Superboyac is throwing in the towel: I'm going to transition to Linux

[superboyac]

Well, I've managed to sidestep Linux over the years, but now it's time.  I'm doing it...I'm going to start transitioning to Linux.

I'm tired of feeling guilty by trying to get my Windows system to do exactly the things I want.  I've noticed most of the interesting developments have been stifled in recent years because of all the copyright issues.  The Linux guys really are my crowd.  All open, all free...it's what I believe in.

I don't know how long it will take, it took me a year to transition from XP to Win7, so I imagine this may take me a couple of years.  But i don't want to pay money anymore to faceless companies.  I want to be part of a community that helps each other out regardless of how much they get paid, and that's the Linux community.  And I'll gladly give them my money before the other guys.

I've been pushing the limits of Windows for a while now.  I keep running into obstacles, not because I'm pushing the technology, but because copyright concerns are preventing the technologies from developing.  My ideas of what I want to do with my computer should NOT feel like I'm the first person to ask for something like this.  I'm really not that clairvoyant.  I've struggled with the cloud for a couple of years now, and there's no need for it.  Let the masses deal with the proprietary stuff and all the headaches that come along with it.  I want to be with the guys that are freely exploring their ideas.

Where's Zaine?  Z...I'm joining the club, I'm going underground.  I held off as long as I could.

[attach=#]

[MilesAhead]

The main alternative.  Do it the hard way and learn how the stuff works under the covers:  Slackware

Do it the easy way and boot to everything up and running: Mandriva One

Basically Mandriva is the descendant of Mandrake, which was before and better than Ubuntu, but only had buzz among developers.  I tried Mandriva One 10 awhile back just to see if it still had it. If you have broadband, boot one CD.  Set up your disk with Linux and swap partitions. Choose your packages, window manager and account passwords, reboot. It comes up to your account in the Window Manager with everything you chose installed. If what you picked in Package Manager isn't on the CD, it's downloaded right then.  It uses APT same as Debian and Ubuntu, but the whole install and package manager setup is done better. It's the smoothest OS install I've ever used, aside from maybe the old days of one Dos Diskette. Also Mandrake was known for optimized performance.  It installed Pentium kernel back in the day when most distros still put on a 386 kernel for fear of incompatibility. It was the distro for developers as the package manager had free programming languages by the dozen. Stuff you may not even know existed. In short, it kicks ass.


The Ubuntu guy must be a PR maven 'cause I don't see the reason for the buzz other than that Ubuntu uses APT package tool.  Empty fame.

[superboyac]

Yeah Miles...you're waaaay ahead of me here.  I don't understand half the things you said, but I'm going to learn.  I need to start learning the Linux lingo.  If I understand correctly, you're saying Ubuntu is overrated and this mandriva is a good, easy install to introduce me to Linux.  So I'll give it a shot.

[hpearce]

You don't want pay money to faceless companies ... I expect most big companies are .... your options are very limited if you really believe that.

For me, I'm mored intereted in getting what I pay for than a pretty "politically correct" face company

[MilesAhead]

Yeah Miles...you're waaaay ahead of me here.  I don't understand half the things you said, but I'm going to learn.  I need to start learning the Linux lingo.  If I understand correctly, you're saying Ubuntu is overrated and this mandriva is a good, easy install to introduce me to Linux.  So I'll give it a shot.

Right. There was a saying "if you learn another distro, you learn that distro. If you learn Slackware, you learn Linux."  I'm not a guru like some of the guys who helped me when I was struggling with Slackware. But it made you get down into the scripts that ran on startup. The installer got you to a command prompt with 6 virtual terminals. If you wanted X you had to copy the libraries on, configure all the settings, by hand.  It's not as draconian as that anymore. But Slackware still prides itself on being close to the metal.

The most important thing though, once you are up and running I think you'll find Mandriva very usable. I tried Redhat for awhile, but the rpg package tool was a struggle. Not so much that rpg was bad, it's more that default directories weren't set up as in APT. APT just works much nicer. If you installed a program it didn't take you 5 more days to get it to work unless it was some really complicated network stuff like a Samba server or something.  Also there has been a lot of homogenization since I was doing it. Now it's pretty much taken for granted the PC will have a PCI bus with some kind of Super VGA or later video etc..  Back when I was doing Slackware 3 sometimes it was a challenge just to get the mouse to work right.

Mandriva is a stable and well constructed distro. I think you'll be a bit ahead of the game if you start with it.

edit: btw in case there's any doubt.. the One CD is a freebie. Download burn and install. Things may have changed a bit since I was heavy into Linux in that back then most of the help was found on nntp newsgroups.  They may have emigrated to web forums.. but maybe not. A search brings up this page which seems a good starting point:

http://wiki.mandriva.com/en/Help

[40hz]

I prefer some of the newer distros to start on.

Instead of Slackware as a "run on bare metal" choice I'd go with Arch Linux if you really want to learn what it's all about on a very fundamental level. Good docs too.

Instead of Mandriva (who's future is still up in the air) I'd go with Linux Mint for an easy to use minimal hassle Linux that's very Windows like. A very polished and svelte distro, perfect for beginners - and more than powerful enough for an advanced user. Top user pick over at Distrowatch. And for good reason.

[rgdot]

Seriously considering doing something similar and for the fun of it starting with one of these
http://arstechnica.com/gadgets/news/2012/02/linux-computer-the-size-of-a-thumb-drive-now-available-for-preorder.ars

FXI is preparing to launch the Cotton Candy, a tiny computer that looks like a USB thumb drive. The device, which can run either Ubuntu or Android 4.0, has a dual-core 1.2GHz ARM Cortex-A9 CPU, 1GB of RAM, and a Mali 400MP GPU that allows it to decode high-definition video.

It has a USB plug on one side, which is used to power the system, and an HDMI plug on the other side, which allows it to be plugged into a display. It also has built-in WiFi and Bluetooth radios for connectivity and supporting input devices. The system can boot standalone and operate as a complete computer when plugged into a display. It's also possible to plug the Cotton Candy into a conventional computer and boot from it like you would from a regular USB mass storage device.

FXI announced today that the Cotton Candy is available for preorder. The standard retail price is $199 plus tax and shipping. The product is expected to ship in March. The small form factor and relatively high specs make the product seem like a compelling choice for enthusiasts who are looking for an ultra-compact Linux system.

[MilesAhead]

The trouble with Linux discussion is as soon as a distro is mentioned then there are 400 conflicting suggestions.  Mandrake/Mandriva has been a consistent no hassle distro since 2002, if not eariler. At any rate that's when I looked at 9.0. 9.1 they pretty much got the bugs out. Boot, choose, reboot, use.  If someone wants an OS that is very "Windows like" they should run Windows. You can't get more Windows like than that. The point is that it's not Windows like. It's Linux like.

[mouser]

Keep us updated on your progress -- it will be interesting to hear how you find linux.

I would rate your chance of success much higher if your goal was not so much to "transition" but rather "explore and use and embrace".. Not that transitioning isn't possible it just might be the case that you find that Windows is more useful to you for some projects, and linux for others. You tend to be quite picky about your software experiences -- It will just be interesting to see how that plays out in the linux world.. I have my doubts.  However, zaine is a legend -- if he can do it, it can be done.

Just my 2 cents!

[40hz]

The trouble with Linux discussion is as soon as a distro is mentioned then there are 400 conflicting suggestions.

With all due respect Miles, that's not trouble. That's choice and informed opinion - which is what Linux is supposed to be about. Follow your own weird.

Mandrake/Mandriva has been a consistent no hassle distro since 2002, if not eariler. At any rate that's when I looked at 9.0. 9.1 they pretty much got the bugs out. Boot, choose, reboot, use.

Mandriva was a very rad and polished solution when it came out. Unfortunately, a series of bad business decisions and governance has put it in a very precarious position financially. Most informed people in the IT industry that follow Linux closely don't give it much hope of surviving long term. Here's one of several articles that cover this issue. Do a Google search if you want to see more. Most are saying just about the same thing.

From the Mandriva website:

← Decision postponed
Not this time
Posted on January 30, 2012 by Jean-Manuel Croset_0

Unfortunately, the bid proposed by the external entity has been refused by a minority shareholder and we cannot go for this solution. Fortunately, the financial situation – far better than expected – allow us to search for a new way to solve the current issue until mid-February. We’ll be able to count on the help of the Paris Region Economic Development Agency for this important move.

With an uncertain future, Mandriva is not a good choice to start using at this point. Especially since it is a unique and independently maintained fork of RedHat and with it's own exclusive software repositories. If it goes out of business, it's pretty much over for it's users.

So short of the French government doing a bailout, it doesn't look too good for Mandriva since February is now something like the third sudden death overtime for this distro.

If someone wants an OS that is very "Windows like" they should run Windows. You can't get more Windows like than that.

Here's where we're going to have to agree to disagree.

That attitude has done a lot to hold Linux back. There is nothing wrong with different OS windows managers having cultural or visual similarities. Because under the hood, all operating systems do the same things. And anything that promotes someone's ability to move from platform to platform and still get work done can't possibly be a bad thing.

So while it may be cool in some circles to insist that Linux is so totally different from everything else that you need to forget what you know about Windows (and all the skills you acquired using it) - the simple truth is that this argument doesn't hold water on the user level.

All modern  windows managers contain the same elements: windows, sliders, check boxes, cursors, icons, text boxes, radio buttons, spinners, a desktop metaphor, etc.

And guess what? They all pretty much work just the same. There are minor differences to be sure. But they're mostly just that:minor differences.

I've probably introduced a few hundred people to Linux and migrated several businesses and organizations over to it over the years. Guess what almost everybody says? "Hey! It's a lot like Windows!" Wanna know why? Because it is a lot like Windows. Especially if you use Gnome2. And even more especially if you use Mint.

I've booted a Mint live CD and told less tech savvy users it's a top secret beta release of Microsoft Windows which won't be coming out until late 2013. Then I turned them loose on it. Almost everyone could use it with no coaching after a little initial fumbling around getting used to where things were put. Most liked it. And about half thought it was better than Win7.

To me that's reason enough to start with something like Mint if immediate productivity and virtually no learning curve is your goal. You can always tackle Arch or Slackware later on if you want to get into the real (and fascinating IMHO) nitty-gritty of how Linux works. But in the meantime, you can get your work done and get as far away from MS Windows as possible.

Note: You probably can't BTW. Or at least I can't. Which is why I will probably always keep at least one laptop running some flavor Windows. Mainly because there's some stuff you just can't run efficiently - or at all - otherwise. But I also have a Mac Mini for exactly the same reason. I don't have to like it. But I do occasionally need to use it. (I'm sorry Mom! But it's my job!)

I personally prefer the elegant xfce environment for my window manager when I'm not working in a terminal session, which is where I spend about half my time. But I'm a geek so that doesn't count.

Right now, about the only people who are still insisting that their desktop and OS  is fundamentally different and unique from everyone else's is Apple with OSX.

Feel free to believe them if you want to.

On second thought, with the advent of Metro, Linux is more Windows-like than Windows.

So much for labels, huh? 

The point is that it's not Windows like. It's Linux like.

Maybe beneath the hood, and for a software developer, that's true. But for an enduser working off the desktop very much less so. I've studied a lot of OS and interface design. And I don't see it at all. So if someone can enlighten me about why it's "Linux-like" and not "Windows-like" on a non-trivial level, I'd be happy to hear it.

Anyway, enough of this nonsense. I've done this rant so often that even I get sick of listening to myself repeat it. So I'm gonna shut-up now.

The best advice I have for a new Linux user is to just start using something - and keep your eyes and mind open in the meantime.

Oh yes - and don't forget to have fun.

[attach]

[steeladept]

I am with you 100% 40hz.  I have dabbled in several different distros, use CentOS at work (now moving to RedHat Enterprise, because they are forcing the issue), use Mint Linux Debian Edition with xfce at home, set up others on Ubuntu, etc., etc....

By far, Mint is my choice, especially for the Debian editions...They just work (is this a Mac commercial?).  Once you get started you can dig as far as you want to on any distro, so learning on Gentoo or Slackware seems counterintuitive to me.  Sure you fight through it because you HAVE to, but if you want to learn it from the ground up, do it with the fallback to something you can find instead of frustrating yourself out of Linux all together.  Many find learning through that frustration not worth the effort, especially when they need/want to get stuff done.  

I have gone more the other way though.  As much as I like linux, especially Debian version of Mint, I am leaning far more heavily toward Windows, since I keep finding many of the apps I want or need are there.  Sure there are similar apps in Linux for the most part, but their quality varies far more and the learning curve FOR EACH APP is far higher (in general).  The server side is different (it is generally always high regardless of platform), but for the desktop, I just keep coming back to Windows.  AND...the apps that are for the desktop that are good and supported in Linux are generally available for Windows anyway; but that is just me.  I like most all OS's (not a big fan of System-Z) on the technical level, so I am fairly agnostic there.  Of course there is that corporate side of things - but in the end it is, as the saying goes, ALL ABOUT THE APPS.

[Rover]

Welcome to the club SuperboyAC

Please be aware that Linux is not perfect either.  It does give you the opportunity to get very involved in the details of your OS, but it has it's own pitfalls*.

I've got a working Fedora Core 13 Image that I can't move away from.  I've tried.....  Just tonight I tried openSuSE (make up your own pronunciation) 12.1 as a replacement.   It doesn't recognize my RealTek 1G NIC.  Of all the things to not get... Sheesh.  So play with some different distro's.  I've previously had very good experience with PCLinuxOS, but they have yet to release their 64 bit version.

MintOS seems like a good place to start for former Windows users.  I'm not a huge fan of Ubuntu and/or Ubuntu based distros, but Mint seems pretty cool.

Why I like my Fed 13:  I have Virtual Box installed and running.  Chrome and Flash work.  I have a terminal window and a bit torrent client.  My 2 TB backup drive is mounted. My SSD works (quickly) and I feel at home.
I really wish I could upgrade, but I haven't found a good replacement yet.  But then I ran Windows XP until 2005 and I still have it on my Work Laptop, so my opinion is skewed.

*Desktop Linux:  I think Linux is 100% perfect for any server installation.

[mahesh2k]

1) Don't install linux on your working windows machine. Pick another old hardware or desktop which you rarely use or share with someone else and install linux on that. Why? You'll experiment a lot with linux in earlier days and are likely to break things or two, you'll get frustrated if you fail to fix things and then you will give up on linux. That is pretty much the pattern for most windows migrants. That's why pick a separate machine and start breaking things. I mean it, by breaking more linux you'll learn a lot.

2) Choose debian based distros because there is plenty of help (videos and tutorials) available on the internet compared Red Hat/Mandriva distros. Ubuntu may be over-rated but will offer you a better desktop and lots of options. Mint is ubuntu derivative (and in turn debian's grand-child) and you get best of their parent distros if you decide to install them. If you want cool UI based debian distro then try elementary which is ubuntu based but modified to look and work like iOS.

Many people will suggest you some geeky distros like archlinux, where you're supposed to build things from ground, avoid those distros. Use distros that offer easy installers and pre-configured apps. In such case debian child distros like ubuntu, mint and suse are fine.

3) Command line is not evil. You'll find it more useful compared to UI based installation. It is way better than command line in windows.

4) Start using alternative office and entertainment softwares on both windows and linux. This makes things easy for you on both platforms. For example, use Libre instead of MS office, you'll hardly feel any difference when you switch the platform.

5) AHK features are possible indirectly with shell scripts and python/perl/DE scripting. So you have multiple ways of doing things in linux. You just have to digg a lot to get there.

6) Repeat after me : There are some windows softwares that you can't replace. Yes. That is true. You can't replace some softwares and it is also hard to run them under crossover/wine in linux. This is the reason you should keep windows working in alternate machine.

7) Desktop environment is hard to choose. You have KDE, Gnome, XFCE, Cinamon(Mate) and few other options. Try live CD and use every DE possible so that you can test your comfort level. If you like windows XP feel then I'm sure you'll find KDE/XFCE/Mate comfortable to use. If you like OSX type of UI then Gnome and Ubuntu unity is all you need. Experiment with all of them and then decide. Beauty of linux is choice, we used only one shell in our windows/osx life, linux offers us a lot of geeky options even in desktop environment. Use it, just for fun and learning.

8 ) There is big UI shift coming in linux world. Ubuntu HUD is one example of it. If you're still new then you can either start with ubuntu and be comfortable with it or you can switch to KDE/Xfce/Mate and stick with UI which works and looks like windows. I'm suggesting this because linux DE developers are messing with (or experimenting) with UI a lot lately.

9) Android is also available on desktop. If you're not worried about privacy, then you can use it on both phone and desktop. In that case there isn't much to learn or unlearn, it's just your usage and google's way of doing things.

10) Linux isn't dark side or hell, it's just gibberish because of few linux devs.  

[superboyac]

Lots of great information and advice here.  I'm probably going to have to keep re-reading this stuff as I get more familiar.

I think I'm going to try the following experiments these next few months:
--I have an old laptop.  I'm going to put Mint on it and play around with it.
--I'll also install some flavor of Linux on a virtual machine on Windows to have something right there on my main machine.
--I still need to build me a server.  Maybe I'll start off with a simple tower, put some kind of Linux server and ownCloud on it.

mouser knows me too well...the software is going to be interesting.  I'm not sure which software will be the most difficult for me to replace...the ones I use the most are Dopus and the Bat.  I'm not worried about DOpus since I'm pretty sure Linux has several really nice file managers.  The Bat I'm worried about.  I don't even want to think about how to all those emails and stuff over.

And maybe a complete transition isn't the right idea.  Perhaps it should be a gentle expansion of my computing habits.  I'll just add it to my ecosystem.  Use it as my second computer, or backup computer, or media server.  Heck, if I can learn how to set up a decent file server easily, that's worth it right there.

You guys know me...I'm going to be all over the place on this.  I expect I'll change my mind no less than 30 times, and I'll have some emotional mood swings throughout.

[cranioscopical]

I'll have some emotional mood swings throughout.

Well, you have chosen a roundabout way of doing things.

[wraith808]

And maybe a complete transition isn't the right idea.  Perhaps it should be a gentle expansion of my computing habits.  I'll just add it to my ecosystem.  Use it as my second computer, or backup computer, or media server.  Heck, if I can learn how to set up a decent file server easily, that's worth it right there.

From my experiences, I'd suggest this.  I started trying a Linux transition years ago using flavors of SUSE.  Though I found it an interesting exercise, and had it pretty much in the setup that you talk about- on my server, in a VM, and on a throwaway machine, I found myself transitioning them out as I came to an interesting conclusion:

Please be aware that Linux is not perfect either.  It does give you the opportunity to get very involved in the details of your OS, but it has it's own pitfalls*.

And I'd even extend that to his *'d note.  I use Linux more in a server environment also- but it has its ups and downs, which is why I maintain two servers.

Have fun.. and you'll definitely learn a lot!

[MilesAhead]

@40hz The "attitude that holds Linux back" is not Linux that is Linux. It's Linux that tries to be Windows. It's like calling elevator music "Smooth Jazz" to make it seem fashionable. To compete with Windows for Windows users is futile. Linux needs to be something different. The Windows-alike distro, in my opinion, is for those who must use something Linux when they don't want to. Therefore the rest of the OS environment is kept as painless as possible. In such cases the user should try to run the needed app in a VM in Windows. If the user really wants Linux, he/she should be prepared to learn some scripting.  The more solid the distro the better. I've seen plenty of people crying on forums about broken Mint. I haven't seen anyone crying about broken Mandriva.


Unless I'm running a business on the Linux distro I have no need to buy support or have any interest in the status of the company.  The package tool is standardized. I don't think APT is going away.

My solution to "transitioning" is have a slow machine with Windows networked to a fast machine with Linux.  You will want to bail when frustrated with Linux because you already know how to do it in Windows. But, you will want to use the faster machine.  That will ameliorate the impulse to jump to the Windoze machine at the first glitch.

All these graphs, opinion polls and financial statements are a farce if you're not running a business on the distro and paying for support.  The only support you need is help from more experienced users and reading the books that tell you what you need to know. If you want easy stick with what you already know.

Edit: from the beginning I thought the effort to dumb down Linux was a mistake.  Not the effort to make a simple fool proof install and rock solid desktop. To expand the Linux market by dumbing it down is itself dumb. It won't work.  Apple already has that market covered. Click to use, don't get confused. If you just want to be a "user" Linux is really making life tough on yourself.

[superboyac]

If I'm being honest, my big fear with Linux is the scripting.  I'm really not that interested in learning scripting because it's fun or it will help me grow as a person.  I want to get things done as easily as possible.  i think 40hz knows that about me, that's why he is recommending Mint.  I also don't think the issue is getting Linux to be like Windows in an aesthetic sense.  The idea is that Windows is easy because it has buttons and gui things that are easy to use.  Scripting is not easy.  Building kernals is not easy.  Clicking a button is easy.  Knowing which button to click is less easy, but still easy.

My goal for using Linux is to be able to do things more easily than if I stick to Windows.  If I can do the same in Windows more easily than in Linux, what's the point?  Again, I'm not doing this for the love of it.  I feel this notion always gets lost with those like me who ask for advice when transitioning to Linux.

And this doesn't mean I'm opposed to learning scripting.  But it's not something I want to do every day.  I'll put it this way: if I need to script to get things going in the beginning, that's fine.  But I don't want to script on a weekly basis.  After it's set up, I want buttons and GUIs.

[mouser]

This is not going to end well 

[superboyac]

This is not going to end well 

I already know that I'm going to have to be a little open-minded about this, so just be ready for some schizo reactions from me throughout this process.  You've been warned!

[mouser]

I think it will be a great experience for you if you take more of a hacker mindset to it -- don't expect everything to be go perfectly smoothly and for it to be a smooth "transition" -- think of it more like exploring an alternate reality.

[superboyac]

I think it will be a great experience for you if you take more of a hacker mindset to it -- don't expect everything to be go perfectly smoothly and for it to be a smooth "transition" -- think of it more like exploring an alternate reality.

it will take practice, but that's something I have to get used to thinking about. 
My psychological battle is going to be:
"I want to set up a file server by only pressing a single button."
vs.
"I want to set up a file server, but first I need to learn the Linux scripting syntax, then customize some scripts I found on the web, then spend hours putting it all together and getting it to work before I ask skwire and mouser to make me the button above for 12 donation credits."

[Stoic Joker]

I gotta make popcorn for this show...


There are times when CLI/scripting really is easier than a GUI ... Especially if you have to drill through 900 dialogs to find setting X.

While not a recommendation (I'd go with 40 for those), I do like, and periodically play around with Slackware.

[sword]

I have been moving to Linux recently. I tried most of the 'live' CD versions and like, in order of preference, Knoppix, Mint v12, Puppy, Vector, Berry. I found using them on a laptop to be *very* frustrating [hardware problems]. I liked Mint v12 so much that I installed it to hard drive a couple of weeks ago and it is fun and the package management works very well [prolog, emacs].  I plan to remaster and burn small live specialist CDs for specific tasks. Cheers.

[40hz]

There are times when CLI/scripting really is easier than a GUI ... Especially if you have to drill through 900 dialogs to find setting X.

...or you just want to write a nice script, chron it, and maybe get home before 9:00pm some night for a change.

Because if you don't you'll eventually end up morphing into a BOFH!!!!!

I liked Mint

Me too. It's the only distro I've ever used that was able to recognize and configure my antique Belkin FD9050 USB wifi adapter right out of the box.

That alone was proof enough to me Mint is the ideal first distro for most users. Such attention to detail!