Author Topic: Superboyac is throwing in the towel: I'm going to transition to Linux (Read 134,816 times)

cranioscopical · « **Reply #25 on:** March 01, 2012, 01:11 AM »

Quote from: superboyac on February 29, 2012, 10:04 PM

some schizo reactions

Woof!

Stoic Joker · « **Reply #26 on:** March 01, 2012, 01:22 AM »

Quote from: 40hz on March 01, 2012, 12:41 AM

Because if you don't you'll eventually end up morphing into a BOFH!!!!!

I fear it's far to late for me...

Just this afternoon I set the PFY about the task of breaking out the testing department into an isolated subnet. This is to avoid having customer and test machines creating (ghost entries) noise in the new printer tracking software.

There are two racks of ~50 printers each with a table containing two computers. One for the USB printers, and one for the network printers.

The PFY was to statically assign addresses in the .4 network, leaving the rest of the office on the .5 network ... But was confused as to how to get back and forth between them during the configuration. The network test machine was already on the .4 network, which meant he couldn't get to the .5 network to pull the machines over via the EWS (Embedded Web Server) for easy access.

So he asked me what to do...

I gave him several options like multi-homing, super-netting, adding a static route, and etc. until his eyes crossed (tehehe). ...Then he asked the right question ... What's the easiest way to do it?

I barely managed to contain myself long enough to say, use the other machine next to you that's still on the .5 network to push them over... before erupting into maniacal laughter. The PFY rolled his eyes, threw his hands in the air, and gave me the finger. He's a good kid.

40hz · « **Reply #27 on:** March 01, 2012, 01:39 AM »

Quote from: Stoic Joker on March 01, 2012, 01:22 AM

Quote from: 40hz on March 01, 2012, 12:41 AM
Because if you don't you'll eventually end up morphing into a BOFH!!!!!

I fear it's far to late for me...
.
.
.
The PFY rolled his eyes, threw his hands in the air, and gave me the finger. He's a good kid.

Sounds like a good one. And apparently somebody taught him the recognition sign of the Master 32nd Degree Sysadmin - so he's cool by me!

Renegade · « **Reply #28 on:** March 01, 2012, 07:21 AM »

Watching this thread with great interest...

My main problem is how to maintain complete MS Office compatibility, so I need to check Libre Office. Once I've solved that, I really have no truly compelling reasons to stay on Windows, though I will need Windows for quite some time no matter what.

Carol Haynes · « **Reply #29 on:** March 01, 2012, 08:26 AM »

Interesting new thread. Over the years I have tried Corel Linux (ended badly), Mandrake, SuSe, Fedora and Mint and have always retreated fairly rapidly because of hardware/driver issues.

I haven't dabbled now for a good few years so I would be really interested to know how you get on with things like video, sound and printer support - in particular printer support, esp. as many printers are now network ready and often all in one.

In particular I really like Canon printers and they just don't do Linux - in the past I had very poor experiences trying to get any printer working beyond getting a sheet of poorly presented text (usually the printing was much blacker and thicker than printing from official drivers and almost never positioned consistently on the paper. I suppose it is what comes of using generic/similar model emulator drivers. Now that many manufacturers basically produce drivers from a building block approach (and so nothing is terribly bespoke any more) I a curious to know if Linux has managed to get better support.

PS a good non-committal starting point is using VMWare or Virtual box - at least they have a very common 'hardware' base that shouldn't be difficult to set up.

panzer · « **Reply #30 on:** March 01, 2012, 09:12 AM »

Useful Linux Distros reviews:
http://www.dedoimedo.com/computer_software.html#linux

http://floyd-linux.pappapc.com/

mahesh2k · « **Reply #31 on:** March 01, 2012, 10:19 AM »

Driver support in debian world is pretty good in my opinion. I never thought that the dial-up option in ubuntu were so detailed that they even had more than 10 local telecom providers in my country. This was in old version 10.04, so you can guess how much improvement 11.10 has so far.

I had no issues connecting Sony cedar to ubuntu 10.04 and then connecting to the internet. Old version of ubuntu 10.04 also took the Nvidia drivers, HP drivers and few other drivers from the repository. (Model tested - HP DV2500T, 2009 make). I never had driver issue for 3G devices, Phones and monitor with ubuntu. I have not checked printers, scanners and other devices with ubuntu though, so that part is still yet to explore. All I can say, other than lack of specific applications, there are not many areas where linux lacks compared to windows or apple. This is the reason I prefer debian distros, because vendors or hackers are making drivers and patches quickly compared to any other distro. Just to let you guys know you can use Sakis3g for connecting any linux distro with 3G dongles and phones.

40hz · « **Reply #32 on:** March 01, 2012, 12:46 PM »

Quote from: Carol Haynes on March 01, 2012, 08:26 AM

I haven't dabbled now for a good few years so I would be really interested to know how you get on with things like video, sound and printer support - in particular printer support, esp. as many printers are now network ready and often all in one.

Most driver hassles are a thing of the past with the newer distros. I haven't encountered any serious issues getting most printers (or anything else really) to work under Linux for a few years now. True there are a few multi-device office all-in-ones that you can still get a headache over. But they're the same flaky models that were also a royal pain in ass to work with under Windows, so no difference there.

I've actually resurrected a few mothballed Windows-based devices that won't work with Win7 by hooking them up to Linux boxes. One nice thing about Linux. Once a driver is worked out, it stays available in the distro repositories pretty much forever. So if something ever does work under Linux, it will almost always continue to work until it breaks - or you can no longer get ink cartridges for it.

Innuendo · « **Reply #33 on:** March 01, 2012, 04:07 PM »

Superboyac, I'm glad you are willing to step out of your comfort zone and try a new OS I advise you to be careful what situation you are putting yourself in. Windows has its problems, true, but Linux has its own share as well. Don't jump in expecting an easy time of it, either. Sure, things are a lot easier than they were even five years ago and there are some excellent distros out there, a lot of the problems you run into you will have to fix yourself. If you have any problem on Windows usually a quick Google search will find a blog or forum post from a Microsoft MVP laying out the steps needed to get things back on track. With Linux, while there are a lot of people out there who will be willing to help, there's unfortunately an 'ugly' segment of the population who parrot "RTFM!" and berate newbies till they leave their forums. The numbers in that 'ugly' portion of the Linux population seem to be dwindling, though, thank goodness.

Your first step is going to be to find the distro that's right for you. Everyone's got their favorites & everyone will gladly evangelize their top pick(s), but the truth of the matter is that a distro is like a pair of shoes. You have to find the one that fits you the best & is the most comfortable for you to roam around in. This step is very important, if not one of the most important decisions you'll make while in the land of Linux. Which one you choose could easily either bring you bliss or misery so choose wisely. Unfortunately, you have to make this huge decision while your knowledge is the weakest so lots of research will make things easier for you down the road.

As for software, you are (unfortunately) using two of the 800 lb. gorillas of the Windows world. The Bat! and Directory Opus do not have anything as powerful on Linux in their respective categories. The fact that the devs of these programs get barraged with requests to port them to Linux (and Mac!) attest to their power and desirability. You'll find Linux equivalents that will do a lot of what they do. You may even get lucky and find one that does most of what they do, but they stand alone. Total Commander is the only match for Directory Opus & it's Windows only as well, although lots of people report success using TC in Wine. Directory Opus, however, is too tightly integrated into the Windows framework so no such option exists for it.

While we're on the subject of software, we may as well talk about compiling. A lot of Linux software authors don't compile for every distro out there. You may be looking at a command prompt armed with source code if you are wanting to run certain programs on your distro. Are you up for that?

Linux is definitely most suited for those with a 'gearhead' mentality, those who want power & customizability and aren't afraid to get their hands dirty in order to access it. If you are more of a set it and forget it type person (the click one button or run a wizard) you may do well to stick with Windows or check into OS X.

Your OP stresses limits due to copyright. Just because the Linux guys are doing it for free doesn't mean they won't get their butts sued off as well if they violate copyright. They are limited by copyright just like the for-pay OSes are. The law is the law.

Linux can be a rich, rewarding experience, but like most things it'll only give you back what you put into it so if you are wanting an OS that just fades into the background and let's you do what you want to do be prepared to learn a LOT so you have the knowledge required to achieve that. This will not be the "drop in a DVD, click next, click next, click next, click done" Windows installation experience.

Either way, we'll be here with you every step of the way...be it to celebrate your victory over Linux as you declare your command line mastery...or...be it to cheer you on as you tie your PC's cables to your back bumper and drive down the street.

superboyac · « **Reply #34 on:** March 01, 2012, 05:56 PM »

Thanks, Innuendo. yeah, I'm looking forward to this...I've wanted to play with Linux for a while now, but was too scared or something.

The copyright stuff, that's not really a directly related issue. That was me talking to myself. I'm trying to take a stand on some of the political issues that I'm concerned about isntead of just being passive about it, which has been my usual response. What I meant by that was that I've noticed that software development has been hindered by the politics taking place now with computer stuff, namely copyright. All this cloud development...the fact that most small shareware developers can't sustain a living anymore...much less demand for nifty windows tools as opposed to mobile apps, etc. All that stuff. I'm also tired of giving money to faceless companies because they just take a lot of it, and make it very difficult to establish a personal relationship, which I prefer.

I'm even changing the way I dress...another lame attempt at activism for me. I'm transitioning my wardrobe away from my Costco and Macy's dress cloths and replacing it with handmade tweed suits made in England. I am directly giving money to the lady who is hand-tailoring the clothes. It costs more, but it lasts forever, is amazing quality, is custom fitted, and I only need about 3-5 of them. It takes more money and more effort on my end, but it feels better. If anyone is interested, I can't recommend them enough:
http://www.tweed-jacket.com/

And it really isn't as expensive as it initially sounds. A cheap suit at Macy's will be about $200, and you can get a dynamite 3-piece for about $500. No middle men. So I'm trying to do more things like this.

That's what the copyright thing is all about.

mahesh2k · « **Reply #35 on:** March 01, 2012, 05:57 PM »

Quote

While we're on the subject of software, we may as well talk about compiling. A lot of Linux software authors don't compile for every distro out there. You may be looking at a command prompt armed with source code if you are wanting to run certain programs on your distro. Are you up for that?

Example?

Quote

This will not be the "drop in a DVD, click next, click next, click next, click done" Windows installation experience.

Almost every linux distro has friendly installer these days. It was started long back in the days of live CD. I find linux installers more easy compared to windows one. I get to fix the boot too.

superboyac · « **Reply #36 on:** March 01, 2012, 06:00 PM »

I have a laptop running Windows 7. Can I put Mint on it as a dual boot easily? I'm timid because I had to spend hours getting the Windows 7 and drivers working properly on it, and I don't want to ruin it and have to do it again.

highend01 · « **Reply #37 on:** March 01, 2012, 06:07 PM »

Quote

Can I put Mint on it as a dual boot easily?

At least you can try. Nobody knows if something will go terrible wrong

It's boot manager (grub) will (most likely) find your Win 7 boot record and include it in it's own. Make an image of you current installation before you go dualbooting

40hz · « **Reply #38 on:** March 01, 2012, 06:49 PM »

Quote from: superboyac on March 01, 2012, 06:00 PM

Can I put Mint on it as a dual boot easily?

Can't be that difficult. I'm doing it.

More seriously, the Mint installer is Windows 7 aware. Just select the "alongside Windows" option and Bob's your uncle. See below:

[attachthumb=#]

In my case, I just threw in a spare 250Gb hard drive. But it will also detect unallocated space on your existing drives and can use that too. Installing Mint is almost too easy. "It's butterscoth baby! Pure butterscotch."

Keeps the Windows bootloader too. You won't even see GRUB until you tell it to boot into Linux.

mahesh2k · « **Reply #39 on:** March 01, 2012, 07:29 PM »

I think it's better to run under virtual machine/vmware/vbox for now. You want to experiment so....

superboyac · « **Reply #40 on:** March 01, 2012, 08:43 PM »

Quote from: 40hz on March 01, 2012, 06:49 PM

Quote from: superboyac on March 01, 2012, 06:00 PM
Can I put Mint on it as a dual boot easily?

Can't be that difficult. I'm doing it.

More seriously, the Mint installer is Windows 7 aware. Just select the "alongside Windows" option and Bob's your uncle. See below:
(see attachment in previous post)
In my case, I just threw in a spare 250Gb hard drive. But it will also detect unallocated space on your existing drives and can use that too. Installing Mint is almost too easy. "It's butterscoth baby! Pure butterscotch."

Keeps the Windows bootloader too. You won't even see GRUB until you tell it to boot into Linux.

Well then! This might be the first install, if the VM doesn't get there first.

Innuendo · « **Reply #41 on:** March 01, 2012, 09:16 PM »

Quote from: mahesh2k on March 01, 2012, 05:57 PM

Example?

Gladly....from the Panda3D manual:

http://www.panda3d.org/manual/index.php/Installing_Panda3D_in_Linux

Quote

The easiest way to install panda is to use the RPM or DEB packages. This is only possible if your version of Linux is one of the provided versions of Linux. If not, you will need to compile from source. If there is an installer available, download and install the RPM or DEB appropriate to your version of Linux.

That's just one example. I've seen similar regarding lots of other programs.

Full disclosure: I don't run Linux myself. The huge push in 2000 or so to put Linux on the desktop only yielded Linux running my router & my NAS in my house.

MilesAhead · « **Reply #42 on:** March 01, 2012, 09:20 PM »

Quote from: superboyac on February 29, 2012, 09:44 PM

If I'm being honest, my big fear with Linux is the scripting. I'm really not that interested in learning scripting because it's fun or it will help me grow as a person. I want to get things done as easily as possible. i think 40hz knows that about me, that's why he is recommending Mint. I also don't think the issue is getting Linux to be like Windows in an aesthetic sense. The idea is that Windows is easy because it has buttons and gui things that are easy to use. Scripting is not easy. Building kernals is not easy. Clicking a button is easy. Knowing which button to click is less easy, but still easy.

My goal for using Linux is to be able to do things more easily than if I stick to Windows. If I can do the same in Windows more easily than in Linux, what's the point? Again, I'm not doing this for the love of it. I feel this notion always gets lost with those like me who ask for advice when transitioning to Linux.

And this doesn't mean I'm opposed to learning scripting. But it's not something I want to do every day. I'll put it this way: if I need to script to get things going in the beginning, that's fine. But I don't want to script on a weekly basis. After it's set up, I want buttons and GUIs.

You have buttons, guis, start menus. But the little applets don't always work. When you click an applet and nothing happens, it's good to be able to find the script. Unless you can hire an IT guy to be the SysAdmin you should think of yourself as one. Although Linux is a lot more bullet proof than in the old days, and much stuff works with point and click, it's not a no brainer. To think you are going to breeze in and everything will be Jake is self-delusion. If you want no think point and click you should go Apple. If you stop and consider all the little tools you buy and download, and all the tips you read, to keep Windows usable, you may realize you are maintaining it all the time. It's just you've swum in that stream so long you don't feel the water. Linux will be alien. The biggest transition will be text editors have a different paradigm. To start you may want to find Windows editors that will run under Wine. But it's better to use the Linux tools as they work best with that OS.

Linux is very powerful but there's nobody else to do the lifting. To go in half-hearted, you may as well just use what you know.

edit: when I say you'll need some scripting I don't mean run out and learn a bunch of programming languages. I mean you may read some basics of bash scripting, which is most likely what will be set up on the system. You can usually find example scripts to do certain tasks that have the generic stuff filled in. Or you just need to edit an environment variable that's set in one of the start up scripts. If nothing else, you'll probably need to edit /etc/fstab at some point. It's just a text file with the layout of the disk partitions and file systems that are mounted under root '/' currently. It's not that difficult.

40hz · « **Reply #43 on:** March 01, 2012, 10:06 PM »

Quote from: superboyac on March 01, 2012, 08:43 PM

Well then! This might be the first install, if the VM doesn't get there first.

I'd go live-CD before I went virtual if I just wanted to experiment. VMs introduce occasional complexities that may skew your first impressions.

Just my 2¢.

40hz · « **Reply #44 on:** March 01, 2012, 10:17 PM »

Quote from: Renegade on March 01, 2012, 07:21 AM

Watching this thread with great interest...

My main problem is how to maintain complete MS Office compatibility, so I need to check Libre Office. Once I've solved that, I really have no truly compelling reasons to stay on Windows, though I will need Windows for quite some time no matter what.

If Libre doesn't float your boat, you can always install and run Office inside Linux using WINE or purchase a copy of Codeweavers CrossOver and run it under that.

Alternatively, Softmaker Office is highly MS Office compatible and has native versions available for Linux. This is what I usually prefer to use.

mahesh2k · « **Reply #45 on:** March 01, 2012, 10:25 PM »

Quote from: Innuendo on March 01, 2012, 09:16 PM

Quote from: mahesh2k on March 01, 2012, 05:57 PM
Example?

Gladly....from the Panda3D manual:

http://www.panda3d.org/manual/index.php/Installing_Panda3D_in_Linux

Quote
The easiest way to install panda is to use the RPM or DEB packages. This is only possible if your version of Linux is one of the provided versions of Linux. If not, you will need to compile from source. If there is an installer available, download and install the RPM or DEB appropriate to your version of Linux.

That's just one example. I've seen similar regarding lots of other programs.

Full disclosure: I don't run Linux myself. The huge push in 2000 or so to put Linux on the desktop only yielded Linux running my router & my NAS in my house.

I am not quite sure he's going to jump into programming side. Panda3D engine is C++/Python based and is not something SB will get in linux. I do agree with you that there are some other complex softwares which are not in repositories that are likely to be compiled but that's rare considering usage of OP.

MilesAhead · « **Reply #46 on:** March 01, 2012, 10:44 PM »

@Carol Haynes

Quote

In particular I really like Canon printers and they just don't do Linux

...

Quote

I suppose it is what comes of using generic/similar model emulator drivers.

That's one thing I found very frustrating also. When scanners were still a new thing I suffered by having a model that was one step below the most popular. The module would never initialize properly since it was made for another model scanner of that brand. I had to initialize by booting Windows, then I could warm boot and use it in Linux. Many distros keep a hardware compatibility list. It's a good idea to check it for the exact models of the hardware most important to you. That's what got me on Mandrake in the first place. I didn't install it just because it had some cachet. I had a Gateway system and the components were nearly identical to HP that Mandrake 9.0 was designed for. Everything worked but the scanner.

Anyway, many people don't know there's a hardware compatibility list. They install and hope, then get disappointed.

edit: speaking of which, when distro threads pop up and people ask "what's the best Linux distro" I would usually answer "the best Linux distro is the one that supports all your hardware." It just makes everything tougher if you have to kludge hardware support. My general feeling is that passing Linux distros off as a "fake free Windows" does a disservice. It lulls the person trying it into thinking the front end is going to be pretty much what they are used to and the stuff under the covers can be ignored. Stuff trying to be what it isn't tends to break easier than stuff trying to be what it is. If the OP has no desire to try a Mandrake type distro that's fine. In that case my only suggestion would be to get something where APT is designed in, not hacked on. It takes off a lot of the stress if you install a program and it at least comes up on the first go. With APT most stuff works out of the box as the directories are there and you don't have to hack around patching things. That was what drove me away from Redhat after using several releases. Every rpg was just a bit different. APT made life a lot easier.

Carol Haynes · « **Reply #47 on:** March 02, 2012, 01:00 AM »

OK here is a challenge then - can someone point at a distro and driver package that will properly support my ethernet based all-in-one PIXMA MX850 (by which I mean as good as Canon's native Windows drivers - including paper profiles for different types of printing, scaling output, double sided, booklet printing etc.) - that means printing good quality, scanning from the computer (and ideally scanning at the printer to the computer) and the use of the auto-document feeder. Preferably an easy to install driver package.

I tried searching for it and the only solution I could find was for SANE which requires compiling and testing - not something I want to have to do just to get a printer working. I found lots of people complaining across a range of distros that they were trying to find a solution for this printer.

I also have a wireless Brother HL-2270DW laser printer - I have to confess I haven't looked for that but it would need to work.

40hz · « **Reply #48 on:** March 02, 2012, 01:02 AM »

Quote from: MilesAhead on February 29, 2012, 09:19 PM

@40hz The "attitude that holds Linux back" is not Linux that is Linux. It's Linux that tries to be Windows. It's like calling elevator music "Smooth Jazz" to make it seem fashionable. To compete with Windows for Windows users is futile. Linux needs to be something different. The Windowsalike distro, in my opinion, is for those who must use something Linux when they don't want to. Therefore the rest of the OS environment is kept as painless as possible. In such cases the user should try to run the needed app in a VM in Windows. If the user really wants Linux, he/she should be prepared to learn some scripting. The more solid the distro the better. I've seen plenty of people crying on forums about broken Mint. I haven't seen anyone crying about broken Mandriva.

Unless I'm running a business on the Linux distro I have no need to buy support or have any interest in the status of the company. The package tool is standardized. I don't think APT is going away.

@Miles - I don't want to get into a drawn out debate over the relative merits of one distro vs another. Lets leave that for the acolytes and evangelists. Apple already has that well covered too.

My point was it's better to start off with one of the mainstream and broadly adopted distros to get your feet wet rather than opting for a lesser known one if you're looking for minimal starting hassles. You seem to really like Mandriva. Fine by me. Whatever works best for you. I've used almost every version of it since back when it was still Mandrake. And I personally stopped being impressed with it quite some time ago for reasons far too picky to be worth getting into. It's a fine distro. Nuff said.

As far as broken Mint installations, I haven't experienced that where I am. Mint just seems to work for the people I deal with. But I have no strong axe to grind about it either way. And I'll drop it like a bad habit the minute it stops working for me as well as it currently is. But either way, I'm not seeing anybody who's crying about a broken Mint. And FWIW, I hardly hear anybody even mentioning Mandriva much, other than to talk about the soap opera it's become business-wise. So I guess what's popular depends on where you live. In my neck of the woods it's Debian and Debian-based distros for the most part - with a few VCIWs singing the praises of Suse. And where it's not mostly Debian-based (i.e. servers) it's BSD before it's RedHat.

To your philosophical point about how it would be better for Linux to pursue it's own paradigm and totally ignore Windows I'll have to agree. Partly. But not completely. Because there's a lot to be said for familiarity. And most people don't give blort about any of the technical or design stuff most of us mutants live for. And pursuing perfection in the computing world is like chasing clouds. Good exercise. But it won't help you get your chores done.

Ten years ago I would have agreed with you 100% that Linux absolutely needs to go its own way. I'm not so insistent any more. Mainly because it can't. There's too much existing technology and daily practice for it to divorce itself from history. 20 years ago it might have had a better chance to do that. With each passing day it becomes less likely and desirable for it to do so because it can't exist as an island. Not with Windows still holding +80% of the desktop and paradigm.

But maybe a lot of my opinion is shaped by the fact I've learned to become a pragmatist over the years. As a network integrator and system support tech, I really don't have much choice to be anything but. I have no philosophy to espouse other than the need for alternatives to be made available. That and a belief that the correct solution is the one that works for the person using it.

Pretty sad huh? That's what happens when you start getting old.

MilesAhead · « **Reply #49 on:** March 02, 2012, 02:50 AM »

Quote

@Miles - I don't want to get into a drawn out debate over the relative merits of one distro vs another.

For someone who doesn't want to argue you sure post a lot with multiple paragraphs. As soon as I saw a Linux thread I knew it would degenerate to be honest. Still, like the guy hoping the football would not be pulled away this time, I tried to give the OP the benefit of my experience.

Linux that tries to be Windows will not work other than as a marketing ploy to generate disaffected users. I really see no point in going on with this thread. The OP will do whatever stikes his fancy. Good luck on his trials.