And the direct links can be conceptualised like this:

-	parent(s)	-
other links	NOTE	source(s)
-	child(ren)	-

there is a reference link on nearly every (first collection) or nearly every second note (second collection) on average.
Three types of linking can be distinguished:
a)References in the context of a larger structural outline: When beginning a major line of thought Luhmann sometimes noted on the first card several of the aspects to be addressed and marked them by a capital letter that referred to a card (or set of consecutive cards) that was numbered accordingly and placed at least in relative proximity to the card containing the outline. This structure comes closest to resembling the outline of an article or the table of contents of a book and therefore doesn’t really use the potentials of the collection as a web of notes.
b)Collective references: At the beginning of a section devoted to a specific subject area, one can often find a card that refers to a number of other cards in the collection that have some connection with the subject or concept addressed in that section. A card of this kind can list up to 25 references and will typically specify the respective subject or concept in addition to the number. These references can indicate cards that are related by subject matter and in close proximity or to cards that are far apart in other sections of the collection, the latter being the normal case.
c)Single references: At a particular place in a normal note Luhmann often made a reference to another card in the collection that was also relevant to the special argument in question; in most cases the referred card is located at an entirely different place in the file, frequently in the context of a completely different discussion or subject.

So the main zettelkasten has one link for every two cards.
There are sub-sequences (not parent-child necessarily, but most will be) where the first card contains something like an outline and look like the draft of a paper. So using the zettelkasten as part of a writing workflow rather than simply thoughts and information.

I'm sure IQ is one of the programs that is most capable of working a zettelkasten system.
So long as you can adjust yourself to the workflow required.
Once you have worked out what that is in your case. I'm pretty sure that a lot of ways will work, even if they don't tick all the purist boxes. I'm going to try to ensure that all the boxes can be ticked in my method and then just go from there.

The need to read selectively is emphasised repeatedly.
I can't help thinking that it's an attempt to make a virtue of a necessity because there's no way this process can be followed with very fast extensive reading.

I'm sure it will get quicker and easier with practice!???

since creative writing involves fiction and creating a fake world with all the logic and characters....i feel like for something like that, i need to make a separate folder.  it cant be part of my overall single zettel that i use for actual reality and academic type knowledge.  so i can have on zettel for everything in reality, which will be the big, main database.  but for, say, writing screenplays, i need to use a separate sandbox because i dont need those ideas linking to real world ideas.

For me it's all the same. It's all real. Just stuff. Factual and fictional both need to produce an output. I really don't want to go into a separate silo to write fiction. For most sizeable writing projects, I will do a beat sheet and keep in in the Resources folder; templates there too. Makes no difference if it is fact or fiction, there are word targets and structure and pacing to be managed. Admittedly, if I'm intending to cook dinner, and collect recipes and ingredient details, then the output will will be a meal rather than words. I don't expect everything to link to everything, although I suppose there could be a description of a meal in a piece of fiction.

But it's about what makes sense to each of us individually. That's the most important thing. The zettel needs to reflect our own individual thinking.

one zettel/folder for everything in real life
separate zettels for creative writing projects

so i might be leaning towards a multi-folder system like dormouse, but maybe structured my own way.  we'll see.

My folders are only for the convenience of file storage, and knowing what stage a note has reached (ie related to workflow management). I expect to have only one zettel.

With his sections and sub-sections, Luhmann effectively had quite a number of zettels, except all in the same wooden box. Like folders.

The big difference between us is that you intend to use a program and I intend simply to have files. I assume that the program will deal with the workflow stage issue for you.

Quote from: superboyac on November 03, 2019, 09:04 PM

ok some more updates....
this is the developer of zettlr, and a nice video explaining some of the methodology and what dormouse talked about regarding luhman's original system and how technology affects it.
https://www.youtube..../watch?v=c5Tst3-zcWI

I watched that video, and came away with the fact that it seems to be a wiki with tags, where the name of the file is the ID.  Is there something more than that I'm missing?

no, i think that's the jist of it.  What i got out of it was that a note can be anything, and the only things to remember are the ID of the note (which doesn't matter since its digital), tags link subjects together, and hard-links are the "zettl" specific links.

ok dormouse, i still kind of want to copy your system as my first attempt....this is what i've gathered:
sources
resources
actual zettl
writing
temp
annotated

That's right.

• Sources & resources are linked but not part. Exactly the same system Luhmann used.
• Temp and annotated are just staging areas that help me keep my place. I'd expect them to be unnecessary in many programs which would have their own method of tracking.
• Writing is where I will put longer pieces or those nearer completion. Again it's a convenience. I may have things to do with these MSS that will be totally external to the zettel. Luhmann must have done something very similar because his MSS were outside the zettel and his unfinished books wre found around his study when he died.

temp, this is where you put notes before they are processed with all the proper links and maybe even the kind of writing in your own words that you are supposed to do with zettl.
annoted, not sure....this is where you place notes from the temp folder, kind of a staging area, where you add the links right before moving to the zettl?

My embryo process is:-

1. read and highlight/copy, making fleeting notes. I try to make these one idea; I could use the same highlight twice if I see two ideas. They go into temp folder.
2. I go through those making my permanent first stage notes. Once I have done that they go into the Annotated folder. (For the moment, I have the excerpt from the source at the bottom, the fleeting note next up, and then the permanent note at the top). They then need tagging and naming.
3. When I have completed that stage for the group, I make second stage notes. This is the stage that takes the most thought, distilling the essence from all I have read. One idea, one thought. Many first stage notes can go together to make one of these, or a first stage thought make be linked to many. I might do a Structure Note. I then put these into a parent-child sequence and add all the links. And move the Annotated notes and these notes into the main Notes folder.

The process is definitely shaped by the fact I'm using document files rather than some other method.

btw, what kind of file naming scheme do you use?

Unique identifier (YYYYMMDDhhmmss) + Anything that will make some sort of sense - something about the note, not its links + tags []

I am having a hard time understanding what this means (from Zettlr documentation):

The ID RegEx
Zettlr uses regular expressions internally to filter out the ID of a file. It looks for that pattern, and if it finds a string that matches this pattern, it assumes that as the ID of the file. Please note that the first match in a file will be assumed the ID, never the last! This means: If you choose to use only four digits as your ID, the regular expression would also match years inside your file. As Zettlr simply takes the first ID, make sure that the very first thing in your file is the ID of that file.

This makes it sound like for every note or file i have, the first line of each note should be the 14-digit ID.  But, in all the screenshots of the program, i don't see any note like this.  furthermore, most of the notes in the screenshots have titles without the ID in them, like just plain titles.  A little confused.

Does it mean that it uses the ID to find the file, but doesn't display it?

I just discovered the answer.  When you have a note file in zettlr, it is looking for that ID pattern to generate the internal db ID.  So usually it is created automatically when the note is created.  However, you can override that and type something else for the file name, like just words, and then there is no id number.  When that happens, zettlr doesn't know or have an ID for that.  So what the instruction is saying is to have that 14-digit number somewhere, either the filename or the first thing in the actual file content, so that it detects the ID.  I just tried it...what happens is if i remove the number from the note AND the filename, the ID of the note disappears in zettlr.  it doesn't know.  when i add the ID to the note, first line, and leave the filename still only words, zettlr gets the ID instantly.  so it is looking to match that pattern.

So what I'm going to do is put the ID as the first line of all my notes, but not the title, because i'd rather have something descriptive in the title.

here is what i'm talking about:

the first not, i have the ID in the filename, i have the ID in the actual note, and the ID in the program zettlr (gray) is shown.  ID's all over the place
the second one, i have the ID in the filename, no other title in the filename, and the note is blank.  the program detects the ID from the filename
in the third one (test note 123), i have the ID as the first line of the actual note, but not in the filename.  this gets detected right away.  so i like this.  I don't have to have the ID in the filename itself, so the filename can be just the title, which is nice.

when you talk about Sources...
do you mean that, like if its a pdf, the ENTIRE thing is in sources?  or just a reference to it?  or just quotes or tidbits?

so i just tried doing this...

i had a quote i wanted to address.
I start the note, put the quote.  then i proceed to write all my thoughts on this.  It was a lot, lol.  way more than lurman would put on a note card.  I feel im doing it wrong.  I think im doing more than one thought.  maybe multiple thoughts.  so mentally, i still feel i am not getting it, lol.

I feel im doing it wrong.  I think im doing more than one thought.  maybe multiple thoughts.  so mentally, i still feel i am not getting it, lol.

I don't know that you're doing anything wrong, except being too wordy. It is hard.

• It will probably be easier when you are more used to it.
• It will probably be easier when you already have an extensive network and are starting with an idea about the thoughts and where they would fit.
• But part of the difficulty, I suspect, is making your thoughts tight and precise. I'm not sure how much easier that can get because it does involve intense thinking.

My guess is that what you have done,so far, is what I have been calling first stage notes. I think you need a gap before going over them (iirc, Ahrens said that Luhmann went through them in the evening). At that point you need to split them into their constituent parts and then write new notes carefully, one thought to a note. There may be a sequence to these thoughts (in which case there's a parent-child sequence) and they will all link to your first note.

When I look at posts on zettelkasten.de, I can't avoid the suspicion that most of them aren't doing it right. Too much linking, too many notes, not enough thinking. Luhmann's main (second) zettelkasten was started 1963 and stopped in 1997: that's 34 years. It has 67,000 cards in one, admittedly wide ranging, area of interest. Less than 2000 cards a year. Assuming 250 working days, he averaged 8 cards a day. Eight thoughts that he decided to record. If he was doing a lot of other things, then maybe one thought every half hour. The thinking isn't easy, achieving the precision isn't easy. There's disentangling the thoughts from each other. And composing the words.

Quote from: superboyac on November 05, 2019, 08:48 PM

I feel im doing it wrong.  I think im doing more than one thought.  maybe multiple thoughts.  so mentally, i still feel i am not getting it, lol.

I don't know that you're doing anything wrong, except being too wordy. It is hard.

• It will probably be easier when you are more used to it.
• It will probably be easier when you already have an extensive network and are starting with an idea about the thoughts and where they would fit.
• But part of the difficulty, I suspect, is making your thoughts tight and precise. I'm not sure how much easier that can get because it does involve intense thinking.

My guess is that what you have done,so far, is what I have been calling first stage notes. I think you need a gap before going over them (iirc, Ahrens said that Luhmann went through them in the evening). At that point you need to split them into their constituent parts and then write new notes carefully, one thought to a note. There may be a sequence to these thoughts (in which case there's a parent-child sequence) and they will all link to your first note.

When I look at posts on zettelkasten.de, I can't avoid the suspicion that most of them aren't doing it right. Too much linking, too many notes, not enough thinking. Luhmann's main (second) zettelkasten was started 1963 and stopped in 1997: that's 34 years. It has 67,000 cards in one, admittedly wide ranging, area of interest. Less than 2000 cards a year. Assuming 250 working days, he averaged 8 cards a day. Eight thoughts that he decided to record. If he was doing a lot of other things, then maybe one thought every half hour. The thinking isn't easy, achieving the precision isn't easy. There's disentangling the thoughts from each other. And composing the words.

Ah!  yes that makes sense.  I can see how this can drastically help not only my thinking, but effective writing.  very cool.  I am rather excited about this.