Author Topic: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten (Read 1,750,448 times)

Dormouse · « **Reply #700 on:** September 07, 2020, 10:23 AM »

Quote from: JavaJones on September 06, 2020, 11:08 PM

DB component

WriteMonkey 3 operates a hybrid system; JSON database with option for documents to be synced to independent files. That works OK for me.

Obsidian has a settings (workspace) file and, I think, a JSON file with some saved info. It automatically replaces both if they are deleted, but there's some database functionality at least during a session.

I think they may extend the database functionality. I will be watching carefully what they do with that. They have already reserved YAML front matter for themselves (I believe this is to expedite future plugin functions); I'm definitely not keen on this approach because it starts cluttering the file up with extraneous stuff - I'd prefer plugins were allowed to use a JSON file.
Simple for me to avoid plugins I don't like. If Obsidian itself goes in a direction I dislike, I'll stop using it or just have updates turned off.

wraith808 · « **Reply #701 on:** September 07, 2020, 07:01 PM »

Quote from: JavaJones on September 06, 2020, 11:08 PM

While I agree with your overall point, again I think this DB or files thing may be a false dichotomy, at least for many people. I've yet to see a compelling real-world example of specific, practical workflows that would necessitate "files" that have no DB component. I think you may feel strongly that your own workflows demonstrate this, so I'd love to hear some examples of how you intend to (or already do) work this way and what significant advantages it brings you (vs. for example an Obsidian plugin that does the same thing as some external tool you use directly on files).

I use plain text editors on my files, even on the go. I use a wide variety of them and change as I want. I also sync to git repos in several places as backups. DB is really not a false dichotomy. It might be in for some people- at least until their service goes the way of the dodo- but in practice, it leads to very different ownership of your data.

superboyac · « **Reply #702 on:** September 07, 2020, 09:02 PM »

quick update:

I've been working through all this notetaking business with markdown the past year, trying it all out, seeing what sticks, etc...this entire thread.

None of these methods are sticking for me. But it has rekindled my writing projects, and I've been writing a lot.

And you know what is sticking?? This program called Scapple. It's just a brainstorming tool. You write in bubbles and connect them, that's it. But I have been using it similar to how a zettel works, which is one scapple file per thought. A few bubbles connected, boom done. It is great, and it is sticking with me.

Unfortunately, it doesn't have any extra features. NOthing to search, nothing linked, no tags, etc. But you can't do that with a real zettel anyway.

SO why do I like it? It's very visual. With the bubbles and colors, it is very fast and easy to understand an idea, relative to reading linear text. VERY fast.

ANyway, probably not super helpful. But I am loving it.

Dormouse · « **Reply #703 on:** September 07, 2020, 09:43 PM »

Quote from: superboyac on September 07, 2020, 09:02 PM

This program called Scapple. It's just a brainstorming tool. You write in bubbles and connect them, that's it. But I have been using it similar to how a zettel works, which is one scapple file per thought.

I periodically return to Scapple. It's one of those programs I think ought to suit me (because it's visual) but never quite does in practice. It's very good if it's working for you though. Quite a lot of people are major fans.

superboyac · « **Reply #704 on:** September 08, 2020, 12:03 AM »

Quote from: Dormouse on September 07, 2020, 09:43 PM

Quote from: superboyac on September 07, 2020, 09:02 PM
This program called Scapple. It's just a brainstorming tool. You write in bubbles and connect them, that's it. But I have been using it similar to how a zettel works, which is one scapple file per thought.
I periodically return to Scapple. It's one of those programs I think ought to suit me (because it's visual) but never quite does in practice. It's very good if it's working for you though. Quite a lot of people are major fans.

Here's an example .... I think this is better than at least cards on paper. Printing this out would be even better.

wraith808 · « **Reply #705 on:** September 08, 2020, 01:58 AM »

I still use Scapple for plotting my writing and such. I actually use that and gingko- I just keep the files linked in my notes.

superboyac · « **Reply #706 on:** September 08, 2020, 02:12 AM »

Quote from: wraith808 on September 08, 2020, 01:58 AM

gingko

nice....you must be a writer!

JavaJones · « **Reply #707 on:** September 08, 2020, 02:53 AM »

I'm really interested in specific benefits of direct text editing, but so far I am hearing *that* it is useful and important to you, but not much about *why*. That's OK, it is enough that it *is* important to you, clearly.

As far as general advice about how to choose a tool(set) in the current landscape, I maintain my position that "database vs. text" is a false dichotomy. It is definitely more useful IMO to state specific roots of concern that *may* arise from those two paradigms, such as "data ownership" (not a given with a DB, e.g. if it's using an open DB format and/or all content is markdown and it has a robust exporter). Which is part of why I want to know these specific advantages and use cases for external tools operating on text files.

It may simply come down simply to it "feels right". Or is rooted in a more abstract value or moral stance such as unwillingness (perhaps reasonable) to trust a company with your data under any circumstances. That kind of foundational limit will pretty severely restrict your choices, but that's OK if you understand and accept the trade-offs, if that specific value is important enough to you.

In the end whatever helps you be productive is great. It may not help others choose tools as a heuristic for evaluation and decision, but it's certainly a valid stance.

@superboyac, have you played with mind mapping tools? I would imagine so, but don't they work exactly like "Scapple"? Only some are way more mature than it sounds like it is currently... I would go crazy without Search.

- Oshyan

wraith808 · « **Reply #708 on:** September 08, 2020, 03:27 AM »

Quote from: JavaJones on September 08, 2020, 02:53 AM

but not much about *why*

I don't get what you're missing. I stated the why above. Because it's portable and usable in other applications at the same time. It's also able to be backed up in whatever format I want, and is not locked into a specific vendor's format. Dormouse stated the same concern. What other 'why' are you looking for that might be missing?

Dormouse · « **Reply #709 on:** September 08, 2020, 09:35 AM »

Quote from: JavaJones on September 08, 2020, 02:53 AM

I want to know these specific advantages and use cases for external tools operating on text files.

External tools have already been through a competitive process to decide which ones function best for me.
They have their own development trajectory which is entirely independent of a whole database program.
I can add any program at any point to gain a feature. I am not dependent upon the database developers choices and preferences.

Dormouse · « **Reply #710 on:** September 08, 2020, 10:15 AM »

Quote from: JavaJones on September 08, 2020, 02:53 AM

"database vs. text" is a false dichotomy

Clearly we disagree.

It is a dichotomy - the programs either work using a database or they use files. (Or potentially both in the case of WriteMonkey 3).

Quote from: JavaJones on September 08, 2020, 02:53 AM

"data ownership" (not a given with a DB, e.g. if it's using an open DB format and/or all content is markdown and it has a robust exporter).

Here you are introducing caveats specifying things to be watched for in a database.
Such watching is unnecessary with files.
In practice, databases don't use pure markdown (although they may attempt to export it ). The file based programs aren't pure either as they all prefer wikilinks. Not that any markdown is really pure.
And exports from programs like Roam need a lot of work to convert to useful files - and that is likely to increase as Roam continues to add features.

In theory, a database can provide any feature that a program using files has.
There are additional benefits, such as only having one file to backup. And speed - everything is loaded in a usable format whereas files have to be loaded before any processing.
But also disbenefits - they're rigid, you can only do what the program does; databases corrupt; export may not be as robust as you thought, especially if development is rapid.
The differences make the difference between the approaches a useful dichotomy to consider. For many, maybe even the majority, the benefits tip on the side of the database. Going with either approach means accepting the disadvantages of that choice.

Dormouse · « **Reply #711 on:** September 08, 2020, 10:18 AM »

Quote from: JavaJones on September 08, 2020, 02:53 AM

"Scapple"? Only some are way more mature than it sounds like it is currently

Scapple is actually an old program. Designed as an adjunct to Scrivener. The simplicity is deliberate.

panzer · « **Reply #712 on:** September 08, 2020, 12:55 PM »

Notebag is a fully keyboard-compatible note taking app that links all your knowledge and gets out of your way:
https://notebag.app/

superboyac · « **Reply #713 on:** September 08, 2020, 07:15 PM »

Quote from: JavaJones on September 08, 2020, 02:53 AM

I'm really interested in specific benefits of direct text editing, but so far I am hearing *that* it is useful and important to you, but not much about *why*. That's OK, it is enough that it *is* important to you, clearly.

As far as general advice about how to choose a tool(set) in the current landscape, I maintain my position that "database vs. text" is a false dichotomy. It is definitely more useful IMO to state specific roots of concern that *may* arise from those two paradigms, such as "data ownership" (not a given with a DB, e.g. if it's using an open DB format and/or all content is markdown and it has a robust exporter). Which is part of why I want to know these specific advantages and use cases for external tools operating on text files.

It may simply come down simply to it "feels right". Or is rooted in a more abstract value or moral stance such as unwillingness (perhaps reasonable) to trust a company with your data under any circumstances. That kind of foundational limit will pretty severely restrict your choices, but that's OK if you understand and accept the trade-offs, if that specific value is important enough to you.

In the end whatever helps you be productive is great. It may not help others choose tools as a heuristic for evaluation and decision, but it's certainly a valid stance.

@superboyac, have you played with mind mapping tools? I would imagine so, but don't they work exactly like "Scapple"? Only some are way more mature than it sounds like it is currently... I would go crazy without Search.

- Oshyan

I've probably tried ALL the mind mapping tools in the last 20 years LOLL. jk....

But I've tried so many. I don't like mind mapping tools because they force you to use their methods...it's not as freeform as just drawing a bubble and connecting it to another. A loooooong time ago, when I was doing this here, mouser suggested Edge Diagrammer, a simple outlining tool (like visio but simpler). I used that for a while. But once I saw Scapple, it was much more perfect.

dormouse...I also recently tried Scrivener...didn't see it being terribly useful. Eventually, I was like I'll just use Final Draft directly for screenwriting. But Scapple still is very unique and perfect. Scrivener reminds me of another strange application from back in the day called....liquid story builder. Same thing, didn't stick.

Dormouse · « **Reply #714 on:** September 08, 2020, 08:06 PM »

Quote from: superboyac on September 08, 2020, 07:15 PM

another strange application from back in the day called....liquid story builder

Nothing comes close to the strangeness of Liquid Story Binder. It worked, if you could learn the techniques, but it was always in the way of any creative flow. It was strangely antiquated even when it first launched.

Scrivener also has a steep learning curve, but is a good program. Particularly good for some things, especially if you write in small chunks, but mostly OK and functional. But the Windows version always struggles to keep up. After an extraordinarily long gestation the developer promised the final version would be out around this time last year. Still hasn't made it. But works reasonably well, doesn't lose data and can be used free until it's finished. I've used it from time to time but it has never aided creativity, just getting the job done.
And not really designed around screenwriting.

I like Scapple, but I like using a pen and Android tablet more.

superboyac · « **Reply #715 on:** September 10, 2020, 12:22 AM »

Quote from: Dormouse on September 08, 2020, 08:06 PM

Quote from: superboyac on September 08, 2020, 07:15 PM
another strange application from back in the day called....liquid story builder
Nothing comes close to the strangeness of Liquid Story Binder. It worked, if you could learn the techniques, but it was always in the way of any creative flow. It was strangely antiquated even when it first launched.

Scrivener also has a steep learning curve, but is a good program. Particularly good for some things, especially if you write in small chunks, but mostly OK and functional. But the Windows version always struggles to keep up. After an extraordinarily long gestation the developer promised the final version would be out around this time last year. Still hasn't made it. But works reasonably well, doesn't lose data and can be used free until it's finished. I've used it from time to time but it has never aided creativity, just getting the job done.
And not really designed around screenwriting.

I like Scapple, but I like using a pen and Android tablet more.

i mean if we are talking going primitive....eventually i can end up scirbbling diagrams and saving the images, and those images are my zettel.

Dormouse · « **Reply #716 on:** September 10, 2020, 01:51 AM »

Quote from: superboyac on September 10, 2020, 12:22 AM

eventually i can end up scirbbling diagrams and saving the images, and those images are my zettel.

I do that!
A bit. Sometimes just drawing on paper or a board and saving a photo. Sometimes just hand writing. OCR is remarkable now. But mostly on my tablet.
And gets processed in exactly the way anything typed.
I find it much more productive to rough some things out by hand.

wraith808 · « **Reply #717 on:** September 10, 2020, 02:37 AM »

I do it on a Rocketbook ThinkBoard mounted next to my desk, and it reads my diagrams and handwriting easily.

panzer · « **Reply #718 on:** September 11, 2020, 10:37 PM »

Logseq is a local-first, non-linear, outliner notebook for organizing and sharing your personal knowledge base:
https://logseq.com/

JavaJones · « **Reply #719 on:** September 12, 2020, 02:37 AM »

Quote from: panzer on September 11, 2020, 10:37 PM

Logseq is a local-first, non-linear, outliner notebook for organizing and sharing your personal knowledge base:
https://logseq.com/

My first thought was "Ugh, another entrant in this crowded space? It never ends!". But actually Logseq may be the Roam alternative I've been looking for! They've already solved block *and* page embeds as well as syncing/backup (Github). In that sense they're ahead of Obsidian. Very interesting indeed.

- Oshyan

Dormouse · « **Reply #720 on:** September 12, 2020, 07:45 AM »

Quote from: JavaJones on September 12, 2020, 02:37 AM

Logseq may be the Roam alternative I've been looking for! They've already solved block *and* page embeds as well as syncing/backup (Github). In that sense they're ahead of Obsidian. Very interesting indeed.

As an intended Roam equivalent (database outliner; self described as Roam + github) blocks are straightforward. I thought Obsidian now does page embeds, though its not something I've tried to use.
Foam has introduced block references using UIDs.

I've only had a cursory look. Imports the Roam .json but Obsidian markdown files are less straightforward because of syntax differences.

Intends to switch the database to HTML in future, to reduce the amount of processing involved in markdown conversion:

Quote

Yes, the html version of Logseq will store user's notes using a datascript db instead of markdown or org. There're a lot overheads to sync the plain text with the internal db. Also, we'd like the html version to be used for real-time collaborations in the future.

Quote
Any more info regarding what that html fs-sync would imply?
What I'm thinking about now is that user can save the serialized db to the native file system and load it next time when they open the computer, so there's no need to login, no need to sync using Github or Dropbox.

Quote
(Imo, would be so cool if logseq would be a org/markdown browser/editor interface ontop of the raw files its built on atm, that also would allow for graph querying of the filesystem org/markdown files.)

Yes, we'll have a desktop app version which will work directly with the native file system.

panzer · « **Reply #721 on:** September 16, 2020, 04:33 PM »

BookStack is a simple, self-hosted, easy-to-use platform for organising and storing information:
https://www.bookstackapp.com/

Nodebook:
https://nodebook.io

Knovigator:
https://knovigator.com/

Argdown:
https://argdown.org/

Thinktool:
https://thinktool.io/

Drift is an adaptation of TiddlyWiki:
https://akhater.github.io/drift/

Stemic:
https://stemic.app/

Graph Commons:
https://graphcommons.com/

Milkr:
https://milkr.io

Sligrid:
https://www.sligrid.com

Scapple:
https://www.literatureandlatte.com/scapple

JavaJones · « **Reply #722 on:** September 16, 2020, 11:12 PM »

Logseq also has a public roadmap and API is on the list and being worked on. I don't know how/why but despite being very new, it seems to be further along in some key areas I care about vs. others (even vs. Obsidian in some respects).
https://github.com/logseq/docs/projects/1

Even areas I *don't* personally care about but which might drive adoption (and thus help ensure longer-term success) are getting attention, like localization. Does Obsidian have that yet? Or Roam? (I don't think so) Logseq does! Let's not even get started on Notion's localization odyssey.

Maybe I just like the dev and his user engagement so far:
https://twitter.com/logseq

- Oshyan

superboyac · « **Reply #723 on:** September 17, 2020, 01:01 AM »

Quote from: JavaJones on September 16, 2020, 11:12 PM

Logseq also has a public roadmap and API is on the list and being worked on. I don't know how/why but despite being very new, it seems to be further along in some key areas I care about vs. others (even vs. Obsidian in some respects).
https://github.com/logseq/docs/projects/1

Even areas I *don't* personally care about but which might drive adoption (and thus help ensure longer-term success) are getting attention, like localization. Does Obsidian have that yet? Or Roam? (I don't think so) Logseq does! Let's not even get started on Notion's localization odyssey.

Maybe I just like the dev and his user engagement so far:
https://twitter.com/logseq

- Oshyan

Dormouse · « **Reply #724 on:** September 17, 2020, 10:19 AM »

Quote from: JavaJones on September 16, 2020, 11:12 PM

I don't know how/why but despite being very new, it seems to be further along in some key areas I care about vs. others (even vs. Obsidian in some respects).

It's features seem to be a better fit for you. A code exchange with Athens is apparently being discussed.
Not for me, being database not files.