Multibooting and Partitioning Experiments

[wolf.b]

I have been experimenting with partitioning my hard drive to be able to achieve these goals:

• multiple OS to choose from
• several instances of same OS to choose from
• have a drive with essential tools and data mapped to the same letter at all times
• write my own boot manager using batch files
• use hard disk backups for OS

After researching and reading what I could find I came to the following conclusions:

• I have to partition my hard drive and give each OS its own space. The is a very limited amount (4) of primary partitions that I can put inside the partition table of the master boot record. But I can put any number of logical drives inside an extended partition, given an large enough hard disk.
• Most (maybe all) OS for PC run well when they are installed on a logical drive and I boot from a matching DOS floppy. So I thought maybe they also run well when booting from a small primary DOS partition.
• In order to have access to a collection of essential tools (they are in a folder called TOOLS), I would have to copy that folder onto all of the floppies and primary partitions. That clearly is not possible because of lack of space and it would be a pain to maintain in case I update one of the tools or batches. So I have created an extended partition that contains a FAT16 logical drive and always shows up as D:.

Now I have a setup where

• C: is the only one of my primary partitions that gets mentioned in the MBR
• D: is the first (and always visible) logical drive and contains stuff that I consider essential. For me that is private data, DOS tools, and non-DOS tools that don't rely on being installed.
• E: is a logical drive where Windows operating systems (version >= 95) are installed. Only one of them is visible.
• F: contains a Setup folder where I keep installers for software.
• G: contains a Games folder and a Disks folder containing ISO images.
• H: contains a Backup folder for OS.
• This list is not complete but shows the organising of my hard disk.

I have used these tools to set up my system:

• Microsoft DOS                    (operating system)
• Ranish Partition Manager         (partitioning tool)
• Powerquest Partition Magic       (partitioning tool)
• Norton Ghost                     (imaging tool)
• JP soft 4DOS                     (powerful batch language)
• BREXX by Vassilis N. Vlachoudis  (rexx extension to 4DOS batch language)
• Microsoft Debug                  (assembler extension to 4DOS batch language)
• Norton Commander                 (orthodox file manager for DOS)
• Volkov Commander                 (orthodox file manager for DOS)
• WBAT by Horst Schaeffer          (dialogue boxes, menus and more for DOS)

Here is a pseudo screenshot:
[attachimg=#]
The entire hard disk is represented in the 2nd row. Most space is occupied by the extended partition containing logical drives.


My reason for starting this thread is not to get anybody to do something similar. I just want to present my thoughts and experiments with multibooting and partitioning. This thread is a spin off of this thread: http://www.donationcoder.com/forum/index.php?topic=10154.msg78404#msg78404, which I did not want to hijack. I feel I could write an awful lot more here, but the reading would become pretty boring, unless I write about specific topics that others are interested in. So I invite you all to share your experiments as well, and to ask about specific topics if you like. I don't claim expertise on anything, but I might be able to help. My main inspiration came from this website in 1999: The REAL Multi-boot -Trombettworks. It has been updated since I got my inspiration. Very useful tutorial, very technical in places, and very much in love with Ranish Partition Manager.


Greetings
Wolf

[tomos]

Interesting read Wolf 

I've never indulged in multibooting,
but when setting up partitions & windows xp install lately
someone suggested making a hidden partition that I could possibly use later for multibooting (so I did)

also, these were recommended:
http://www.goodells.net/multiboot/index.htm
http://www.goodells.net/multiboot/notes.htm

and here is one partitioning guide I came across
http://partition.radified.com/partitioning_4.htm

I see you do have XP on a logical drive ?!?
Is it the boot.ini file going into the initial primary partitions that makes that okay?

Also curious about Ranish Partition Manager - it hasnt been updated in years,
is it good?
Do you have Powerquest Partition Magic because Ranish has limitations?

I see there's a few links about multibooting, etc at the ranish page:
http://www.ranish.com/part/

Multi-boot: Archer's HD Page, Multi-boot by Mariusz Zynel, Trombettworks Multi-boot HowTo Hard disks: Boot Sequence, How-It-Works, Terms, Hidden Secrets, Recovering Secret HD Space! Other apps: Bootpart, Diskman, GAG, OS Loader, SavePart, SBM, Volkov, Zeleps Partition Resizer

[wolf.b]

Hi tomos,

do you miss Ireland? How do you cope with all those humor-free Germans (me included)? I am not spying on you but I have found your post whilst reading the thread "OK - lets get to know each other... who are you, what do you do, where from?". I might introduce myself properly over there as well, but not today.

Thank you for your links. I will read them after posting this.
Yes, XP is on a logical drive on my desktop computer (bought that when I was working in the UK). So is Win2000 on a virtual machine. I have two old laptops with Win98SE on a logical drive. I have never had any problems with that. Works like a charm. This is my boot.ini:

Code

; BOOT.INI
; edited by Wolfgang Bernady

[Boot Loader]
TimeOut=5
;Default=C:\SECTOR\msdos622.bin
;Default=C:\SECTOR\msdos710.bin
;Default=C:\SECTOR\cmdcons.bin
;Default=C:\SECTOR\minint.bin
;Default=multi(0)disk(0)rdisk(0)partition(3)\WINDOWS
Default=multi(0)disk(0)rdisk(0)partition(4)\WINDOWS
;Default=multi(0)disk(0)rdisk(0)partition(5)\WINDOWS

[Operating Systems]
C:\SECTOR\floppy.bin   = "Floppy A:"
C:\SECTOR\msdos622.bin = "MS DOS 6.22 (Win 3.11)"
C:\SECTOR\msdos710.bin = "MS DOS 7.10 (Win 98 SE)"
C:\SECTOR\cmdcons.bin  = "XP Recovery Console" /cmdcons
C:\SECTOR\minint.bin   = "XPE Mini Windows" /minint
multi(0)disk(0)rdisk(0)partition(3)\WINDOWS="Windows XP Pro (3)" /noexecute=optin /fastdetect
multi(0)disk(0)rdisk(0)partition(4)\WINDOWS="Windows XP Pro (4)" /noexecute=optin /fastdetect
multi(0)disk(0)rdisk(0)partition(5)\WINDOWS="Windows XP Pro (5)" /noexecute=optin /fastdetect

The three entries for XP are actually all the same installation. I have added them for convenience. When I make two or three primary partitions visible the number needs to change. Right now minint.bin is just a non functional dummy, but floppy.bin will read the floppy boot sector and boot from A: drive, although my BIOS setup will check for HDD only. So even with a boot floppy inserted, the computer boots from the hard disk.

Ranish Partition Manager is good for studying and I regard it as an essential in my TOOLS collection. I also have a floppy without DOS that runs RPM. It starts very fast!!! But it sure has a learning curve. And a lot of features that are missing can be found in Powerquest Partition Magic, such as a graphical user interface with mouse support. On the other hand, RPM allows me to do things that PPM can not do. So I would have to use Powerquest's Partition Table Editor, to do the REAL multi booting thing. At the end of the day two tools are needed and I am used to RPM. Another thing is that PPM + PTedit together don't fit on a bootable DOS floppy, which has io.sys and command.com. Maybe I should try and compress some of those files. But because I have USB boot support on my desktop, I don't really need to do that. And PTedit will not boot from a floppy in under 5 seconds. Unfortunately there is no single application that does it all for me, and I use all three of them. PTedit even works under WinXP when I want to manually mess up the running system.


Greetings
Wolf

[iphigenie]

I have indulged in multi boot and the safer thing is indeed to have one partition per OS

Actually even when I only have 1 OS on a computer I have kept the habit of doing one small partition (about 3gb for xp) for the OS, software/games/data on other partitions.

But when you have multiple OSes it makes even more sense as you can then
- hide each OS's main partition from each other
- share apps and data

Back in the days I had OS/2, Win3 (later XP) and a linux. Nowadays it tends to be one or two windows, the occasional linux (with wine to access some windows apps) or bsd.

Obviously you can do something more clever with virtualisation and/or image tools like FirstDefense - no messing with partitions, just run whatever image you want on top of the same data and app folders. That's what I really want to try next, although it is a lot more work to set up than just installing in parallel.

[Carol Haynes]

I used to indulge in lots of multiboot options (don't at the moment though). At one time I have 5 versions of Windows on my system (Win 98, Win 2k and 3 x Win XP) plus SUSE Linux.

Best advise if you want multiple Windows installations, without resorting to proprietary boot managers, is install them in order of release so that each version is "aware" of the versions already on your system, they will then install an multiboot quite happily. Win 98 only works if it is installed within 8Gb of the start of the first block of a hard disk and on a primary partition (though some boot loaders can overcome these restrictions) but Win 2k onwards can be installed in any partition. Don't forget if you want to share data with Win 98 and older versions of Windows you will need to use FAT32 partitions as they can't read NTFS natively (though I think there were some drivers about - though whether they are still available and how well they work I don't know)

It's not quite true that you need to install on separate partitions - so long as you don't allow multiple versions of windows to use C:\Windows and C:\Program Files (you can select alternates during installation) there isn't any real reason why you can't install everything on the C: drive. Having said that why would you want to?

I found when I had Windows and Linux mixed it was best to install all the Windows stuff first and then install Linux with GRUB last. That way you could use GRUB to go to the normal Windows Boot screen if you wanted to select from multiple Windows installations.

Not sure how Vista has affected all this.

[tomos]

on a personal note - in response to Wolf re germany!

on a personal note -

Hi tomos,

do you miss Ireland? How do you cope with all those humor-free Germans (me included)? I am not spying on you but I have found your post whilst reading the thread "OK - lets get to know each other... who are you, what do you do, where from?". I might introduce myself properly over there as well, but not today.

I think Germans can be a bit stoic when they dont know you - prob depends where they from too -
Saarlanders have a reputation for humour & friendliness,
here in Pfalz I find people very friendly if you talk to them. Maybe they're a bit reserved otherwise 
Once I visited Köln (just for a day) & everyone I met was really friendly & cracking jokes - they deserve their witty/humerous reputation

And, funny, I only miss Ireland when I'm in Ireland - good sign 

re the rest: I'm learning   

[wolf.b]

Hi Carol Haynes,

I have tested my Windows 98 SE again, just to be sure. It is installed on a logical drive. That logical drive is located 12 GB past the start of the drive.

Code

First physical sector = 25,430,958   (Cyl 1,583, Hd 1  , Sect 1)
Last  physical sector = 29,623,859   (Cyl 1,843, Hd 254, Sect 63)

It boots OK. I have no boot loader, I used fdisk /mbr (MSDOS version 7.1). That loads IO.SYS et al. (MSDOS version 7.1) in the boot process, which gives me a DOS prompt. Then I type "win" to start E:\WINDOWS\win.com (Win98SE deutsch). No special software, not even an AUTOEXEC.BAT file gets involved.

Sorry for my stupid question (foreigner), but is the "first block of a hard disk" the same as the first physical sector? If yes, there could be a difference between German and English Win98. I don't have Win98 in English, so I can't test. Or is it the Second Edition of Win98 that enables me to do that?


Greetings
Wolf

[Carol Haynes]

First block / first physical sector are the same.

Interesting because I'm sure Win98SE actually said it need to install below the 8Gb boundary. I am pretty sure it said it needed to install in a primary partition too. If you got it working good on you!

Having said that - something odd is going on on your hard disk ... you are only supposed to be able to have 4 primary partitions (and that includes the extended partition which holds the logical partition). according to your diagram above you have 6 primary partitions plus an extended partition! If that is the case it isn't normal and must have been set up in an unusual way ???

[wolf.b]

Hi Carol Haynes,

well the way I see it is this: You (I, rather) can have any number of primary partitions on a hard disk, that you (I) like. But you are (I am) limited to mention a maximum of 4 of those inside the master boot record's partition table. The laptop that I used when starting to experiment, has got today a total of 20 primary partitions, including one extended partition. On that I have 21 logical drives. I have written a batch file that makes use of the following include file:

Code

/* RECORDS.R */
/* edited by Wolfgang Bernady */

/* -------- Primary Partitions ------------------------------------------ */
primary:
   Password	= "01 01 00 06 EF 3F 00 3F 00 00 00 D1 3A 00 00"
   BootMan	= "00 01 01 06 EF 3F 01 10 3B 00 00 10 3B 00 00"
   BootCD	= "00 01 02 06 EF 3F 02 20 76 00 00 10 3B 00 00"
   Zyl_03	= "00 01 03 06 EF 3F 03 30 B1 00 00 10 3B 00 00"
   Zyl_04	= "00 01 04 06 EF 3F 04 40 EC 00 00 10 3B 00 00"
   Boot50	= "00 01 05 06 EF 3F 05 50 27 01 00 10 3B 00 00"
   Boot622	= "00 01 06 06 EF 3F 06 60 62 01 00 10 3B 00 00"
   Boot710	= "00 01 07 06 EF 3F 07 70 9D 01 00 10 3B 00 00"
   Win311	= "00 01 08 06 EF 3F 0F 80 D8 01 00 80 D8 01 00"
   Zyl_16	= "00 01 10 06 EF 3F 17 00 B1 03 00 80 D8 01 00"
   Zyl_24	= "00 01 18 06 EF 3F 1F 80 89 05 00 80 D8 01 00"
   Zyl_32	= "00 01 20 06 EF 3F 27 00 62 07 00 80 D8 01 00"
   Zyl_40	= "00 01 28 06 EF 3F 2F 80 3A 09 00 80 D8 01 00"
   Zyl_48	= "00 01 30 06 EF 3F 37 00 13 0B 00 80 D8 01 00"
   Booter	= "00 01 38 06 EF 3F 3F 80 EB 0C 00 80 D8 01 00"
   Boot		= "00 01 40 06 EF 3F 47 00 C4 0E 00 80 D8 01 00"
   MiniWin	= "00 01 48 06 EF 3F 8C 80 9C 10 00 50 EB 0F 00"
   Internet	= "00 01 8D 06 EF 7F 16 D0 87 20 00 A0 D6 1F 00"
   Erweitert	= "00 41 17 0F EF FF FF 70 5E 40 00 D0 CE D7 01"
   SaveToDisk	= "EF FF FF A0 EF FF FF 40 2D 18 02 30 62 04 00"
return

/* -------- Logical Partitions ------------------------------------------ */
logical:
   Dateien	=  4218480
   E		=  5624640
   F		=  5639760
   G		=  5654880
   H		=  5670000
   I		=  5685120
   J		=  5700240
   K		=  5715360
   L		=  5730480
   M		=  5745600
   N		=  5760720
   O		=  5775840
   P		=  5790960
   Q		=  5806080
   Werkbank	=  5821200
   Win98	=  7907760
   Spiele	=  9994320
   Erwin	= 12080880
   Freigabe	= 14167440
   Goodies	= 16254000
   Hilfe	= 33052320
return

/* ---------------------------------------------------------------------- */

The first section is a collection of those 15 bytes per partition that I need to remember to mention it in the MBR. My little tool can be called like this

Code

patchmbr 1 Boot710 Leer Erweitert SaveToDisk

I this example it will take the strings from the variables Boot710, Leer, Erweitert, SaveToDisk (as defined in records.r), then prepend "80 " to the string No 1, then prepend "00 " to the other strings. Finally it calls DEBUG.EXE to update the MBR using redirection, like this:
"debug < %TEMP\$debug$.dbg > NUL"
Please note that I use 4DOS (open source, freeware) as a primary shell, so this is a valid syntax. I hope I make any sense. I have not translated any variable names from the code to English, but that should not be a problem, I think.


Greetings
Wolf

[Carol Haynes]

Ah - that explains ... but it isn't exactly a standard way to deal with the limitations. Good job though - it's impressive.

[wolf.b]

Thank you Carol Haynes!

This non standard way was somewhat of an religious experience for me (YES, I can see the light !!!), and is not my own idea. I got it from here: The REAL Multi-boot -Trombettworks. When I came across it first time in 1999, Ranish Partition Manager (RPM) did not support 32 primary partitions (version 2.38), like some of the older versions did (don't know which one). Mikhail Ranish does not support RPM any more, but others have taken over the project, and reactivated support for 32 primary partitions (most recent version is 2.44).

Interesting because I'm sure Win98SE actually said it need to install below the 8Gb boundary. I am pretty sure it said it needed to install in a primary partition too.

I am sure it does say so somewhere, but I have not come across it.
Makes me think of a story from my childhood. There was a mama goat and seven child goats. In the house was a grandfather clock (a tall thing with a pendulum in a case and the clock on top). The children were allowed to play anywhere around the house, but they must never go inside the pendulum case of the clock, as that would ruin the clock. Only one of her kids was naughty and was not listening and went inside anyways. One day when mama goat went shopping, a wolf came round to pay a visit. Six of the children where hiding behind the sofa, and some other similar clever places, and got eaten. The naughty child was hiding inside the clock, and survived. (Sorry this is VERY bad English, and I ruined the story merely by telling it).

An other thing that comes to mind is that Win95 without FAT32 support, and Win3.x, could have the 8 GB limitation. But they both run from logical drives without hassle over here. Even DOS can be setup to install on a logical drive (version 6.22).


Greetings
Wolf (no pun intended, I'm a humor-free German)


P.S.: As I always said in self defence: We DO have a sense of humor, only our jokes aren't funny.

[Carol Haynes]

LOL ... now stop apologising for being German ... I'm sure you can tell funny jokes - you just did!

[wolf.b]

Hi Tom

only today I found, that you have started a thread on multibooting already!
Looks like there is a lot left to learn for me about how to use search properly!

[OT] And thanks for your hello on introductory thread. I answer here for the sake of getting the link above in the right place. 


Greetings
Wolf

[tomos]

only today I found, that you have started a thread on multibooting already!

I'd actually forgotten that mainly cause I didnt follow up on it at the time

[wolf.b]

Hi Tom,

have you got any experience using GNU GRUB (Grand Unified Bootloader) or GRUB4DOS? Or anybody else?

GRUB: I have not even been able to get this stage1 and stage2 thing into such a shape to create a boot floppy or an image of that.

GRUB4DOS is at the moment an entry in my boot.ini which is able to go back to ntldr menu, when selected. There is a lot to read before I get the hang of it. But it looks promising.

[Armando]

I my experience, Grub works pretty well. What are you trying to do exactly ?

[wolf.b]

Hi Armando,

Long version

I have the general goal to write my own boot manager, or to be able to use an existing boot manager which can:
1.) overwrite a particular entry in MBR's partition table with a new entry, that is read from a list that I supply. I have done that using debug.exe successfully. Ranish PM can do that, but is limited to 32 entries.
2.) enumerate all entries in an extended partition table and change the partition type eg from FAT32 to hidden FAT or to unformatted, or even delete the selected partition. At the moment, gdisk.exe can do that in batch mode.

With GRUB, my initial goal is to find out what it can do and to experiment with it. I would like to have a floppy disk that I could use on an old laptop or on a virtual machine. So far my efforts were failures. I have done something like:

Code

command /c copy /b stage1 + stage2 grub.flp

then write grub.flp to floppy using rawwrite. Result: BIOS POST messages on screen as normal, then screen goes black, then error message displayed at the top of screen: "Error!". I patched my grub.flp like this:

Code

command /c copy /b grub.flp + bytes.f6 grub.ima

where bytes.f6 is a file that consits entirely of hex value F6. It's size was so that the resulting grub.ima was 1,747,560 bytes in size. Then again rawwrite grub.ima to floppy. Result: BIOS POST messages on screen as normal, then screen goes black, then error message displayed at the top of screen: "Error!"

I was expecting to get a GRUB menu with the ability to manually add/edit new entries. I have found GRUB4DOS and am able to see a menu with edit options. Unfortunately GRUB4DOS lacks documentation, but if I understand the article Experience of Using Grub For DOS correctly, knowing how to use GRUB will help.

In short: I want a floppy with GRUB installed.

Now please don't misunderstand the above. I don't ask anybody to do it for me. I will do all the necessary reading myself, not only because it is a topic that interests me since many years. I suspect that my floppy is not all that bad, maybe it lacks just something like menu.lst somewhere. But it is beyond my capabilities to fix it. Reading is going slowly, confusing at times. A little hint how to create the floppy correctly would be much appreciated.


Greetings
Wolf

[Armando]

Ok, I admit that this usage of grub is a bit too technical for me. But, yes, a "menu.lst" seems compulsory. There are many many pages on GRUB. Have you read that : http://www.troubleshooters.com/linux/grub/grub.htm#_Making_a_Simple_grub_Booter_Floppy ?

[wolf.b]

Thank you very much for that link. It says somewhere near the top of the page:

The state of grub's documentation is such that you can't figure it out unless you already know grub.
That catch 22 is the very purpose of this document. This document will to give you enough grub expertise ...

This document is for Lunix users only. I think that gave me the last bit of encouragement, that was needed to go ahead and install (x)ubuntu on my hard drive. Version 7.10 has been released just 9 days ago.



Greetings
Wolf

Edit: Also I learned from your link, that I should have been expecting a grub command line interface (prompt) rather than a menu.
Langsam ernährt sich das Eichhörnchen.

[Armando]

I wouldn't go for xubuntu if I was you -- I've heard that xubuntu is partially broken. I'd just install Ubuntu -- unless you have a very old machine (less than 256mb RAM). In anycase, try the live CDs, maybe, and see for yourself.

[wolf.b]

Thanks for the hint, Armando!
I have downloaded the ISO images already and found that the CDs do not run on my virtual machine.
So I just burn them for real and see how it goes. BTW is the file ubuntu-7.10-desktop-i386.iso the correct version to be used as a live CD?

[Armando]

So I just burn them for real and see how it goes.

IMHO, this is the simplest way to do it.

BTW is the file ubuntu-7.10-desktop-i386.iso the correct version to be used as a live CD?

If your CPU is 32-bit, yes, it should be.
If for some reasons, the Live CD doesn't function properly (X doesn't start, etc.), you can always try installing Ubuntu with the alternate desktop CD. It's not a Live CD and uses a text-based installer.

But first, try the Live CD, and look in the Ubuntu forums if X doesn't start or something like that. In many cases, it's not that hard to fix and it's much less risky than installing a new OS on your hard drive.

[wolf.b]

Yes, I think my CPU is 32-bit, When I am finished with it it may well be 128 bits though 
I stick with the non-X ubuntu, but I am not sure about me being able to cope with a text-based installer. I have got vast experience with VMware Browser Appliance (I started it about 5 times  ), which is based on ubuntu. So if i am not posting anything from now til Christmas, I will post again after Christmas from inside new hardware secondary to my 32 to 128 bit conversion. Just kidding.

[Armando]

I stick with the non-X ubuntu, but I am not sure about me being able to cope with a text-based installer.

I'm not sure I get what you mean by that...

There's no "non X" Ubuntu per se. Only 1- a live CD version (which you can try by booting from the cd, and then later instal on your hard drive with a graphical interface, if you wish), and a version with a text based installer that you can't try first.

Like I said, try the live cd first (it's the iso you've douwnloaded). Then, if that doesn't work, you could always try the alternate desktop CD by installing Ubuntu directly to your hard drive.

PS : just in case there is some extra confusion : Xubuntu is another thing, and the name that has nothing to do with X per se. It's just a specific Ubuntu distribution (like Kubuntu, edubuntu, etc.) which is configured to use the xfce desktop environment.

[wolf.b]

I am very happy to announce that this post is send from Ubuntu OS that I have started from a live CD, about 5 minutes after I burned it to CD. Thanks to Armando, who has pointed out that the desktop i386 distribution is actually a live CD. I have a monitor with 1680x1050 resolution and every single pixel is supported. And I heard some melody coming from my speakers during the boot process. [Edit: obviously my LAN works as well]

Armando, thank you for your tip. When I said "Non-X" Ubuntu I meant: Ubuntu as opposed to Xubuntu, following your advice. Sorry for that, I know that X is a very often used term in the Linux world. Just a beginner talking here.


Greetings
Wolf