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Last post Author Topic: Apple instigates Police Raid over lost/stolen iPhone 4G  (Read 31679 times)

Dormouse

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Re: Apple instigates Police Raid over lost/stolen iPhone 4G
« Reply #50 on: April 29, 2010, 06:00:27 PM »
The legal definition of theft in this case is defined by California code- and it is a bit wider than your comment takes into account.  There is a legal responsibility in California to return found material. 

Actually, there are variations between the criminal and civil codes and the effort required to return an article is arguable (and certainly will be argued if it ever ends up in Court). If Gizmodo had bought and then kept the phone, there's no question it would have been theft. But they publicised it in a way that Apple had to notice; that can be construed as an attempt to draw the attention of the owner to the presence of the item. I can't remember what the original article said - but iirc then it was unwise of them to say they bought the phone. Paying money as a reward for possible Apple related info is possibly more defensible as well as being closer to the truth. It is hard to see very much positive about the original finder's behaviour - accepting $5000, in whatever guise, for handing over an object to someone you know is not the owner can't be justified, though it doesn't necessarily mean that the phone was stolen. From the Gizmodo side, most journalists would be happy to pay large sums for a good scoop which is what they actually paid for (though I had never really twigged exactly how much money some of these sites can play around with). I'm not sure that all the things they have said would have got through a publishers' legal team in the form they said them in though (not that I've read much of what they have said/written directly), and that opens up the possibility of some trouble for them.

I don't think the IP thing is a major issue. At best, what can be seen by opening the phone is a minor secret - it will soon be public anyway - so its value is fairly limited. But Apple will have a right to get any info taken from Gizmodo that they took from the phone and still have - should be a civil matter though.

It's interesting that the police seem to be going after Gizmodo rather than the original finder.

wraith808

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Re: Apple instigates Police Raid over lost/stolen iPhone 4G
« Reply #51 on: April 29, 2010, 08:57:55 PM »

It's interesting that the police seem to be going after Gizmodo rather than the original finder.

Just because the focus has only so far been on Chen doesn't mean they aren't looking at the original finder- indeed, that could be one of the reasons behind the seizure.

Renegade

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Re: Apple instigates Police Raid over lost/stolen iPhone 4G
« Reply #52 on: April 29, 2010, 10:36:16 PM »
For a prototype iPhone that's fully workable and not akin to the used market at all?  And has extra features that you won't find in any iPhone?  I defy you to find any judge that would value that at less than $100.

Take any computer, write a bit of buggy software and put it on it. All of a sudden, it has features that no other computer has. I don't think that really makes it worth much more.

The phone was unfinished, and broken. Would you pay for a product that was unfinished and broken? I really doubt most people would.

This entire thing is only because it's from Apple. Step back, sub in some arbitrary <company name> and <product name>. What happens? Rule of law? Do different people get treated differently? It certainly sounds like it. Some unfinished and broken prototype? It's worthless. That is, if we don't put Apple on a pedestal.

But you're probably right about judges.
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40hz

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Re: Apple instigates Police Raid over lost/stolen iPhone 4G
« Reply #53 on: April 30, 2010, 02:44:22 AM »

It's interesting that the police seem to be going after Gizmodo rather than the original finder.

Just because the focus has only so far been on Chen doesn't mean they aren't looking at the original finder- indeed, that could be one of the reasons behind the seizure.

Spot on!

I'm sure Apple is frantically trying to determine if this was just a chance screw-up - or part of some huge well-financed and organized conspiracy to steal their secrets.

I shudder to think what sort of witch-hunt is likely being conducted behind closed doors on the Apple campus right now.

Paranoia - the gift that just keeps on giving and giving!

Sure glad I don't work there! 8)

« Last Edit: April 30, 2010, 02:46:14 AM by 40hz »

Eóin

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Re: Apple instigates Police Raid over lost/stolen iPhone 4G
« Reply #54 on: April 30, 2010, 07:23:08 AM »
Take any computer, write a bit of buggy software and put it on it. All of a sudden, it has features that no other computer has. I don't think that really makes it worth much more.

Please, that's a nonsense a comparison. Maybe if said buggy software was an in development application full of trade secrets then we'd start to be in a similar situation to the current one. Of course then the laptop would become a very valuable commodity and completely disprove your point.

Dormouse

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Re: Apple instigates Police Raid over lost/stolen iPhone 4G
« Reply #55 on: April 30, 2010, 07:45:48 AM »
For a prototype iPhone that's fully workable and not akin to the used market at all?  And has extra features that you won't find in any iPhone?  I defy you to find any judge that would value that at less than $100.

Except it was quickly not workable at all. So used phone of unknown origin, that doesn't work. Value low.

OTOH, after (presumably) some digging around it was thought worth taking to Gizmodo. They paid $5000. $5000 is more than $100. Except they were really paying for their expectation of a big scoop and not the phone itself since they expected to return that to owner after checking what it actually was and publishing.
« Last Edit: April 30, 2010, 07:58:51 AM by Dormouse »

Stoic Joker

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Re: Apple instigates Police Raid over lost/stolen iPhone 4G
« Reply #56 on: April 30, 2010, 07:59:34 AM »
OTOH, after (presumably) some digging around it was thought taking to Gizmodo. They paid $5000. $5000 is more than $100. Except they were really paying for their expectation of a big scoop and not the phone itself since they expected to return that to owner after checking what it actually was and publishing.

Hence having better in-roads/contacts with "the owner", they simply (as proxy) paid a "finders fee" to the fellow to show their appreciation ... while assisting in return it to the "rightful" (and a few lefts for good measure) owner.

So...:
 1. Apple (is) stays evil
 2. Nobody goes to jail
 3. The Fuzz looks a bit foolish

...Everybodys happy - I like it!

wraith808

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Re: Apple instigates Police Raid over lost/stolen iPhone 4G
« Reply #57 on: April 30, 2010, 09:08:46 AM »
For a prototype iPhone that's fully workable and not akin to the used market at all?  And has extra features that you won't find in any iPhone?  I defy you to find any judge that would value that at less than $100.

Except it was quickly not workable at all. So used phone of unknown origin, that doesn't work. Value low.

Where do you get that it was not workable?  They wiped the data remotely.  You can do the same thing with MobileMe.  It doesn't make the phone unuseable- it just wipes it to remove your personal data.

From http://www.appleinsi...te_wipe_service.html
Quote
A third button, Remote Wipe, says it "will permanently delete all media and data on your iPhone, restoring it to factory settings. This will not suspend your wireless service. Once wiped, your iPhone will no longer be able to display messages or be located".

Apple's support page notes "If the iPhone or iPod touch is online (turned on and connected to a data network such as Edge, 3G, or Wi-Fi), information deletion begins within seconds, and a confirmation email that the remote wipe has begun is sent to your MobileMe email account. If the iPhone or iPod touch is offline (not turned on or not connected to a data network), the information will be deleted the next time the device is online."

The site also points out, "If you later find your iPhone or iPod touch after it has been erased, you can restore your information by connecting the device to your computer and restoring it from a previous backup using iTunes." The page also warned, "If you don’t expect to later find your iPhone, you should suspend your wireless service through your wireless service provider. If you don’t, you’ll continue to be responsible for any phone calls or other charges incurred."

Dormouse

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Re: Apple instigates Police Raid over lost/stolen iPhone 4G
« Reply #58 on: April 30, 2010, 10:33:20 AM »
Where do you get that it was not workable?  They wiped the data remotely.  You can do the same thing with MobileMe.  It doesn't make the phone unuseable- it just wipes it to remove your personal data.

From the original Gizmodo article:-

Thinking about returning the phone the next day, he left. When he woke up after the hazy night, the phone was dead. Bricked remotely

Now I don't know if it was just data wiped or bricked. But dead and bricked is what they said.
And what you would expect Apple to be able to do on the secret prototypes they allow to float around in the community.
« Last Edit: April 30, 2010, 10:36:54 AM by Dormouse »

wraith808

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Re: Apple instigates Police Raid over lost/stolen iPhone 4G
« Reply #59 on: April 30, 2010, 10:46:55 AM »
It was just wiped.  From the original gizmodo article:

Quote
This iPhone behaves exactly like an iPhone does when connected to a computer, with the proper boot sequence and "connect to iTunes" restore functionality. Xcode and iTunes both see this as an iPhone. Mac OS X's System Profiler also reports this as an iPhone in restore mode, which is a natural consequence of remotely wiping the phone, but report different  product identifiers (both CPID and CPRV) than either the 3G or the 3GS.

So it still worked... they just didn't have an image to restore because iPhone 4.0 OS is not out yet.

Quote
According to the person who found it, this iPhone was running iPhone OS 4.0 before the iPhone 4.0 announcement. The person was able to play with it and see the iPhone 4.0 features. Then, Apple remotely killed the phone before we got access to it. We were unable to restore because each firmware is device specific—3GS firmware only loads on 3GS devices—and the there are no firmwares available for this unreleased phone. Which is another clue to its authenticity.

All from URL http://gizmodo.com/5...s-apples-next-iphone to give the reference.

But all of this is neither here nor there.  To try to value this at under $100 is purest redirection, and if they tried to do it in court would be lame and quickly get them slapped by the judge (figuratively of course).  All parties in this can share in the blame, because all were wrong, IMO.  Like that other article said:

Quote
a) Gawker/Nick Denton = guilty
b) Jason Chen = guilty (of being gullible)
c) iPhone seller = guilty
d) Using Shield Law defense = lame
e) Gestapo Cops = very lame

No matter that he was an opposing blogger or not, doesn't mean that he can't make relevant points.  And IMO they are totally relevant.


Dormouse

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Re: Apple instigates Police Raid over lost/stolen iPhone 4G
« Reply #60 on: April 30, 2010, 10:56:42 AM »
So it still worked... they just didn't have an image to restore because iPhone 4.0 OS is not out yet.

Except it didn't, because they didn't have the means to make it work. Only Apple did.

wraith808

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Re: Apple instigates Police Raid over lost/stolen iPhone 4G
« Reply #61 on: April 30, 2010, 12:44:47 PM »
So it still worked... they just didn't have an image to restore because iPhone 4.0 OS is not out yet.

Except it didn't, because they didn't have the means to make it work. Only Apple did.

I can play too...

Except it will, once the 4.0 OS is released.  And it did, in that the device itself worked.  They just didn't have the software portion.  What value is on the software, and what value is on the hardware?  As I said... semantics.

Stoic Joker

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Re: Apple instigates Police Raid over lost/stolen iPhone 4G
« Reply #62 on: April 30, 2010, 01:06:01 PM »
Hm... So you would consider a car to be working - Even if it did not have an engine - Just because you could toss one in it?

This car would viably be considered "working" by whom exactly?

wraith808

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Re: Apple instigates Police Raid over lost/stolen iPhone 4G
« Reply #63 on: April 30, 2010, 01:09:13 PM »
Hm... So you would consider a car to be working - Even if it did not have an engine - Just because you could toss one in it?

This car would viably be considered "working" by whom exactly?

Not an equitable comparison.  We're talking software and hardware... and an engine is definitely hardware.  It's more like does a car run without the software installed.  It might not run correctly and be useable, but for sure it does run.  And by those definitions is *still* not appreciably devalued for the lack as it can be replaced easily enough.

Stoic Joker

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Re: Apple instigates Police Raid over lost/stolen iPhone 4G
« Reply #64 on: April 30, 2010, 01:31:45 PM »
Hm... So you would consider a car to be working - Even if it did not have an engine - Just because you could toss one in it?

This car would viably be considered "working" by whom exactly?

Not an equitable comparison.

Sure it is, we're talking about an item which is the sum of it's parts ... All it's parts ... Not just most of them, or the obvious ones that are easy to see.

Quote
We're talking software and hardware... and an engine is definitely hardware.

Parts is parts - Sure you can "run" a computer without an operating system...but you can't do shit with it. I'll simplify - Take one of the latest greatest hottest computers on the market today, flatten the OS so the drive is bare, hop in a time machine and go back to 1975 ... and see what its worth there. (the term plug nickel comes to mind...)

Quote
It's more like does a car run without the software installed.  It might not run correctly and be usable, but for sure it does run.

...You mean like the software in the ECU - No it don't, there's nothing there to translate for the myriad of sensors.

Quote
And by those definitions is *still* not appreciably devalued for the lack as it can be replaced easily enough.
Once again, by whom?

wraith808

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Re: Apple instigates Police Raid over lost/stolen iPhone 4G
« Reply #65 on: April 30, 2010, 02:14:40 PM »
So if you take a computer today and take it back to 1975 it would be worth nothing?  Yeah... I'd like to see that.  Even without the OS, it would still be worth quite a bit, and thinking that it wouldn't be makes me see that perhaps I should bow out of this conversation.  It's quite obvious that *even without the OS* a next generation iPhone is worth more than $100 intrinsically.  Gizmodo made more than the $5k on the phone, and the person that sold it made more than the $100 that is speculated.  If it wasn't worth more than $100 how do you explain that?  But I suppose that makes no difference in calculating worth?

And as a BTW, I know for a *fact* that my Volvo will crank without the Central Electric Module installed and working- because I've had to do it before.  Just as the iPhone without the OS still starts.  The hardware does indeed work... you just have to replace the software.

Eóin

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Re: Apple instigates Police Raid over lost/stolen iPhone 4G
« Reply #66 on: April 30, 2010, 02:36:43 PM »
I really hope I'm in a position to purchase technology from some of the people in this thread someday. ;)
« Last Edit: April 30, 2010, 04:07:04 PM by Eóin »

Stoic Joker

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Re: Apple instigates Police Raid over lost/stolen iPhone 4G
« Reply #67 on: April 30, 2010, 03:30:47 PM »
So if you take a computer today and take it back to 1975 it would be worth nothing?  Yeah... I'd like to see that.  Even without the OS, it would still be worth quite a bit,
Once again to whom? Back in 75 there was what maybe a dozen or so engineers that would have had a clue what they were looking at - To anyone else on the planet it's a doorstop.

Quote
and thinking that it wouldn't be makes me see that perhaps I should bow out of this conversation.
That'd make for a dull afternoon... :( ;)

Quote
It's quite obvious that *even without the OS* a next generation iPhone is worth more than $100 intrinsically.

Not to me... :)

Quote
Gizmodo made more than the $5k on the phone, and the person that sold it made more than the $100 that is speculated.  If it wasn't worth more than $100 how do you explain that?  But I suppose that makes no difference in calculating worth?

 :huh: Gizmodo Made money on the phone? I thought they paid $5k for the phone - or did Apple reimburse them the finders fee + gratuity?

Quote
And as a BTW, I know for a *fact* that my Volvo will crank without the Central Electric Module installed and working- because I've had to do it before.  Just as the iPhone without the OS still starts.  The hardware does indeed work... you just have to replace the software.

I can assure you that is not the norm for the modern day automobile. Some older vehicles weren't entirely dependent on the solid state engine control units...but now days with coil packs and the distributer no-longer being used, the only route from the crank position sensor to the plugs is through the (software) brain.

Frankly, to me the "value" of said phone is irrelevant, as I really don't consider it's little roadtrip a theft in any way, kind, sort, or form. Granted it ws perhaps a tad unethical of the participants... But no more so than any of the other crap that goes on behind closed doors of the corporate machine that we all know and "love".

Kind of like the scareware scams that are so prevalent today - Extortion is a crime - and if you or I tried that shit, we be in jail faster that we could blink. But... Corporation (with shiny 5 star legal team) does it, and all of a sudden its (to hard to prosecute) not illegal. The rules are different when (big) money is involved - and many things have a way of getting handled "internally".

All we really have here is a bully (Apple) that's gone crying to the (Fuzz) teacher because they got their bluff called. They got their silly damn phone back - everybody's even - let it go. There's just no profit in destroying Chan's poor ass.

wraith808

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Re: Apple instigates Police Raid over lost/stolen iPhone 4G
« Reply #68 on: April 30, 2010, 03:48:06 PM »
So if you take a computer today and take it back to 1975 it would be worth nothing?  Yeah... I'd like to see that.  Even without the OS, it would still be worth quite a bit,
Once again to whom? Back in 75 there was what maybe a dozen or so engineers that would have had a clue what they were looking at - To anyone else on the planet it's a doorstop.
If you had given a *working* computer to me in 1975, I could have figured out quite a few things without an OS.  Give it to someone with a lab and degree... yeah.  You don't need an OS to learn quite a bit from the computer.  I guarantee if you'd give something like this to IBM the landscape when you got back to 2010 would be a *lot* different.  I'm not saying it would be instantaneous, but...

Quote
Gizmodo made more than the $5k on the phone, and the person that sold it made more than the $100 that is speculated.  If it wasn't worth more than $100 how do you explain that?  But I suppose that makes no difference in calculating worth?

 :huh: Gizmodo Made money on the phone? I thought they paid $5k for the phone - or did Apple reimburse them the finders fee + gratuity?
Gizmodo makes money from traffic.  You don't think that this story boosted their traffic?  Therefore boost in traffic = money = profit on $5k.

All we really have here is a bully (Apple) that's gone crying to the (Fuzz) teacher because they got their bluff called. They got their silly damn phone back - everybody's even - let it go. There's just no profit in destroying Chan's poor ass.

There's a certain thing called a deterrent.  Gawker was warned about this when they *put* out the bounty, and they were able to get hardware from the bounty after being warned...   I wouldn't mind at all seeing them fry.  I don't agree with the tactics of the police, but I do think they need to be held accountable.

Stoic Joker

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Re: Apple instigates Police Raid over lost/stolen iPhone 4G
« Reply #69 on: April 30, 2010, 05:20:56 PM »
So if you take a computer today and take it back to 1975 it would be worth nothing?  Yeah... I'd like to see that.  Even without the OS, it would still be worth quite a bit,
Once again to whom? Back in 75 there was what maybe a dozen or so engineers that would have had a clue what they were looking at - To anyone else on the planet it's a doorstop.
If you had given a *working* computer to me in 1975, I could have figured out quite a few things without an OS.  Give it to someone with a lab and degree... yeah.  You don't need an OS to learn quite a bit from the computer.  I guarantee if you'd give something like this to IBM the landscape when you got back to 2010 would be a *lot* different.  I'm not saying it would be instantaneous, but...
...Depending on who got ahold of it. You say you could do a great deal with it - Okay... - At what age? The one you are now, or the one you were in 1975? (It's a gamble on my part, you could be in your 60s now... ;)

Keep in mind the intention was to share a glimmer of thing to come with the throng of frothing accolades - Not to copy Uber Secret Chip X and rush it into production at competitor Y. Apple created "the Monster" that got off the chain - Gizmodo just gave it a carrot. A is business as usual. Were B the case I'd (still laugh, but) agree with you.

Quote
Quote
Gizmodo made more than the $5k on the phone, and the person that sold it made more than the $100 that is speculated.  If it wasn't worth more than $100 how do you explain that?  But I suppose that makes no difference in calculating worth?

 :huh: Gizmodo Made money on the phone? I thought they paid $5k for the phone - or did Apple reimburse them the finders fee + gratuity?
Gizmodo makes money from traffic.  You don't think that this story boosted their traffic?  Therefore boost in traffic = money = profit on $5k.
-Legal fees = a vacuum.

Quote
All we really have here is a bully (Apple) that's gone crying to the (Fuzz) teacher because they got their bluff called. They got their silly damn phone back - everybody's even - let it go. There's just no profit in destroying Chan's poor ass.

There's a certain thing called a deterrent.  Gawker was warned about this when they *put* out the bounty, and they were able to get hardware from the bounty after being warned...   I wouldn't mind at all seeing them fry.  I don't agree with the tactics of the police, but I do think they need to be held accountable.
Accountable for what? Depriving Lord Jobs of a teensy weensy little spark from his next over-the-top release worship revival light show? If they actually had a product... other than their immense marketing hype inducer machine, this would be a total non-issue.
« Last Edit: April 30, 2010, 05:22:50 PM by Stoic Joker »

wraith808

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Re: Apple instigates Police Raid over lost/stolen iPhone 4G
« Reply #70 on: April 30, 2010, 07:16:13 PM »
...Depending on who got ahold of it. You say you could do a great deal with it - Okay... - At what age? The one you are now, or the one you were in 1975? (It's a gamble on my part, you could be in your 60s now... ;)
Not in my 60s, but in 79 I made a science project in which I made a robot arm that could move up and down... and I had to wire a circuit board and bridge it to my Apple II computer and made a program to allow the user to control it from the keyboard.  A few years later... but not much.

Keep in mind the intention was to share a glimmer of thing to come with the throng of frothing accolades - Not to copy Uber Secret Chip X and rush it into production at competitor Y. Apple created "the Monster" that got off the chain - Gizmodo just gave it a carrot. A is business as usual. Were B the case I'd (still laugh, but) agree with you.
No matter what their intent was, they were still doing it by illegal means that they just thought they could get away with.  It's not the size of the incident, but the principle behind it.  You traffic in stolen goods, you get slammed if caught.

-Legal fees = a vacuum.
Not if it goes like you think it should and nothing happens to them legally.  See how that works?

Accountable for what? Depriving Lord Jobs of a teensy weensy little spark from his next over-the-top release worship revival light show? If they actually had a product... other than their immense marketing hype inducer machine, this would be a total non-issue.

No... accountability for breaking the law.  And I'm no apple apologist, but its just the rule of law at work.  And you start breaking it down at these levels, and you pave the way for future grander violations.  Which is one of the reasons it's lame of them to bring the journalistic shield into play since you're using something that's meant to protect real journalists in a way that in the future could limit it when it really needs to be used.

Stoic Joker

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Re: Apple instigates Police Raid over lost/stolen iPhone 4G
« Reply #71 on: April 30, 2010, 10:08:48 PM »
...Depending on who got ahold of it. You say you could do a great deal with it - Okay... - At what age? The one you are now, or the one you were in 1975? (It's a gamble on my part, you could be in your 60s now... ;)
Not in my 60s, but in 79 I made a science project in which I made a robot arm that could move up and down... and I had to wire a circuit board and bridge it to my Apple II computer and made a program to allow the user to control it from the keyboard.  A few years later... but not much.

Cool. In 79 I did my first solo engine rebuild, actually I rebuilt the whole bike (CB450 Honda twin) from the ground up.

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Keep in mind the intention was to share a glimmer of thing to come with the throng of frothing accolades - Not to copy Uber Secret Chip X and rush it into production at competitor Y. Apple created "the Monster" that got off the chain - Gizmodo just gave it a carrot. A is business as usual. Were B the case I'd (still laugh, but) agree with you.
No matter what their intent was, they were still doing it by illegal means that they just thought they could get away with.  It's not the size of the incident, but the principle behind it.  You traffic in stolen goods, you get slammed if caught.

Fortunately the world isn't quite that black & white, reality is really more a myriad shades of gray. I've seen a multitude of these discussions go into the wall because somebody just had to play the nursery school marm stealing bad/momma spank cut and dried nonsense. As I've mentioned before, any time there is enough money involved, the rules change - That's just life in the big mean corporate world.

And even for the average Joe types, it's not always quite so crystal clear. for example, by the definition you're eluding to I submit this summery:

Any time one sets forth by stealth of design to willfully and intentionally with or without deception acquire property that they have no legal right of ownership to from the legal owner of said property they are without exception guilty of theft, and should be punished to the fullest extent of the law.

...Correct?

Now in some countries, the penalty for theft is to cut off the thief's hand - So we'll set the bar there (come on you just new I was headed for some manner of crazy ass-ed extreme).

Now, lets say your buddy, is drunk. I don't mean the slightly tipsy "legally drunk", I'm talking flat out smashed, blind, staggering, can't hold onto the floor drunk. In an attempt to prevent him from driving (obviously a bad idea) ... you orchestrate the separation of him and his car keys (e.g. you steal them). Hence by definition above a crime despite the best of intentions... Guilty - and off goes the hand. Cut, dried, completely in accordance with the law, done.

But wait... There's more! Lets say  - you draw the short straw - and get a still sopping wet fresh from graduation public defender, and the prosecuting attorney is in a bad mood (it's an election year, he's down on points, & looking for a good quick kill). So now due to the fact that your actions directly impaired said party's ability to leave...they tack on unlawful detention. Yeah now it's a party - I wonder what they cut off for that one?

Point being stealing is not always wrong.

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-Legal fees = a vacuum.
Not if it goes like you think it should and nothing happens to them legally.  See how that works?
Sure do, It's called a gamble, and is a standard part of any business. Large corporation dump toxic waste where they like, because the fines are cheaper than the cost of proper disposal. They're gambling on the price of the fine not changing. When it comes to politics vs. tax money - They're probably right too.

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Accountable for what? Depriving Lord Jobs of a teensy weensy little spark from his next over-the-top release worship revival light show? If they actually had a product... other than their immense marketing hype inducer machine, this would be a total non-issue.

No... accountability for breaking the law.  And I'm no apple apologist, but its just the rule of law at work.  And you start breaking it down at these levels, and you pave the way for future grander violations.


That actually happened years ago. Hay if Diplomatic Immunity hasn't gotten us all killed by now - I'm not seeing this as a real issue.

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Which is one of the reasons it's lame of them to bring the journalistic shield into play since you're using something that's meant to protect real journalists in a way that in the future could limit it when it really needs to be used.
If they tossed in a dead nun and a few pound of heroin (making an obvious stretch for Tech Journalism...) I'd agree with ya. But IMO, this is just what that shield be for.

Carol Haynes

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Re: Apple instigates Police Raid over lost/stolen iPhone 4G
« Reply #72 on: May 01, 2010, 04:35:52 AM »
Personally I don't think anyone did anything illegal (irrespective of stupid repressive Californian laws designed to keep people in their place).

If there was any 'offence' it was industrial espionage which should (at least in an sane world) be a civil matter.

The tactics of all major companies include (but are not limited to) private revese engineering of hardware and code, plagiarism with minor changes to avoid patent infindgement, extorting money from companies and individuals for patent infringements of patents they never developed themselves, patenting of biological entities (including genes of individual species and even individual humans), deliberate industrial espionage, poaching employees for their skills and knowledge, the use of gag orders on practically anybody they feel like, using wealth to deliberately destroy competitiors (and even potential competitiors), using pure threats and bullying tactics.

It is probably fair to say that most large corporations also exploit people in developing countries openly and also cause death and deprivation in one form or another if it is to their financial and competitve advantage.

If you think I am eggagerating get a copy of the film "The Corporation" for examples of all this behaviour which is required behaviour in law under most capitalist systems. In US law corporations have the status of 'person' (itslef a corruption of laws intended to protect freed slaves after the civil war) and "The Corporation" admirably illstrates that if corporations were real people they would be locked up in a psychiatric hospital as dangerous psychopaths!
« Last Edit: May 01, 2010, 04:37:51 AM by Carol Haynes »

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Re: Apple instigates Police Raid over lost/stolen iPhone 4G
« Reply #73 on: May 01, 2010, 07:53:31 AM »
 :greenclp: :greenclp: :greenclp:

That exact point has been gnawing at me for some time. The evil faceless corporation bent on domination (/repression of) the population was a popular theme of SiFi in the 60's & 70's. Unfortunately its message seems to have backfired as the only thing that seems to have been learned is that as long as you're at the top it's all good. Donald Trumps show The Apprentice (which I detest) comes to mind for the complete lack of integrity shown (and applauded) in the quest for the biggest pile of ca$h. Happy customers? Quality Product? Irrelivant... Just as long as a huge pile of dough is raked in. I find the attitude quite disgusting.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2010, 08:17:05 AM by Stoic Joker »

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Re: Apple instigates Police Raid over lost/stolen iPhone 4G
« Reply #74 on: May 01, 2010, 10:28:50 AM »
I remember reading an article where somebody remarked that she found it incredibly interesting that unacceptable behaviors (such as rampant egotism, lying, cheating, bullying, and a total disregard for others) are often elevated to the status of virtues when they occur in a business context.

Such behaviors are often associated with street crimes. Unless they occur on Wall Street. Commit them there and your market valuation goes up!


As Carol so succinctly noted:

if corporations were real people they would be locked up in a psychiatric hospital as dangerous psychopaths!

Go Carol!  :Thmbsup:

--------------

The Apprentice (which I detest) comes to mind for the complete lack of integrity shown (and applauded) in the quest for the biggest pile of ca$h. Happy customers? Quality Product? Irrelivant... Just as long as a huge pile of dough is raked in. I find the attitude quite disgusting.

+1

But what's even more disgusting to me is how well - and often - that attitude actually seems to work.

And that's the really heartbreaking thing for me.

It's not so much that people like Jobs, or Trump and his brethren, are the way they are.

It's more that, given the current state of global business, they just might be 'right' in behaving that way...

With the lunatics running the asylum, is it any wonder so many of us suffer from depression?  :nono2:

« Last Edit: May 01, 2010, 10:31:46 AM by 40hz »