Author Topic: XYplorer File Manager (Read 296,230 times)

ad-min · « **Reply #100 on:** November 18, 2007, 09:25 PM »

Quote from: DonL on November 18, 2007, 05:00 PM

Thanks for the hate review at snapfiles. It won't increase the chance for DP in XY, but you probably feel better now.
(If you are not luc0815: ignore this post.)

I think 3 out of 5 stars isn't really a hate review. You know, tastes differ...and some guys just prefer Dual Pane.

Some time ago I couldn't imagine to use a single pane file manager. I was very happy with SpeedCommander and DirectoryOpus.

But now I can't imagine to use anything apart from XYplorer to manage my files. Yes, it must be this Zen thing.

I also think you shouldn't implement a feature you don't like yourself, Don. The special thing about XYplorer is, that everyone who reads your forum can see at once, that you want to create a masterpiece. You only add features when you are convinced that they really improve XYplorer without bloating it.

Earning money is important (and DP would very likely bring more registrations), yes, but in the end it's mostly better to remain true to one's principles. To try to make all people happy is very rarely a good thing. If you keep on improving XYplorer more and more users will realize that DP may be a nice additional feature but it isn't something you can't life without.

But if you - some day - think that DP really would improve the XYperience (there may be these rare occasions when it is handy to compare folders visually) and you find a way to integrate it, it would mean that DP isn't implemented because it is requested but because it really is a feature to make XYplorer even better.

luc · « **Reply #101 on:** November 18, 2007, 09:28 PM »

Hi Don,

somehow you might want to try to re-calibrate your judgements. First your are implicitely describing a dual pane mode in a file manager as "buzz feature" (it was introduced 15 years ago, or even earlier?) and then you are calling the following a hate review:
"A very powerful and fast file manager with plenty of helpful inventions enhancing file management. It is multi-tabbed and you can open several instances; However, what is missing completely is a straightforward classic dual-pane mode, the easiest way to manage files visually. Thus I can recommend this tool only for people planning to deal with a steeper learning curve to master a powerful tool. There are many other file managers available which are more suitable for visually and mouse oriented users." So, where exactly is hate expressed in there?

Unfortunately,you do not seem to have attempted a single rationale argument in this discussion and prefer to write about "buzz features of the day" and "hate reviews". People have different demands regarding filemanagers and might be wired differently. For example I am not the only who would be driven crazy if I would have to use a MAC for more than an hour; only because of its file management approach.
( BTW, nobody who has visited the XYplorer forum will realistically expect the implementation of the buzz feature, as it has apparently been requested often and already long ago and your aversion to it is pretty obvious). You cannot stand a dual pane mode for an unknown reason; that is fine, as XY is obviously your personal creation. Pseudo arguments will not help potential customers.

Quote from: DonL on November 18, 2007, 05:00 PM

Quote from: luc on November 15, 2007, 02:33 AM
A dual pane layout is, in my eyes at least, not exactly a buzz feature. ...
Thanks for the hate review at snapfiles. It won't increase the chance for DP in XY, but you probably feel better now.

(If you are not luc0815: ignore this post.)

Ralf Maximus · « **Reply #102 on:** November 18, 2007, 09:52 PM »

Quote from: DonL on November 18, 2007, 05:00 PM

Quote from: luc on November 15, 2007, 02:33 AM
A dual pane layout is, in my eyes at least, not exactly a buzz feature. ...
Thanks for the hate review at snapfiles. It won't increase the chance for DP in XY, but you probably feel better now.

(If you are not luc0815: ignore this post.)

Don, if you don't want to add the feature, then don't. Say you have no plans to implement it then case closed. You don't even need to justify yourself; it's your product and your vision.

So why pursue this in a public forum? What are you hoping to accomplish?

nosh · « **Reply #103 on:** November 18, 2007, 10:54 PM »

I'm too used to dual panes to ever consider a file manager that doesn't support them.

However, from a programmer's perspective I can totally empathize with Don. XYplorer is his baby and I can see how it would feel just wrong to implement something that he doesn't truly believe in.

The discussions on file managers usually tend to be generic in nature. We need to have a more technical thread where people loyal to different file managers discuss how they get identical tasks done. It could open us up to an app that may be more suited to us and also make clear if things like dual panes are truly beneficial for some things or simply a "buzz feature".

DonL · « **Reply #104 on:** November 19, 2007, 08:33 AM »

Allow one post to answer all, and allow short answers...

>>I think 3 out of 5 stars isn't really a hate review
What is the impulse for a comment that basically says: "The app is okay, but there are a lot of better ones." 3 stars is a bad rating. Less than 3 stars would just have questioned the credibility of the author. I think (this is my opinion) the intention of expressing this "opinion" was either to punish me, or to put some pressure on me to change my mind about DP. I don't say it's not okay to give only 3 stars. Of course it is. I just felt that this particular case was mainly motivated by the frustration about the lack of a particular "feature". I put feature in quotes because DP is a whole different approach to file management, not just a feature. It's not just about adding a 2nd pane. So what Luc is saying is: "This apple has a severe problem: it does not taste like an orange."

>>But if you - some day - think that DP really would improve the XYperience ...
Of course! I would implement it on the same day. Or start implementing it, because it would take 1 or 2 weeks probably.

>>First your are implicitely describing a dual pane mode in a file manager as "buzz feature"
No. Read again. My post where I talked about buzz features was a general reply to the question of sri, whether an author should add a feature if a large number of users want it. I found this an interesting question and expressed my opinion about it. I did not even think about DP when writing this!

>>So why pursue this in a public forum? What are you hoping to accomplish?
I don't, man! Read the thread. It's not me that starts talking about DP, never ever. As I just said, I answered sri's question in a general way (and I would like to discuss it further because it is a very good question!).
In my forum I have published a "roadmap" of XYplorer future developement, and you'll see DP is there! Whoops? Am I finally turning corrupt? Am I getting soft? No, but I'm getting realistic (which is a common euphemism for getting corrupt, I know...

). I realized that without dual pane I automatically get lower ratings on many software sites. And this sucks. The other advantage of adding it would be obviously: no more discussions about it!!!

>>XYplorer is his baby
Well, I'm not an isolated mad scientist with a bizarre vision of file management. I have many paying customers and many contributing users in the forum, and they all are pretty happy with XY for a long time. Hey, this app is not just good, it is successful!

sri · « **Reply #105 on:** November 19, 2007, 08:40 AM »

Quote from: DonL on November 19, 2007, 08:33 AM

....
In my forum I have published a "roadmap" of XYplorer future developement, and you'll see DP is there! Whoops? Am I finally turning corrupt? Am I getting soft? No, but I'm getting realistic (which is a common euphemism for getting corrupt, I know... ). I realized that without dual pane I automatically get lower ratings on many software sites. And this sucks. The other advantage of adding it would be obviously: no more discussions about it!!!
...

To me, everything else blurred out except the above. Hurray!

ad-min · « **Reply #106 on:** November 19, 2007, 09:07 AM »

Quote from: DonL on November 19, 2007, 08:33 AM

>>I think 3 out of 5 stars isn't really a hate review
[...]I just felt that this particular case was mainly motivated by the frustration about the lack of a particular "feature". [...] So what Luc is saying is: "This apple has a severe problem: it does not taste like an orange."

Yes, I see your point there.

Quote from: DonL on November 19, 2007, 08:33 AM

I put feature in quotes because DP is a whole different approach to file management, not just a feature. It's not just about adding a 2nd pane.

You are absolutely right, DP is far more than a feature, it's a different concept. The question is: Can it be implemented without destroying the present XYperience? Will XYplorer with DP (even if it is optional there have to be so many changes throughout the program) just be another clone as all the other file managers? It's a difficult design question...there could be much more destroyed than achieved.

Quote from: DonL on November 19, 2007, 08:33 AM

I have many paying customers and many contributing users in the forum, and they all are pretty happy with XY for a long time. Hey, this app is not just good, it is successful!

Pretty happy? That's more than an understatement, I love this application!

Ralf Maximus · « **Reply #107 on:** November 19, 2007, 02:06 PM »

Quote from: DonL on November 19, 2007, 08:33 AM

>>So why pursue this in a public forum? What are you hoping to accomplish?
I don't, man! Read the thread. It's not me that starts talking about DP, never ever.

Don, forgive me, but I still don't think you see my point.

I recognize that you didn't "started anything". It's good to see a software vendor pay attention to customers in such a visible way, provide helpful information and background reasoning on why the product is the way it is. I applaud you.

However, there comes a time in some threads where emotion creeps in, and then it's time to just stop. Your "thanks for the hate review" comment struck me as such a tipping point, with dialog beyond that leading to thinner and thinner ice. It doesn't matter who is "right" or who started it, it seems to me you've reached the level of diminishing returns on the whole "dual panel" discussion.

That was my point.

DonL · « **Reply #108 on:** November 19, 2007, 04:24 PM »

Quote from: Ralf Maximus on November 19, 2007, 02:06 PM

However, there comes a time in some threads where emotion creeps in, and then it's time to just stop. Your "thanks for the hate review" comment struck me as such a tipping point, with dialog beyond that leading to thinner and thinner ice. It doesn't matter who is "right" or who started it, it seems to me you've reached the level of diminishing returns on the whole "dual panel" discussion.

Okay, I give you that. The less enlighted part of me just could not resist to "thank for the hate review"...

wraith808 · « **Reply #109 on:** November 19, 2007, 06:17 PM »

I personally don't see 3 out of 5 stars as a 'hate review' either; I'd give it 3 (or perhaps 3-1/2... maaaaybe 4) stars out of 5 currently, and I don't hate the software. I just couldn't really recommend it at a level above that because of features that are must-haves for me to recommend that are not present. For file management, DP is one of those features that I require, otherwise, I'd stick with explorer- and tabs don't change that assessment. It's a very solid piece of software, that works very well. But it doesn't fit in my workflow currently as a file manager.

tomos · « **Reply #110 on:** November 19, 2007, 11:36 PM »

All this talk has finally inspired me to install...well, unzip

XYplorer

only getting a feel for it yet but gotta say it's lovely and light
with great and obvious (and subtle) attention to detail -

Sometimes the small details can be so nice - and there's so many really nice features here in the first couple of minutes..

looking forward to getting to know better

luc · « **Reply #111 on:** November 20, 2007, 01:03 AM »

Quote from: DonL on November 19, 2007, 08:33 AM

....So what Luc is saying is: "This apple has a severe problem: it does not taste like an orange."

No, that is not what I was writing. I did write: "There are many other file managers available which are more suitable for visually and mouse oriented users". I did not say the others are better in general. As it is also confirmed by several responses here, a dual pane mode is a non-negotiable requirement for quite a lot of people. Perhaps mentally more flexible people can do without; some of us will not. Nothing new. Some people are happy with apples only and some with oranges only - and some would prefer to have both.

ad-min · « **Reply #112 on:** November 20, 2007, 06:29 AM »

Quote from: tomos on November 19, 2007, 11:36 PM

Sometimes the small details can be so nice - and there's so many really nice features here in the first couple of minutes..

looking forward to getting to know better

Yes, the small details and the big advantages like: great usability, active development, fantastic user forum, no extra payment for dual install, portability, no changes in the registry, and and and...

A good place for new users to start is the Support Site (http://xyplorer.com/support.htm) with a lot of great sources of knowledge:the XY Tutorial, the wonderful XYwiki, the Cheat Sheets and - of course - the user forum.

ad-min · « **Reply #113 on:** November 20, 2007, 07:13 AM »

Quote from: luc on November 20, 2007, 01:03 AM

I did write: "There are many other file managers available which are more suitable for visually and mouse oriented users".

I think I am a very visually and mouse oriented user and I really have no problems with XYplorer. I do nearly all my file operations with the mouse and only use Keyboard Shortcuts when they are really useful.

But you are absolutely right, the first time with XYplorer is not an easy one. Before I installed XY I worked with other file managers like SpeedCommander, DirectoryOpus and TotalCommander for years. All of them are dual pane file managers and all of them are so much better than WindowsExplorer. So it was just natural that I developed a antipathy for single pane file managers.

The first time I started XY I automatically associated that it has to be a product of poor quality which would not excel WindowsExplorer. I didn't use XY for two weeks but then - I don't know why - I gave it another chance, read the Wiki, read the Tutorial and discovered so many interesting things. The support is the best one I ever saw and Don adds new features at a pace which is really impressive.

Personally I don't miss dual pane and I don't need it in my everyday work. If I really need to visually compare two folders I open a second instance of XY or use a specialized tool. But I can understand that a lot of users would prefer to work the same way they are used to.

Quote from: luc on November 20, 2007, 01:03 AM

Some people are happy with apples only and some with oranges only - and some would prefer to have both.

Yes, that's why I don't know if it is really a good idea to make the apple (XYplorer) look more like an orange. If I prefer DP there are so many great file managers out there but if I want a good single pane file manager there is only XYplorer. If Don can find a way to implement "both worlds" without sacrificing the things which make XY so special then all users (SP and DP fans) would be happy. But I think that's not an easy task...

luc · « **Reply #114 on:** November 20, 2007, 05:38 PM »

Actually, I believe I was wrong before - Most likely the majority of people would prefer to have both fruits.

The curious thing is, that so many people here are writing of philosophical or conceptual differences between SP and DP file managers; I do not buy it. What philosophy could it be (discussion and arguments are usually involved in philosophy)? I have not found an attempt at a rational argument for the exclusion of a DP option other than mysterious unspecified philosophy or dogma (breaking a program in an unspecified way ?,....). Perhaps there is an unspecified incredible value somewhere in just being different ?? - that would be comparatively rational.
This strangeness of the discussion makes the whole topic somewhat provocative.
On the other hand, many posts here have delivered real world arguments for the usefulness of DP (and apparently people in the XY forums have used external scripting tools to re-create a DP there).
Anyhow, looks like we can close this part of the debate soon.

Quote from: ad-min on November 20, 2007, 07:13 AM

Quote from: luc on November 20, 2007, 01:03 AM
Some people are happy with apples only and some with oranges only - and some would prefer to have both.

Yes, that's why I don't know if it is really a good idea to make the apple (XYplorer) look more like an orange. If I prefer DP there are so many great file managers out there but if I want a good single pane file manager there is only XYplorer. If Don can find a way to implement "both worlds" without sacrificing the things which make XY so special then all users (SP and DP fans) would be happy. But I think that's not an easy task...

boxstar · « **Reply #115 on:** November 20, 2007, 06:41 PM »

Quote from: luc on November 20, 2007, 05:38 PM

Anyhow, looks like we can close this part of the debate soon.

Oh, really? Do you have some insider information we all others don't have?

Come on, luc, just stop your whining and buy Directory Opus or some other DP clone. There are so much choices, where is your problem?

Or buy both fruits and make lemonade!

You don't seem to understand that DP is far more than just adding a second pane. The whole program is build around the SP approach...

f0dder · « **Reply #116 on:** November 20, 2007, 07:07 PM »

Getting hot, getting hotter...

Personally I prefer a file management tool that lets me switch between single- and dual-pane view, and has tabs. xplorer² does this perfectly (I used 2xExplorer, nagged for single-pane mode, dropped 2xExplorer, and was super happy a while later when xplorer^2 was released).

I'm very keyboard-oriented when doing file management, and x^2 has very good hotkeys for managing tabs and everything. Here's a shot showing how I have x^2 configured (notice, no mouse-friendly toolbars

), and why I think dual-pane and tabs is useful...

Note that this isn't meant to belittle xyplorer or hit you in the head or anything, just to give a perspective on why I think dual-pane and tabs are good, and wouldn't use a file manager that hadn't got those features.

[attachthumb=#]

luc · « **Reply #117 on:** November 20, 2007, 07:38 PM »

Just another example of the somewhat absurd nature of this "debate". One side attempts to provide arguments - the other contents "one just does not understand" ( again without providing any hints of what exactly could there be to understand anyhow? ). Perhaps, SP is just a "certain way of life"?; these posts make it look like a mysterious cult.

Quote from: boxstar on November 20, 2007, 06:41 PM

Quote from: luc on November 20, 2007, 05:38 PM
Anyhow, looks like we can close this part of the debate soon.
Oh, really? Do you have some insider information we all others don't have?

Come on, luc, just stop your whining and buy Directory Opus or some other DP clone. There are so much choices, where is your problem?

Or buy both fruits and make lemonade!

You don't seem to understand that DP is far more than just adding a second pane. The whole program is build around the SP approach...

nosh · « **Reply #118 on:** November 20, 2007, 08:14 PM »

I'm really happy with X2 too but one can't help but envy the XY users when one hears they have new builds to play with every few days. Argh!!

f0dder · « **Reply #119 on:** November 20, 2007, 08:18 PM »

Quote from: nosh on November 20, 2007, 08:14 PM

I'm really happy with X2 too but one can't help but envy the XY users when one hears they have new builds to play with every few days. Argh!!

I personally prefer somewhat longer inbetween builds, and have them stable (NOT saying that xyplorer isn't, don't have experience with it!) - now "in my older days", I don't suffer as much from versionitis as I used to

mwb1100 · « **Reply #120 on:** November 20, 2007, 08:42 PM »

Quote from: boxstar on November 20, 2007, 06:41 PM

Quote from: luc on November 20, 2007, 05:38 PM
Anyhow, looks like we can close this part of the debate soon.
Oh, really? Do you have some insider information we all others don't have?

Don't know if this is what luc was referring to, but DP is on Don's roadmap for XY. I don't know how soon this means Don will get around to it, though.

boxstar · « **Reply #121 on:** November 20, 2007, 08:44 PM »

Quote from: luc on November 20, 2007, 07:38 PM

One side [...] - the other [...]

You seem to have a somewhat black-white approach to the world. There are no two sides - we are all people who try to manage our files and we use different tools with different approaches.

To say "I don't like B, make it look more like A" is absurd.

Just buy A and everything is good.

Quote from: luc on November 20, 2007, 07:38 PM

Perhaps, SP is just a "certain way of life"?; these posts make it look like a mysterious cult.

Sorry, I have to dissapoint you, SP isn't "a certain way of life", it's only "a certain way of managing files". Tastes differ, my friend, and so do tools. This way everyone can be happy.

Quote from: luc on November 20, 2007, 07:38 PM

One side attempts to provide arguments [...]

Oh, and sorry again, I didn't realize that you tried to provide arguments...

nosh · « **Reply #122 on:** November 20, 2007, 08:54 PM »

I'm trying to fight versionitis and kinda winning off late but as far as X2 is concerned, it crashes on me a few times atleast every single day... generally when I close it, which is harmless. A few days back I was working with a huge number of files, really pushing the app and it did occasionally crash on me inbetween operations too. Stability is not exactly its forte. The fact that it's still around just shows how indispensable it's become.

tomos · « **Reply #123 on:** November 21, 2007, 10:58 AM »

from Gizmo's latest newsletter

Topic:- "Search Files Without Using a Desktop Search Utility"

A final option is to use the search feature built into some File Managers. Among the best of these is XYplorer [5].
XYplorer can search for both file names and file contents and has powerful search specification options, including the ability to limit the search to specific drives, folders, file types, creation dates, size, file attributes and more. Furthermore, the speed of the inbuilt search is simply amazing.

just BTW

nosh · « **Reply #124 on:** November 21, 2007, 02:10 PM »

Although there _are_ advantages to using specialized tools.

XYplorer
[attachimg=#]

FileLocator Pro
[attachimg=#]