Author Topic: Does anyone here use Bitcoins? (Read 854,854 times)

Renegade · « **Reply #525 on:** June 30, 2014, 02:05 PM »

Quote from: 40hz on June 30, 2014, 01:48 PM

Actually, I'm amazed governments weren't in on this from day one. What an ideal way to fund covert activities and black ops. Or handle ~~bribes~~ campaign contributions. They've turned a blind eye toward (or at the very least tolerated) numbered Swiss bank accounts, numerous Istituto per le Opere di Religione shenanigans, and offshore banks for that very reason. So much easier to transact with than blood diamonds too.

Maybe these "democratic" governments need to rethink their position on crypto-currencies. Ya think?

HAHAHAHAHA~!

Nice!

I WISH that they would switch over to Bitcoin. But, that's a pipe dream.

There's a serious problem with governments using Bitcoin.

NOTE: Please be aware that I am NOT saying "crypto-currency" here.

Transactions are all recorded on the blockchain. This is VERY dangerous for a government as it could lead to transparency advocates getting their way... Can we spell D-I-S-A-S-T-E-R?!?!?! It would severely limit their ability to piss away people's money and enrich their buddies. Transparency would be death to government. We already know just how hard FOIA requests are...

Can you imagine what would happen if government spending were open to the public?!?

BUT!!!

For covert operations, such as how the CIA is one of the biggest drug dealers on the planet, it would be EXCELLENT! All their darkest desires could be fulfilled and they could get away with even more murder than they do right now.

tl;dr - Bitcoin could kill legitimate government, but could be a wonderful boon to the covert government.

(NOTE: I am ignoring some issues purposefully because I'm lazy.)

wraith808 · « **Reply #526 on:** June 30, 2014, 02:34 PM »

Quote from: 40hz on June 30, 2014, 01:48 PM

Actually, I'm amazed governments weren't in on this from day one. What an ideal way to fund covert activities and black ops. Or handle ~~bribes~~ campaign contributions. They've turned a blind eye toward (or at the very least tolerated) numbered Swiss bank accounts, numerous Istituto per le Opere di Religione shenanigans, and offshore banks for that very reason. So much easier to transact with than blood diamonds too.

Maybe these "democratic" governments need to rethink their position on crypto-currencies. Ya think?

Swiss bank accounts, for all of the perception that they are inviolable, are not. There's no humans involved in bitcoin security on transactions, so they are.

Note that any failures on bitcoin have been human related for all of the hubbub otherwise.

Renegade · « **Reply #527 on:** July 01, 2014, 04:06 AM »

Ahem... just in case anyone still doesn't understand the need for Bitcoin...

https://protonmail.ch/blog/paypal-freezes-protonmail-campaign-funds/

Quote

Paypal Freezes ProtonMail Campaign Funds

July 1, 2014 Andy Yen News & Articles
This morning, we received an email and telephone call from PayPal notifying us that our account has been restricted pending further review. At this time, it is not possible for ProtonMail to receive or send funds through PayPal. No attempt was made by PayPal to contact us before freezing our account, and no notice was given.

2014-06-30_202409

Like many others, we have all heard the PayPal horror stories, but didn’t actually think it would happen to us on our campaign since PayPal promised, very recently, to improve their policies. Unfortunately, it seems those were hollow promises as ProtonMail is now the latest in a long string of crowdfunding campaigns to be hit with account freezes. (For examples, just look here, here, and here).

While the $275,000 ProtonMail has raised in the past 2 weeks is a large amount, it pales in comparison to many other crowdfunding campaigns that have raised sums in excess of $1,000,000 so we can’t help but wonder why ProtonMail was singled out. When we pressed the PayPal representative on the phone for further details, he questioned whether ProtonMail is legal and if we have government approval to encrypt emails. We are not sure which government PayPal is referring to, but even the 4th Amendment of the US constitution guarantees:

“The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures….”

It seems PayPal is trying to come up with ANY excuse they can to prevent us from receiving funds.

2014-06-30_205105

As a result, we have disabled PayPal as a payment option on our campaign page, but it is still possible contribute with credit card and Bitcoin. Please help us get the word out there as by bringing attention to this issue, we may be able to convince PayPal to do the right thing. And if anybody from PayPal is listening, we’ve emailed and called today, please get in touch with us as soon as possible.

40hz · « **Reply #528 on:** July 01, 2014, 11:13 AM »

Quote from: Renegade on July 01, 2014, 04:06 AM

Ahem... just in case anyone still doesn't understand the need for Bitcoin...

All well and good.

But what happens when governments do a Mt. Gox on the rest of the Bitcoin exchanges?

Who do the exchanges call for help then? The vast and well-organized libertarian-anarcho community? $:-\$

Yeah, that oughta work...just look how much Occupy accomplished. (Nice of them all to so completely ID themselves to The Powers That Be in the process too. I'm sure the folks who maintain the "roundup the usual" list for the cops are grateful for their assistance.)

Bitcoin doesn't continue in spite of government. It continues at the sufferance of governments, which are still examining Bitcoin for ways it can be turned to their advantage. If it proves useful, they'll co-opt it. If not (and it becomes a threat) they'll snuff it without so much as breaking a sweat.

Wish it were otherwise. But as long as you're still running on their fiber, wires, airwaves, and backbone - you're their pooch.

Renegade · « **Reply #529 on:** July 01, 2014, 02:24 PM »

Quote from: 40hz on July 01, 2014, 11:13 AM

But what happens when governments do a Mt. Gox on the rest of the Bitcoin exchanges?

That's a very odd thing to say. Are you sure you know what happened at Mt. Gox? It was pretty simple - extremely bad management. It had nothing to do with government.

Quote from: 40hz on July 01, 2014, 11:13 AM

Who do the exchanges call for help then? The vast and well-organized libertarian-anarcho community? $:-\$

Oh... right... TARP. You mean like how other corporations, e.g. Bank of America, General Motors, JPMorgan Chase, Wells Fargo, Goldman Sachs, Chrysler, etc., completely fail and then go running to the government for money to bail out their failed businesses!

Somehow I can't see people actually wanting to bail out failed businesses. Err... I mean *normal* people. Not criminal gangs. You know what I mean!

Quote from: 40hz on July 01, 2014, 11:13 AM

Bitcoin doesn't continue in spite of government. It continues at the sufferance of governments, which are still examining Bitcoin for ways it can be turned to their advantage. If it proves useful, they'll co-opt it. If not (and it becomes a threat) they'll snuff it without so much as breaking a sweat.

I'd like to highlight one thing you said there:

Quote from: 40hz on July 01, 2014, 11:13 AM

It continues at the sufferance of governments

What is the mentality behind affording that "sufferance"?

You're describing a vain, vindictive, evil, sinister, capricious entity. That people are actually ok with this is extraordinarily disturbing.

If it doesn't like something, then whatever that is... there's a good chance that it's good for you.

That you see the nature of the beast, and are then so skeptical of something that stands an excellent chance of diminishing that beast... that just always amazes me.

Quote from: 40hz on July 01, 2014, 11:13 AM

Wish it were otherwise. But as long as you're still running on their fiber, wires, airwaves, and backbone - you're their pooch.

While I love to play around with the term "godvernment", they're not actually all-powerful. They do have limits.

I think Bitcoin is too big now for them to squish so easily. There are congressmen accepting BTC. It's spreading a lot faster now.

Also, the various "godvernments" around the world aren't exactly all that great at working together, and with Bitcoin being global, their cooperation is needed.

I'm still very optimistic.

But, there are bigger worries out there for currencies right now. The global currency war is in full swing and getting nastier all the time. Bitcoin doesn't factor in there though.

Renegade · « **Reply #530 on:** July 01, 2014, 03:24 PM »

Another addition - Newegg:

https://twitter.com/newegg/status/483943309564735489

http://www.newegg.com/bitcoin?cm_mmc=SNC-Twitter-_-Bitcoin-_-NA-_-NA

40hz · « **Reply #531 on:** July 01, 2014, 03:54 PM »

Quote from: Renegade on July 01, 2014, 03:24 PM

Another addition - Newegg:

https://twitter.com/newegg/status/483943309564735489

:'(http://www.newegg.com/bitcoin?cm_mmc=SNC-Twitter-_-Bitcoin-_-NA-_-NA

I think there's more "geek marketing" lurking behind that "decision" than anything else.

Especially in retail where the correct answer to the question: "Which methods of payment should we accept?" is: "ALL of them."

Renegade · « **Reply #532 on:** July 01, 2014, 04:15 PM »

Quote from: 40hz on July 01, 2014, 03:54 PM

I think there's more "geek marketing" lurking behind that "decision" than anything else.

You're probably very right there!

But if you look at Overstock, they have had great success with Bitcoin. The bandwagon is rolling by, and companies are jumping on.

40hz · « **Reply #533 on:** July 01, 2014, 04:28 PM »

Quote from: Renegade on July 01, 2014, 04:15 PM

The bandwagon is rolling by, and companies are jumping on. :Thmbsup

Any time there's money visible on the street, companies will jump on the bandwagon.

They'll roll with Bitcoin for all it's worth. But the minute there's a problem, they'll kick it to the curb. Don't forget, if your Bitcoin payment goes south, you're still on the hook for the money you owe. So there's little if any risk to a company that accepts Bitcoin, as long as it remains legal to do so.

Like plastic, they'll just call the customer and say "I'm sorry, but your MasterCard declined the purchase. Is there another form of payment you'd prefer to use instead?"

No skin off their noses. Brown or otherwise.

40hz · « **Reply #534 on:** July 01, 2014, 05:02 PM »

Quote from: Renegade on July 01, 2014, 02:24 PM

That you see the nature of the beast, and are then so skeptical of something that stands an excellent chance of diminishing that beast... that just always amazes me.

Chalk it up to more direct personal experience on my part - and the fact I lack the romantic perspective on all this that you seem to have.

You see colossal forces of good and evil playing out some cosmic struggle.

I see a species whose tribal survival instincts have not transitioned effectively or efficiently into the artificial world it's created for itself.

I don't see cosmic "good vs evil" at play here. I see stupidity, and ignorance, and wilful disregard of hard data and logic, and above all: FEAR! Fear of getting hurt. Fear of change. Fear of living in want. Fear of the unknown. Which sometimes leads to a will to power. Circular logic. Magical thinking. Pointless greed and avarice. A fascination with cruelty and suffering - often disguised as "humor" and "entertainment. Childish fascination with spectacle. And...the list goes on...

There's no BEAST.

There's no EVIL MASTER PLAN.

There's really nothing but us behaving badly towards each other. More often than not for no reason other than habit - and because "We can!"

Government isn't this big wicked extra dimensional creature that we're fighting a religious war of survival against. It's just a bunch of us moving as a group, and sometimes behaving cruelly and stupidly.

So yes, I agree that governments aren't all powerful. However, I'd also add that the sooner we strip the mythic persona and "purple prose" away from all this and deal with government in terms of what it really is (i.e. just another bunch of people), the better.

-----

To the point of "diminishing that beast" all I can say is most people are doing it wrong. Governments are designed to slow or eliminate sudden societal change. And they're engineered to deal with direct frontal assault and confrontation. The only time a direct confrontation will work is if 90% (or better) of the general population is 100% behind the move. If not, it peters out and fails. And usually makes it much harder for the next group that attempts it. Because, while many government are adept at not learning from experience, the one type of experience they do learn from is a direct attack made against it.

Unfortunately, most "revolutionary" thinking and movements are elitist in nature. Agree with those who lead them - or be considered stupid and assigned to the "sheeple" category for all eternity. Most of the "calls for change" I hear are extremely dismissive of the general public. Most of the people I hear discussing "new economics" or other contrarian ideas seem far more intent on proving (to themselves) that they're smarter than most other people than gaining support. Which is a far cry from proving their thesis - or getting large numbers of people to buy into their position.

Not a good way to build that 90% backing I mentioned earlier.

But...I've seen this before. Maybe this time around it'll be different. But I seriously doubt it.

Renegade · « **Reply #535 on:** July 01, 2014, 05:08 PM »

Quote from: 40hz on July 01, 2014, 04:28 PM

Brown or otherwise.

Speaking of brown, get ready to shit your pants.

http://www.gulf-times.com/eco.-bus.%20news/256/details/398622/kuwait-finance-firm-suggests-trading-oil-in-bitcoins

Quote

Kuwait finance firm suggests trading oil in bitcoins

Oil producing countries, particularly in the GCC, could benefit if they would use bitcoin in oil trading, instead of dollars, Markaz’ research department argues.

There have been a number of proposals in the past to trade oil and gas in another currency than the US dollar, for political as well as for monetary reasons. Some OPEC member states not particularly friendly to the US, whenever there was a crisis of some sort, have been making repeated noise about denominating their price for hydrocarbons in another than the US currency, but have never quite managed to agree on an alternative.

The most active countries today that pursue a no-dollars-for-oil policy are Iran, which encourages all trading partners to pay for oil in a currency other than the US dollar, and Russia, whose flagship company Gazprom, the largest extractor of natural gas in the world, recently told oil importers from China and Japan that they should pay their bills not with greenbacks, but preferably with yen, yuan or even ruble.

But a new report (Disruptive Technology: Bitcoins, Currency Reinvented?) recently issued by Kuwait-based investment banking and asset management firm Kuwait Financial Centre, also known as Markaz, even goes a step further: Oil producing countries, particularly in the GCC, could benefit if they would use bitcoin in oil trading, Markaz’ research department argues.

This comes a bit as a surprise, since bitcoin as an unregulated and — as of now — highly volatile cryptocurrency, has no manifestation other than bits and bytes stored somewhere in the virtual space and seems not to be the most reliable means of trade for the world’s most sought-after commodity. The idea is not new, though: There has been an Internet debate about one year ago on what would happen if the Opec would adopt bitcoin as transaction currency. The outcome: Firstly, the US would certainly not sit and watch the dollar losing its petrocurrency status and would do whatever needs to be done to defend the greenback; secondly, China wouldn’t allow it as it wants the yuan to be a petrocurrency as well; thirdly, in the moment oil and gas gets priced in bitcoins, it would be exposed to the cryptocurrency’s extreme volatility with massive consequences and fiscal uncertainties for petroleum-exporting countries. Speculators had a wide and anonymous field to play.

So what did Markaz actually mean? They basically said that using bitcoins would save payment transaction costs for oil exporting countries, because sending and receiving bitcoins of any denomination is just a matter of seconds and costs next to nothing. For the clearance of oil payments through conventional banks, exporting countries currently have to wait one to three days and pay the usual banking fees.

But just for saving some transaction time and costs, would the GCC, where the oil industry currently accounts for 90% of exports and 75% of government revenue, as per Markaz’ own research, really be wise to channel these massive money flows through bitcoin clearing houses, which are, as per their nature, unregulated, work with open source codes and can get — at recent history shows — easily hacked and digitally robbed? This is open for debate.

Before any barrel will ever be paid for in bitcoins, it will be the Chinese yuan that has taken on the role as the dollar’s challenger. China already pays Russia’s and Iran’s oil in yuan and is busy setting up yuan clearing houses in major financial centres all over the world to facilitate the global money flow of its currency. This is, for now, probably a much better solution until the world knows what will rally happen to bitcoin.

I'll give you some time to go clean out your shorts.

For everyone else who might be bored of scrolling, here's http://www.doodie.com/

Back?

That it has even been mentioned by that kind of organisation is almost unthinkable.

I've joked about that with people, but never seriously thinking that it would ever happen. Hopeful? Yes. Serious? No.

Yeah... I know... it's not going to happen. But... Those people have been thinking about it.

That's a big deal.

It's like Mother Theresa thinking about whether or not she wants to go to an S&M dungeon party and be a slave or dominatrix.

Stoic Joker · « **Reply #536 on:** July 01, 2014, 05:13 PM »

Interesting (Ren vs. 40), I actually fall somewhere between these two schools of thought..

Who else wants popcorn??

-------------------------------------

Crap, Ren got ahead of me...I was referring to 40hz's post above.

40hz · « **Reply #537 on:** July 01, 2014, 05:26 PM »

Quote from: Renegade on July 01, 2014, 02:24 PM

Quote from: 40hz on July 01, 2014, 11:13 AM
But what happens when governments do a Mt. Gox on the rest of the Bitcoin exchanges?

That's a very odd thing to say. Are you sure you know what happened at Mt. Gox? It was pretty simple - extremely bad management. It had nothing to do with government.

In the US at least, Bitcoin exchanges are subject to FinCEN regulation.

So they're not the big "revolutionary agorist" monetary system some people like to think they are.

Fail to obey said regulations and follow "suggested" guidelines and you risk having your assets seized.

Even worse, if there's "probable cause" (that magical phrase that makes enforcement action possible in advance of proof of wrongdoing) for a government to think what you're doing is illegal - you're offline. And all that's ultimately required is a signature on an order from a compliant judge to shut you down completely until the matter gets "resolved."

So again, what is stopping any government from doing the same? All you need to do is convince a judge some Bitcoin exchange needs to be seized and it will happen. And with these crazy international trade agreements trumping local law, the alleged crime doesn't even have to be local in the jurisdiction the enforcement occurs in.

No different than Swiss accounts. Their vaunted "secrecy" is crackable with a warrant too.

Mt. Gox, AFAIK was shut down because DHS filed for "probable cause" that Mt. Gox was transferring money illegally.

40hz · « **Reply #538 on:** July 01, 2014, 05:28 PM »

Quote from: Stoic Joker on July 01, 2014, 05:13 PM

Interesting (Ren vs. 40), I actually fall somewhere between these two schools of thought..

Who else wants popcorn??

-------------------------------------

Crap, Ren got ahead of me...I was referring to 40hz's post above.

Yeah? well..the only reason this ping-pong match is going on is because it's been a slow day. And I don't feel like learning anything technical right now.

barney · « **Reply #539 on:** July 01, 2014, 06:38 PM »

Quote from: Renegade on July 01, 2014, 02:24 PM

That's a very odd thing to say. Are you sure you know what happened at Mt. Gox? It was pretty simple - extremely bad management.

Ya might wanna rethink that statement - aren't government and extremely bad management pretty much synonymous

?

Renegade · « **Reply #540 on:** July 01, 2014, 06:39 PM »

@40hz - We're not going to see eye-to-eye on a lot of these things.

Quote from: 40hz on July 01, 2014, 05:26 PM

Mt. Gox, AFAIK was shut down because DHS filed for "probable cause" that Mt. Gox was transferring money illegally.

Your information is bad.

I do understand more about what you mean about Discordianism from one of your posts above.

I'm going to drop it there. Our world views are simply far too different for this conversation to go anywhere.

40hz · « **Reply #541 on:** July 01, 2014, 07:14 PM »

^I'm going off the writeup on ArsTechnica so if I'm misinformed I guess I'm in good company at least.

Also sorry if you don't want to chat with me any more about this.

I get that same response from a lot of people I know - although most of them seem to be self-professed "conservatives - and damn proud of it" types.

Guess the futher out on the distribution curve things get, the more they start acting and sounding the same.

Whoulda thunk?

Renegade · « **Reply #542 on:** July 02, 2014, 03:58 AM »

Quote from: 40hz on July 01, 2014, 07:14 PM

Also sorry if you don't want to chat with me any more about this.

I get that same response from a lot of people I know - although most of them seem to be self-professed "conservatives - and damn proud of it" types.

Guess the futher out on the distribution curve things get, the more they start acting and sounding the same.

Whoulda thunk?

That's not it. (And I certainly wouldn't call myself "conservative".)

It's stuff like this:

Quote from: 40hz on July 01, 2014, 05:02 PM

There's really nothing but us behaving badly towards each other. More often than not for no reason other than habit - and because "We can!"

It's "Lord of the Flies"-ish and seems to be deeply pessimistic. "People are inherently bad/evil, and always will be." We can always find something horrible, but we are also immersed in a lot of good that we all too often become blind to.

An excellent example of people being decent human beings is from a few months ago when the war-mongers were screaming to invade Syria, but people everywhere screamed out their opposition, and the death dealers were sent back to their plotting rooms in frustration. It might not happen very often, and probably doesn't happen nearly enough, but TPTB still need enough approval or complacency to "behave badly". Your average person on the street simply doesn't behave badly like that. The vast majority of people are well-intentioned.

So, I'm just not sure that we'll do anything more than come back with different "buts" and always miss the underlying premises that are way off topic here.

40hz · « **Reply #543 on:** July 02, 2014, 05:47 AM »

By "us" I simply meant "people" in the collective sense.

Not all people. Just "people."

And the jury is out with regard to intrinsic "human nature" AFAIC.

In my case, I don't think in terms like "intrinsic nature." Mainly because I don' t know what "intrinsic" means in that context. I do, however, see behavioral tendencies that are most likely conditioned - although the jury is still out on the "conditioned" part too. And people do what they do.

I don't know why you'd characterize that as being pessimistic. I'd consider it more a behaviorist viewpoint than anything else. But so be it.

And you're right. This is all somewhat OT anyway..

barney · « **Reply #544 on:** July 02, 2014, 06:02 AM »

Quote from: Renegade on July 02, 2014, 03:58 AM

The vast majority of people are well-intentioned.

But mostly inactive.

Quote from: 40hz on July 02, 2014, 05:47 AM

This is all somewhat OT anyway

Seems to be begging the question. After all, this thread - topic statement notwithstanding - is about folk accepting/following new things/trends.

At any rate, the back-and-forth tween the two (2) of you is certainly entertaining, thought-provoking, and creative. The thought processes as displayed/evinced certainly require a bit of cogitation from the rest of us.

Stoic Joker · « **Reply #545 on:** July 02, 2014, 11:51 AM »

Quote from: barney on July 02, 2014, 06:02 AM

Quote from: Renegade on July 02, 2014, 03:58 AM
The vast majority of people are well-intentioned.
But mostly inactive.

Quite true. However ironically - especially for TPTB - frequently the best thing 'people' can do is stay the hell out of it.

Quote from: barney on July 02, 2014, 06:02 AM

Quote from: 40hz on July 02, 2014, 05:47 AM
This is all somewhat OT anyway
Seems to be begging the question. After all, this thread - topic statement notwithstanding - is about folk accepting/following new things/trends.

At any rate, the back-and-forth tween the two (2) of you is certainly entertaining, thought-provoking, and creative. The thought processes as displayed/evinced certainly require a bit of cogitation from the rest of us.

+1,000 - Screw the topic, let'em go ... Watching these two debate human nature (etc..) is Greek mythology level epic!

Renegade · « **Reply #546 on:** July 05, 2014, 05:00 AM »

Decentralised exchange:

http://blackhalo.info/

Things are moving pretty fast now. The level of innovation and the speed of technology increase are accelerating.

barney · « **Reply #547 on:** July 05, 2014, 06:11 AM »

Quote from: Renegade on July 05, 2014, 05:00 AM

Decentralised exchange:

http://blackhalo.info/

Things are moving pretty fast now. The level of innovation and the speed of technology increase are accelerating.

And that shows me what? No evident links, no - well, minimal - explanation. In fact, not much at all other than a page w/o true purpose. Or is it a placeholder while the site is being established? Even that, no explanation beyond intuition that I do not possess at the moment.

Renegade · « **Reply #548 on:** July 05, 2014, 09:44 AM »

Quote from: barney on July 05, 2014, 06:11 AM

And that shows me what? No evident links, no - well, minimal - explanation. In fact, not much at all other than a page w/o true purpose. Or is it a placeholder while the site is being established? Even that, no explanation beyond intuition that I do not possess at the moment.

Scroll down. It's there.

x16wda · « **Reply #549 on:** July 05, 2014, 12:59 PM »

But I curse people who attach useless audio to web pages.