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Last post Author Topic: poor? Pay up!  (Read 11315 times)

app103

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Re: poor? Pay up!
« Reply #25 on: May 22, 2009, 09:20:23 PM »
The reason the rates are so exorbitant is because of the failure rate of the loans.  And the repossession is not really wanted; the fees to do so merely allow the businesses to stay afloat- the interest rate on the people who make good on the loans are what keep the businesses going.

There are companies that exist solely to give out loans to people they hope can't pay them, just so they can take their cars, which greatly exceed the value of the loans. That's the reality of the situation. They only make loans to people with cars, the only collateral they accept are cars, and they only give small loans.

They stock their used car lots with all the repossessed cars and make a fortune selling them lower than anyone else in town. Essentially, they are getting tons of cars dirt cheap.

And if by chance the person does manage to pay off the loan, the company actually makes less money, even though the interest rates they are charging are unreasonably high.

How much more profitable is it for one of these companies that owns 50 car lots to only get $400 on a 7 day loan of $300 vs. getting a car worth $5000+ that they sell for $2500?

That's $100 profit vs. $2100 profit, in case you didn't want to do the math.

And how fair is that to the guy that owns the used car lot down the street that acquires his cars honestly, from people that actually sell the cars to him, and can't compete with the prices offered by the loanshark lots?

I can't believe anyone would think this is right.

wraith808

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Re: poor? Pay up!
« Reply #26 on: May 22, 2009, 11:25:07 PM »
So then if your car is about to get repossessed, or your gas or power shut off, or you're about to get evicted and have nowhere to go with your wife and kids, and just need a little to pay today and you're going to get paid next week, what are you to do?  You can't get a conventional loan, and all of your friends and family are in the same situation...

And what you're talking about only applies to some of the locations- when I had to do it, I had to put up something for the collateral, and I just used a VCR I had sitting around and couldn't sell.  So you can't judge a service based on the worst offenders, can you?

Stoic Joker

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Re: poor? Pay up!
« Reply #27 on: May 23, 2009, 08:27:07 AM »
So you can't judge a service based on the worst offenders, can you?
When the "Worst Offenders" comprise the highest percentage of the target group ... sure I'm ok with it. And so is Florida (where I live...) which cracked down on them just a few years back for their borderline criminal practices.

Just because a company isn't a front for the mob, doesn't mean they can run their operation like a carnival midway ... loansharking is a crime reguardless of who does it ... even if their name isn't Vinny, Tony or Guido.

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Re: poor? Pay up!
« Reply #28 on: May 23, 2009, 10:51:41 AM »
And then what about the first part of my statement?  What about the people who actually need the service?  And are they the highest percentage of the target group?  Is that actually a provable statement?  Or is this just based off of news exposes where they attempt to get their target audience?

I'm not saying that the ones with predatory practices don't need to be reined in.  I'm just saying that it's not as cut and dried as people want to make it.

Stoic Joker

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Re: poor? Pay up!
« Reply #29 on: May 23, 2009, 11:27:03 AM »
Why not? Complicate the simple & simplify the complex has always worked for me. It's sort of a can't see the forest for the trees thing. Too much minutia clouds the central issue of, is it a good solid business practice to kick the shit out of somebody when they're down. ...My answer to that is no (and I bet yours is too...).

Did these (check cashing/payday loan) companies start with the "good intent" of helping folks out? Sure. But the (predatory lending) bottom line got too enticing & greed kicked in.

Hence... Florida targeted several state wide "bad apples", and the ripple effect ended up taking out a huge portion of other companies that were equally as bad but didn't "stick out" enough to make examples out of. Many on the local companies that provided that "service" closed or were "restructured" in the wake of the rules that were put in place to prevent down-on-there-luck folks from being financially raped.

The CC companies are getting vilified now for much the same reason. 90% of them are in Delaware for the simple reason the Delaware has No regulatory control over lending practices ... Now tell me that action don't look just a bit suspicious...

CodeTRUCKER

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Re: poor? Pay up!
« Reply #30 on: May 23, 2009, 01:22:59 PM »
...
Just because a company isn't a front for the mob, doesn't mean they can run their operation like a carnival midway ... loansharking is a crime reguardless of who does it ... even if their name isn't Vinny, Tony or Guido.

Now, now, now... no racial profiling.  I have also heard of Chin Ho, Juan, Sven, Marty and some others.  :P

CodeTRUCKER

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Re: poor? Pay up!
« Reply #31 on: May 23, 2009, 01:42:04 PM »
Quote
So then if your car is about to get repossessed, or your gas or power shut off, or you're about to get evicted and have nowhere to go with your wife and kids, and just need a little to pay today and you're going to get paid next week, what are you to do?  You can't get a conventional loan, and all of your friends and family are in the same situation...
...

I faced this once, sort of, but I found that "necessity is the mother of invention" and having no cash is the father!  Seriously, when I was there I knew I had to do something and I also knew I had some "things" I could do it with.  So while I still had a working vehicle, I loaded up my ladder, tools, paint brushes... everything I could think of I might could convert the use of into $$$.  If I recall (not so good these days) I came home with about $350~ and a couple of contracts to do more work.  I also picked up some used appliance(?) and re-sold it at a pretty good profit, mainly since I was willing to deliver, set up and help them figure it out.  I manufactured some things out of wood to sell too.

Another time some years later and quite a few, ten, I think, I had learned some things about a computer and tutored people with little computer savvy (and confidence) for cash and did pretty good, at least nothing was ever repossessed nor did I have to hide.

The bottom line is I did not take the perspective that I was *owed* anything from, government, family or friends.  I just took the responsibility and used what I had rather than fret over what I did not have.  Funny thing was that when my family and friends saw that I was doing something, all of a sudden they had extra cash and were very generous too!  

Please note this is not to condemn anyone and maybe I was just "lucky(?)" but if you are in a tight or headed that way, I hope to suggest there are options, if you are willing to try until you succeed, at least until you get over the hump. 

Who knows, you might "accidentally" create a very profitable and lucrative business.  Every business out there was started by people.  Given that you are a "people" too, why can not you start a business?

« Last Edit: May 23, 2009, 01:50:29 PM by CodeTRUCKER »

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Re: poor? Pay up!
« Reply #32 on: May 23, 2009, 02:39:23 PM »
When I was in this situation, I was already working a full time job and a second job as soon as I got off and had my own business on the side.  I would work sometimes literally 36 hours with only minimal sleep.  As I said, I'd sold everything I could.  I didn't blame anyone else for my situation- it was my fault.  I'd tried to borrow as much as I could from friends and relatives, but none of them had it either.  If it wasn't for that service, I'd have not had the money I'd needed.  But I put up a VCR as collateral, and got the money I needed, and paid it back the next week.  If I hadn't had that opportunity, perhaps something else would have come along- but perhaps not.

I just think 'simplifying' and removing viable options in the name of protecting the interests of the poor who perhaps need it at times without considering the other side is just as reckless as letting them go unchecked at all.

CodeTRUCKER

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Re: poor? Pay up!
« Reply #33 on: May 23, 2009, 04:19:01 PM »
I think there is a larger issue that I have not read too much of in this thread (maybe I missed something?), but
before I begin, I do realize that life has currencies other than lucre where one can be rich or poor.  I also realize that there exceptions to many general absolutes.

There are the rich and there are the poor.  Why?
I would like to submit that the use of one's attitude in using one's intelligence/wisdom is a major player in determining an individual's eventual dossier. Please notice I did not say that intelligence is the key.  I said the "attitude" one uses in utilizing the "intelligence/wisdom" one has in their possession is key.

IMO, both are required. 
  • One may be a genius and all-wise in perceiving all ramifications (opportunities), but if his/her attitude is nil, then there is no motivation to work to convert the opportunities into results.
  • One may have a very high success drive and can work hard, but without the intelligence/wisdom to perceive the opportunities and the crucial timing, he/she will not be able to seize the moment.


While considering this, keep in mind that both the rich and the poor can become richer or poorer; therefore, regardless of one's station the opportunity to improve one's lot can be realized or lost.

It takes brains to maximize one's resources and spunk to take action that will net aggrandizing greater wealth.  Conversely, the derelict will not, but only reduce his store.  Have we not all heard of the "rich kid" squandering his/her bundle by extravagant living without regard to how valuable those monies really are in protecting from want?  Of course, we have!  Each of us is additionally acquainted with an adventure of a "poor person" rising above obstacles.  I think someone once stated...

"Luck happens when opportunity puts on work clothes."

Notice that the ingredients I have suggested above are implicit in this quote.

The poorest person can always improve their mind and learn new skills.  There is NO exception to this.  Doing so will, in turn, present an ever wider scope where one can take advantage.  The only difference is degree.  Again, conversely, the richest person that refuses to exercise discipline in the dispensation of available affluence will see a degradation of their abundance.  The simplicity of these maxims is the most pungent of truths because it strips away valid excuses for complaint of a person's station, although it does not hinder many who complain.

So, the summation is that generally, the rich are people of intellegence, wisdom and drive and generally, the poor are those that lack these qualities.  There is a direct law of cause and effect at work here.

Some last thoughts to consider...

Regardless of the sphere, we will always have the rich because someone had the pluck to take a risk and convert energy to improvement.  We will always have the poor because someone was content to remain in their mediocrity (but if that one is happy, more power to 'em :up:). 

The rich produce the things and services that add to the necessities, comfort and conveience of our lives.  What has any poor person who sits in the complacency of their shanty ever added to our lives?

Money is power as it allows the possessor to buy, manipulate, intimidate, influence etc. those with jingle-less pockets.  Is it not a good thing that generally the wealthy are some pretty bright folks with vision, drive and purpose? 

I do not have the ability to consider every ramification and maybe this might seem too simplistic, but this is the way Isee things today.


Stoic Joker

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Re: poor? Pay up!
« Reply #34 on: May 23, 2009, 11:38:07 PM »
So, the summation is that generally, the rich are people of intellegence, wisdom and drive and generally, the poor are those that lack these qualities.  There is a direct law of cause and effect at work here.
That's a fairly gross generalization. Rich people know how to make money, but that doesn't directly equate to intelligence ... Exhibit A: our current economy brought to you on a silver toilet lid...curtasy of "the rich". Wisdom? Please... (pontificating doesn't count, see exhibit A). Drive? Intrepid is one thing, greed is quite another.

Quote
Regardless of the sphere, we will always have the rich because someone had the pluck to take a risk and convert energy to improvement. We will always have the poor because someone was content to remain in their mediocrity (but if that one is happy, more power to 'em :up:).
Really? then why were many of the most important technological advances made by people (Tesla...) that died penny-less? Guess they were to tied up in the whole advance the human race discovery thing to be "plucky" enough to concentrate on what's really important like screwing a nickel out of everyone in sight for a piece of it.

Quote
The rich produce the things and services that add to the necessities, comfort and conveience of our lives.  What has any poor person who sits in the complacency of their shanty ever added to our lives?

Actually the rich produce nothing, they merely collect the money for the stuff we poor folk produce. Considering the bar for middle-class has been moved to the six figure range we're on the edge of pricing ourselves into a third world country.

Quote
Money is power as it allows the possessor to buy, manipulate, intimidate, influence etc. those with jingle-less pockets.  Is it not a good thing that generally the wealthy are some pretty bright folks with vision, drive and purpose?

No damnit, that's the central point this thread started on. Predatory lending practices at all levels are only serving to drive a wedge farther between the classes. Hell poor doesn't even mean poor anymore, its been overhauled (using an income based definition) to mean most of main street! Impoverished or poverty level is the (only) new way of separating ones self from the wineo that spends their days chatting with the box they live in...

Note: Just to be clear, I'm going for spirited discussion here ... I'm not attacking ;)
« Last Edit: May 23, 2009, 11:43:54 PM by Stoic Joker »

CodeTRUCKER

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Re: poor? Pay up!
« Reply #35 on: May 24, 2009, 02:44:17 AM »
<off topic> sort of... it has to at least count for a momentary diversion.

Quote
Note: Just to be clear, I'm going for spirited discussion here ... I'm not attacking ;)
Yoohoo!  I am up for this game!  Saddle up, Hoss!  Here we go!
Pssst!  Just for the record, you used a number of "tricks" here I will not let you get away with. ;) Unfortunately, I am in the middle of proofreading a manual for some aviation simulation software and my time is limited.  You are fortunate I wanted to take a break.  Also, lest anyone think I am trying to justify my own wealth, please note that I am an owner-operator and sole-bread-winner with a very large family.  Anyone who has been following the U.S. economy should readily be able to interpret my class station.   

So, the summation is that generally, the rich are people of intelligence, wisdom and drive and generally, the poor are those that lack these qualities.  There is a direct law of cause and effect at work here.
That's a fairly gross generalization.
Yes, it is a generalization and the truth of it is raw,  but how is it "gross," aside from being unpleasant?   

Quote
Rich people know how to make money, but that doesn't directly equate to intelligence.
C'mon now.  How can the rich "know" how to make money if they are imbeciles?  Does not the ability to "know" something and put that knowledge into practice equate to "intelligence?"  If not, then what would you call it?
Exhibit AA from www.dictionary.com... Intelligence: #1 - "capacity for learning, reasoning, understanding, and similar forms of mental activity; aptitude in grasping truths, relationships, facts, meanings, etc."

Quote
... Exhibit A: our current economy brought to you on a silver toilet lid...courtesy of "the rich". Wisdom? Please... (pontificating doesn't count, see exhibit A). Drive? Intrepid is one thing, greed is quite another.
The problem is now a "gross generalization" of equating "the rich" with "the bad" or "the greedy."  While there are equally unsavory elements in the mix, the fact is that our current economy is brought to us courtesy of the Fed and our gullibility as citizens to let them get away with it. (G00gle: the Power and Methods of a Central Bank).

Regardless of the sphere, we will always have the rich because someone had the pluck to take a risk and convert energy to improvement. We will always have the poor because someone was content to remain in their mediocrity (but if that one is happy, more power to 'em :up:).
Really? then why were many of the most important technological advances made by people (Tesla...) that died penny-less? Guess they were to tied up in the whole advance the human race discovery thing to be "plucky" enough to concentrate on what's really important like screwing a nickel out of everyone in sight for a piece of it.

Now, now... twisting words is not nice. :P  There are far too many examples that you or I can pull out of hat to pursue this to any detail.  I am not acquainted with Tesla, or any of the others you did not specify so I have no grounds there, but if they died penniless the details of the who, what, when, where could have a significant impact on using them to substantiate your point.  Their stories might end up proving mine! 

I do not buy into the whole "global save the planet/humanity/whales/etc." thing.  I see too many quantum leaps to give a lot of credence to them.  I do not have any direct knowledge of the validity of the "experts" or their claims.  I seriously doubt that anyone of either of our acquaintance has direct connections which leaves us with basing some pretty major life perspectives on nothing more than hearsay.  To be sure some of the players in historical societal development may have been of a good heart, but many times when one peels back the covers one finds that there is often a would-be or established power broker that is pulling the heart strings of the naive and impressionable to manipulate them to an end.  Unfortunately, sometimes this goes far beyond considerations of personal monetary position.  A certain Serbian youth and an Arch Duke come to mind; not to mention, a particular anti-semitic.

Also, there you go again attempting to create a wealth =  bad congruence.  Nope, will not work unless one needs a good chunk of swiss.

The rich produce the things and services that add to the necessities, comfort and convenience of our lives.  What has any poor person who sits in the complacency of their shanty ever added to our lives?

Actually the rich produce nothing, they merely collect the money for the stuff we poor folk produce. Considering the bar for middle-class has been moved to the six figure range we're on the edge of pricing ourselves into a third world country.
Wrong again.  The rich did produce something and it was something many people needed or wanted.  They did it well enough that it was necessary for them to grow out of manufacturing and into management.  How else did they get rich?  Fortunately, they also produced some jobs too or else "us poor folk" would not have a place for us to procduce their stuff.

Notwithstanding the shenanigans of the Fed, there is only so much money out there.  People gain wealth by relocating the money from some one's pocket to their own.  Unless you intend to condemn the whole population to Epsilons, you have to give a good deal of credit to the "provider" to produce the commodity and the "consumer" to being able to discern that the commodity is more valuable to them than the money in their pocket which is what causes the money to move from a large number of pockets into one or a few.

Might I also suggest that once again we are seeing a "rich people" = bad motif.  Hmmmm... do I detect a pattern here? :D

I do have to conciliate your last thought here.  Unfortunately, the Fed is poised to allow inflation to do just what you say.

Money is power as it allows the possessor to buy, manipulate, intimidate, influence etc. those with jingle-less pockets.  Is it not a good thing that generally the wealthy are some pretty bright folks with vision, drive and purpose?

No damnit, that's the central point this thread started on. Predatory lending practices at all levels are only serving to drive a wedge farther between the classes. Hell poor doesn't even mean poor anymore, its been overhauled (using an income based definition) to mean most of main street! Impoverished or poverty level is the (only) new way of separating ones self from the wineo that spends their days chatting with the box they live in...
Wrong again.  In the first place, I was not attempting to assign moral quality.  I was stating a fact of the way money affects those that have/have not much of it.  I do not condone it, but the fact is "Predatory Lending" only works because most of the people being taken advantage of do not have the wisdom/discipline to assign "real" value to their money and what they are trading it for.  Further, the overwhelming majority of the reactions (purchase decisions) of the poor population being discussed is motivated by their own greed where the appetite is to live in a fantasy that exceeds their real budget.  If they were content/disciplined to take the givens of their real financial ability as a serious consideration rather than something to ignore in their cost-benefit analysis they would not be taken in by the predators.  The "Pay-by-the-week" rentals could not succeed if they were not able to capitalize on an individual's personal I-gotta-have-it-at-any-cost mentality, i.e., "greed."  So, how can we condone the "greed" of the "poor" while condemning the "greed" of the "Predatory Lenders?"

Perhaps my evaluation is skewed by the fact that I have had the priveledge to know a number of elderly "poor people."  All of them lived in the urban very-low rent districts (slums?).  All of them used a taxi/bus because none could afford cars or decided they were just too expensive to keep just to have a car.  None of them had stylish clothes.  They did not have air-conditioners (even in the hot summers of Central Texas), but some used swamp-coolers, though.  Some had black-and-white televisions, but most left them off because "there was nothing fit to watch!"  Not one had a color set and all the screens were small.  All of them had a smile and kind word, but a lot of their neighbors scowled.  Two of these people were my grandparents and the rest were some of their neighbors.  If you could have seen them you would have most definitley classed them as "poor people," but you would not have wanted to call any of them "poor" unless you wanted to be laughed in your face!  My Dad tried to give my grandparents a little money from time to time, but they never took it because they did not know what they would use it for?  I did not understand that as a child, but I do now. 

Quote
Note: Just to be clear, I'm going for spirited discussion here ... I'm not attacking ;)
Well, at first blush I was not sure what was afoot, but when I saw this statement it lowered the tension level.  Anyway, I am glad you did go for a "spirited debate!"  I hope you found it to your liking?  After proofreading for a few days it was good to take out the 'ol brain and run it around the track a few times.  :Thmbsup:

However...

I would strongly encourage seeking immediate medical attention for these psychoses of severe anger against the rich and the fear you will not be included in their collective wills.  :P

</off topic>
 

Stoic Joker

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Re: poor? Pay up!
« Reply #36 on: May 24, 2009, 10:08:55 AM »
Hm... Okay, the point-for-point thing is fun, but it makes for a messy post ... so I'll try to do this in a single block without missing anything.

Interesting that you used the term "wealth", that actually jugged my memory on a distinction I'd neglected to make.  Cris Rock, in one of his comedy routines, made an interesting (albeit racial) distinction between "Rich" & "Wealthy" (race removed/not relevant here); Shaquille O'Neil is "Rich", the guy that signs his paycheck is "Wealthy".

Now, that being said, the actual numeric distinction between Middle-Class->Rich->Wealthy is neither known or important to me ... It's all above my pay grade. My boss, the lady that signs my paychecks, is (to the best of my understanding...) upper middle-class/rich I have the utmost respect for her & begrudge her absolutely nothing. However she isn't part of the problem, she is part of the old-school self-made types (that still to this day works on the floor if need be), much like yourself ... which I believe is the nerve I hit... :)


(Side tracking a bit) "Gross" does have 2 definitions ... One of which meaning great, large, or maximum i.e. Gross National Product, Gross Vehicle Weight, Gross Tonnage. It's not just a "Who Farted" thing...


So... back to my ramblings. The actual target of annoyance (and most likely everybody else’s) is somewhere between the upper 1% and the pump-n-dump schlockmeisters that are out to make a quick buck on the bodies of others.
The first group (We'll call them "Old Money") has wealth that probably was honestly earned ... by a relative that died 100 or so years ago. The current cream-of-the-crap however hasn't done an honest day’s work in generations. These are the famous for being famous virtually self proclaimed royalty types like Paris Hilton. Ever hear her ass speak in public? ...My freaking dog is more intelligent then she is!

The 2nd group of useless yahoos is the fresh out of college business majors, which intentionally create flash-in-the-pan companies that are sold off for top dollar (to some unsuspecting hardworking clod) that then tank within a year because the fad they were based around faded. Sure it worked great for the first few time, but too many people tried it too many time and it created a nice maelstrom for a lot of the SMB's to get sucked into. Intelligent? (over farming land, over fishing a pond, beating a dead horse, etc.) I think not. A lot of people are well informed and sound good & convincing … but that’s not the same thing as being intelligent, and nowhere near being wise.

The predatory lending thing is just a buzz-word that the media has shoved up our collective asses, true. But it doesn’t alter the fact that business as usual, the way “we” (as a country) have been conducting it, has to stop before it completely destroys us.  Back in the 40s at the end of the war we gave the Japanese all of the manufacturing paradigms that (our “Great Minds” thought were too much of a hassle to bother with) they then implemented and stomped the crap out of us with. Now we are back pedaling trying to do things “their way” in the sketchy hopes of survival (Does the expression a bit too cocky come to mind?).

I’m not equating rich with bad here … I’m just saying if the shoe fits…

wraith808

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Re: poor? Pay up!
« Reply #37 on: May 24, 2009, 11:05:56 AM »
Hmmm... my definition of rich vs wealthy is not in the amount of money you have, but how you have to work to maintain it.  For example, Shaquille O'Neal is very much rich, but we won't see how wealthy he is until his career is behind him.  Michael Jordan who doesn't have to do anything at this point to maintain his standard of living is wealthy.

Stoic Joker

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Re: poor? Pay up!
« Reply #38 on: May 24, 2009, 01:40:35 PM »
Hmmm... my definition of rich vs wealthy is not in the amount of money you have, but how you have to work to maintain it.  For example, Shaquille O'Neal is very much rich, but we won't see how wealthy he is until his career is behind him.  Michael Jordan who doesn't have to do anything at this point to maintain his standard of living is wealthy.
Meh... I think one is cause & one is effect ... but yes I do get (and agree with) your point.

SKesselman

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Re: poor? Pay up!
« Reply #39 on: May 27, 2009, 11:53:13 PM »
What do you do if your TV dies and now you have nothing?
You do what many of us who have been really poor did, viz. exercise self-control, do without, and adjust your attitude accordingly. Who ever suffered from lack of TV?

TV?  TV???   ;D  ;D  ;D  When I have been without, a broken TV would've been the least of my worries! I didn't have a TV for quite a while, because why have one when you can't even get reception without paying another $40 a month? Not to mention, finding the guilt-free time to watch it, another luxury. Time is money. Oh, and let's not forget the furniture you sit on to watch TV, that is, if you can afford it. Like Chris says, you just deal.

People have their different sets of standards, and to each his own, but...when you're completely without, TV really is the icing on the cake IMHO.
-Sarah

Deozaan

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Re: poor? Pay up!
« Reply #40 on: May 28, 2009, 12:12:01 AM »
What do you do if your TV dies and now you have nothing?

I can't remember which, but it was either Dan McCormick or Bob Proctor who said something similar to:

Quote
The rich have big libraries.
The poor have big TVs.

« Last Edit: May 28, 2009, 12:15:46 AM by Deozaan »

cianoc

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Re: poor? Pay up!
« Reply #41 on: May 28, 2009, 04:08:36 AM »
Doesn't matter which one of them said it, it isn't particularly true (of either).
Some rich people have libraries to show off, but they don't actually read the books in it. They might mess up the leather binding.

I really don't get the moralism that says poor people have to suffer and have nothing fun (TV is cheap fun). And if you want to get moralistic about it, have you seen the crap that rich people spend their money on? Talk about tacky.