can't pay your bills/support your familly by programming for free software in india. Atleast this is truth for this part of the world. Open source ? that is different discussion.

    There are ways to make money with free software. Lots of ways. Unfortunately, they are all pretty complex and require teams to pull off. You can't really do it by yourself and expect success. You need a dedicated sales/promotion/marketing guy and a programmer at a minimum.
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    « Reply #41 on: November 14, 2010, 09:53:35 AM »

    Exactly. Single programmer is going to get kicked out in this model. He can't even raise money to this type of startup,so hard to think of hiring more employees.

    As i said earlier in this thread- point is people here in this part of the world will not pay a dime if the operating system is free and the software that comes with it is also free. Donation can't pay for your family expense and bills. Such customers assume that software support and the maintenance should be free as well. This is business breaker and single guy can't target this model atleast in this country. Yes you can force them to buy themes for wordpress but they'll think thrice before buying a plugin. I don't know how they differentiate between this. I guess such freebie-lovers think - bench should be free and i'll pay only for painting this bench.  Grin
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    « Reply #42 on: November 14, 2010, 10:49:44 AM »

    Content... While it seems cheesy, it's a revenue model... Themes and skins and whatnot fit in there. Still, it seems almost dirty...
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    « Reply #43 on: November 19, 2010, 12:06:47 AM »

    I don't understand what you mean when you say Mono is the only true cross platform development solution. Do you mean the only cross platform toolkit, or IDE? Because last I checked regulary old C/C++ code is pretty easily cross platform. Er, Java even more so, but that's going to be slower than .NET in general I guess. If a cross platform GUI toolkit is needed to complete the package, what about Qt? I say all this as part of a company looking to port a Windows/Mac app to Linux within the next year...

    Other than that I think I generally agree with what you're saying. There is definitely the *perception* that Linux users will not generally pay for software. Some industries/markets are exceptions, like the noted visual effects industry example, but that's actually a comparatively small market (one which our product targets cheesy). For the broader market of consumer or prosumer software, most people running Linux would seem to be serious hobbyists or IT people, who are generally savvy enough to find most software for free, and if they do pay for software, are very serious with their value requirements.

    I do wonder just how well Photoshop would do on Linux actually; I don't take it for granted it that would succeed so greatly as others here have said. What do you base taht on? Don't you think the majority of people who need to use Photoshop, or want to use it enough to pay for it, are already running Windows? Perhaps the suggestion is that there are enough people who really want to switch from Windows/Mac, but are waiting for their needed software to be ported?

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    « Reply #44 on: November 19, 2010, 12:30:03 AM »

    I probably exaggerated a bit... Or maybe a lot. smiley

    Mono has an entire framework along with it. So you don't have to mess around with finding parts here and there. It's also a large project with a community to back it up, and a massive larger C# community. You don't get that with RealBasic, although RealBasic still offers a viable cross-platform solution.

    Java, well, it's probably much better than before, but it ended up being write once, break everywhere. I don't know if it's viable on the desktop. Someone that knows more would do better to comment on it. Just from what I've seen though, I can't see opting for Java. It just seems like all the Java stuff out there is server and enterprise stuff. Cross-platform isn't really so much of an issue in server environments because you need to commit to the server in a very deep way, unlike the way in which you commit to a desktop, which is rather shallow by comparison.

    C/C++... Sigh... Well, it's a toolkit issue there. Qt might be ok. The last time I tried to work with it I just got frustrated and gave up. I just kept running into issues again and again.

    I suppose that my main concern is getting things done fast and easy and keeping productivity high. C/C++ just doesn't do that for me. It just seems that everything takes so long to get done. The point of cross-platform is so that you reduce the amount of work that you have to do. I'm just not a big C fan.

    I suppose it's the framework that comes with Mono that I find so attractive. It gives you so much for so little effort.


    You've got a point there about IT people paying for software. We kind of cut our own throats in a lot of ways. Some things we'll pay for, and other things we simply won't spend a dime on. That makes some markets non-viable and others very profitable.

    I buy components all the time. I don't buy a lot of other kinds of software. Quite often I end up programming my own software to get a job done. Those things I rarely ever release though. They sit and rot on a hard drive and I never look at them again, or rarely.
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    « Reply #45 on: November 19, 2010, 12:46:05 AM »

    Ok, time for a funny...

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    « Reply #46 on: November 19, 2010, 02:51:54 PM »

    Mono has an entire framework along with it. So you don't have to mess around with finding parts here and there. It's also a large project with a community to back it up, and a massive larger C# community. You don't get that with RealBasic, although RealBasic still offers a viable cross-platform solution.

    Java, well, it's probably much better than before, but it ended up being write once, break everywhere. I don't know if it's viable on the desktop. Someone that knows more would do better to comment on it. Just from what I've seen though, I can't see opting for Java. It just seems like all the Java stuff out there is server and enterprise stuff. Cross-platform isn't really so much of an issue in server environments because you need to commit to the server in a very deep way, unlike the way in which you commit to a desktop, which is rather shallow by comparison.

    C/C++... Sigh... Well, it's a toolkit issue there. Qt might be ok. The last time I tried to work with it I just got frustrated and gave up. I just kept running into issues again and again.

    The big difference I see with Mono vs C/C++ and even Java to a lesser extent is that you must compile the C/C++ code to specifically target each desired platform.  Java with the JVM is less true to that, but the differences between platforms means you still have to be careful and MAY have to target certain platforms.  The promise of Mono is that I write an app in a .Net language.  Then, as long as the Mono/.Net version minimum is met, I don't know and don't care what you are running or, indeed, what framework you are using.  You use my C# code on the framework of choice and it works.  I develop on Linux, market to Windows, and you use it on a Mac.  It just doesn't matter because the framework does the heavy lifting of determining what the code means.  It is that simple (well in theory).  And that is why Mono is a good thing.

    Except when you go the Mono route, you start down the slippery slope of dipping a toe into Microsoft's patent bullshit, which as we know, any corporation is more than happy to spend a decade suing the living crap out of anyone that gets near their IP. For me, it's not worth the headache, even though Miguel de Icaza has done some wonderful things for us all.
     

    The catch here is Novell (and hence MONO) have a written legal agreement that allows this.  Indeed, Microsoft is a Junior Partner in the project.  They will never sue over Mono because they will flat out loose due to their previous agreements.  Moreover, they will loose sales because apps they can sell (without costly rewriting of code) can't run on Linux without it.  Lastly if you have had your ear anywhere in this hemisphere of IT, you will know that Microsoft's new big push is Azure which is their cloud-based initiative.  If this can work out for them, they see much of the desktop as irrelevant from a user perspective.  I honestly believe they are hedging their bets with respect to the desktop.  If it survives, then Windows will stay one of their premiere products.  If the cloud based initiatives gain much more traction, they will start to evolve from a desktop product to a premiere cloud-based product where the desktop truly is irrelevant (and they will finally cede the OS to Linux or some stripped free version of windows).  

    Which do I think is most likely?  Well I think their best case scenario is some hybrid where the Cloud is the predominant app running on fat client OS's, such as Windows.  I give that a slightly better than 50/50 chance.  Otherwise my guess is they will transition to an appliance that boots to the cloud where they will try to establish a presence at least as predominate as they are on the desktop now.  My looking glass says one of these two are about 85% likely to occur with the other 15% being one of several other scenarios (such as ChromeOS becoming the defacto client for a cloud-based user-base).

    Tell me where you think I am wrong.  This is fun looking into the future where we can come back in 5 years and see how close we were in guessing the tides. cheesy
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    « Reply #47 on: November 20, 2010, 03:50:03 AM »

    Tell me where you think I am wrong.  This is fun looking into the future where we can come back in 5 years and see how close we were in guessing the tides. cheesy

    No argument here. smiley

    It will be interesting to see how fast it happens.
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    « Reply #48 on: November 20, 2010, 11:49:04 PM »

    Again, the problem with Mono is Microsoft. Why bother getting your code infected and getting anywhere near Microsoft if you're programming for Linux? You're just inviting a lawsuit that will kill you. Even if you survive a frivolous suit, you've still lost millions. It was Microsoft who funded SCO for a decade. It's Microsoft who regularly rattles their patent saber, claiming that Linux violates over 235 Microsoft patents and Microsoft is willing to sue without notice (Steve Ballmer loves to pull this one out in at least one interview per year).

    Once you lose trust with a company, e.g., Google, you have almost no reason to give them a second or 16th chance at screwing you or your data.

    I don't mind being called cheap. Like many Americans, I live paycheck to paycheck, one disaster away from losing what little I have. It's also the same reason I live a "small" life. The few times I have taken chances, I've usually gotten screwed by an employer, sued (and lost), or even been called into the Attorney General's office for a one-way talk.

    The same argument that states, "Everyone uses Microsoft Office" can also be said about a lot of proprietary programs or cloud services. For example, from 2007 to early 2010, you could say "Everyone uses an iPhone." But in turn would you therefore have us pay Apple for the privilege of being a market leader, thus shutting down any competition and ensuring Apple "wins"? That's being a prisoner of the moment. But let's also not confuse a program with a a format; even Microsoft 2010 can write and save files in ODF. And while I like LibreOffice, I would never say everyone should use it. (OpenOffice is effectively dead now that Oracle controls it, so you'll see it dwindle soon.)

    The cloud has already made the OS irrelevant for me. I can visit and do anything on any site I want involving multimedia on my Linux machine. The only things left that I (personally) do on the desktop is (1) spreadsheet work, (2) photo editing, and (3) other LibreOffice tasks. I'm just an end user, not a corporation, not a company, not a programmer. I used to do everything on the desktop, but again, free cloud services has taken much of that away. One example: I no longer keep MP3's on my HD, instead I have several dozen playlists of songs from YouTube, most of them HQ and/or concert performances. It's pretty cool to hear (and see) David Bowie play variations of the same song over the past 41 years!

    I could go on. But my point is simple: I'm not ceding any ground or money to a corporation, be it Apple, Microsoft, Facebook, or the ever-growing behemoth, Google. A corporation does not have my interest at stake, does not share my values toward open data, and has not earned my trust. Like governments, they will inevitably disappoint. Microsoft, Apple, and Google will justify just about anything to sell their products in China, even piracy and theft of their IP when China decides they're ready to keep the profit for themselves. Chinese jackasses hacked my Google account earlier this year and instead of letting me know something, Google just canceled my account and my data! (I had it all backed up, but they didn't even have the decency to inform me until eight weeks later what had happened to my account.) Go figure.
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    « Reply #49 on: November 21, 2010, 12:09:04 AM »

    ...

    The cloud has already made the OS irrelevant for me. I can visit and do anything on any site I want involving multimedia on my Linux machine. The only things left that I (personally) do on the desktop is (1) spreadsheet work, (2) photo editing, and (3) other LibreOffice tasks. I'm just an end user, not a corporation, not a company, not a programmer. I used to do everything on the desktop, but again, free cloud services has taken much of that away. One example: I no longer keep MP3's on my HD, instead I have several dozen playlists of songs from YouTube, most of them HQ and/or concert performances. It's pretty cool to hear (and see) David Bowie play variations of the same song over the past 41 years!

    I could go on. But my point is simple: I'm not ceding any ground or money to a corporation, be it Apple, Microsoft, Facebook, or the ever-growing behemoth, Google. A corporation does not have my interest at stake, does not share my values toward open data, and has not earned my trust. Like governments, they will inevitably disappoint. Microsoft, Apple, and Google will justify just about anything to sell their products in China, even piracy and theft of their IP when China decides they're ready to keep the profit for themselves. Chinese jackasses hacked my Google account earlier this year and instead of letting me know something, Google just canceled my account and my data! (I had it all backed up, but they didn't even have the decency to inform me until eight weeks later what had happened to my account.) Go figure.


    I've been slowly changing my mind about the cloud. I'm eeking over there slowly, but surely.

    For the moment, I find a lot of things useful, and in fact do use some services. Other things, sorry. They're holy and on MY computer under MY control. 100%.

    Your getting burned there is the exact reason why I've resisted for so long. I got burned before, and I don't want to get burned again.

    I will be slowly moving into the cloud, but I'll make damn sure I've got a ladder in case I need to step down off the cloud...

    Once the cloud is more of a reality, platforms will be less important. I think that's a good thing.

    Still, I want to see strong open source initiatives and strong for-profit companies out there. We need both of them. Just one isn't going to cut it.
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