Author Topic: Avoid: Jriver Media Center, if you believe in your right of free speech (Read 27,143 times)

urlwolf · « **on:** August 21, 2007, 04:31 PM »

NOTE: I think this section should use evidence (links, screenshots, etc) of the behavior we are dennouncing;

THE PROBLEM: people cannot speak freely in a public forum. If you critisize the product, you are banned. If you mention a competing product, same thing. If you suggest an alternative database (freedb) same thing). etc. The moderators there have no sense of human rights, and for that reason, I will not support their product.

Example (from MediaMonkey forum):
http://www.mediamonkey.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=19990&highlight=

Quote

BTW : I've just been banished form River's forum because I was talking about MediaMonkey and its 'auto-tag from Amazon' feature. This is really sad, now I won't certainly not give any money to them.
Quote:
you are banned from using this forum!
Mediamonkey posts belong on their forum.

THere are more examples scattered around the net (e.g., at last.fm forums). Even though the product is good, they have alienated many customers like me (won't upgrade), and I hope DC forumites agree that it is in their best interest not to support a software company that tries to 'bias' what their users/potential customers see in their public forums.

Cpilot · « **Reply #1 on:** August 21, 2007, 04:46 PM »

Why do you believe that you have an expectation of free speech on a venue that someone else is paying for?
Someone who pays for the web space and bandwidth on a server has a right to determine what they'll allow or not allow, a free speech violation is when the government tells someone what they can allow/disallow on a forum, not what the owner determines his forum is for.
I think most people would expect a forum that is set up to discuss a specific commercial product would be biased towards that product.
It wouldn't be financially prudent for the people selling the product to have postings of other cheaper priced or free products littered around their forum.

Tekzel · « **Reply #2 on:** August 21, 2007, 05:37 PM »

Quote from: Cpilot on August 21, 2007, 04:46 PM

a free speech violation is when the government tells someone what they can allow/disallow on a forum, not what the owner determines his forum is for.

I felt I should repeat the point Cpilot already made, because it bears repeating and MANY people seem to be confused about constitutes free speech and what is a "human right" and what is not. In a private forum paid for by a private individual or company, you have no rights to free speech or even access to it. They can ban you just because they don't like you. And, this is as it should be. If they are too heavy handed, they will piss people off and suffer the consequences. The people, the consumer, will punish them as necessary.

Now what does constitute free speech issues, is the government telling you what you can and can not say. Mostly. There are also situations where they can censor you too. For instance, the FCC telling broadcast networks they can't allow broadcasts with f-bombs. I don't know all the various rules, but if you think about it, it is the government telling private individuals what they can and not say. It is much more difficult for the government to censor you than private individuals, thanks to the constitution. Man, I bet people in the government really hate that document.

Darwin · « **Reply #3 on:** August 21, 2007, 07:02 PM »

OK. I'm glad we've gotten the definition of "free speech" and "human rights" out of our systems, out into the open, and hope that we can move on... Semantics aside, Urwolf, though regrettably invoking a term or two that are not perhaps applicable here, has posted about an issue that is pertinent and important and should be discussed:

Hostility and intolerance toward the mere mention of a competitor's product or toward a whiff of criticism toward the product being discussed, while well within the rights of the person/people/organisation paying for the forum, are hardly tactics that invite open discussion and a warm cuddly feeling of loyalty toward the product. Further (and more importantly), it sets up an environment in which bugs go unreported, novel feature suggestions go un-suggested and no one dares mention that the latest version of a competitor's product just introduced a killer new feature and wouldn't it be great if it could be included in JRiver, etc.

Well, really! WTF is the point of a users' forum if not to raise these kinds of issues? Sounds like the developers have just created a "love-in" for their product and are not interested in improving it or, for that matter, developing it. Yawn.

I, in turn, am not interested in using applications for which my participation in the development process is actually discouraged.

Thanks for bringing this to our attention, urlwolf!

KenR · « **Reply #4 on:** August 21, 2007, 07:11 PM »

Far be it from me to speak for ANYONE, but I think there are really two issues here. One is free speech as a constitutional right to cricize public officials who must ultimately answer to the people in a democracy.

The second issue is really about candor and honesty. This is not the first time that J. River's forum has been brought up, for doing things from deleting posts to criticizing its users. While they are not obligated to allow any particular posts, then it is no longer a forum as we would think of it. As far as I know, they put up no information about what people can post, they simply criticize and get rid of what they don't want. Also, I have never heard of any other forum doing this, so we certainly can't say it's common practice and expected behavior.

Ken

Lashiec · « **Reply #5 on:** August 21, 2007, 07:38 PM »

Wether Jriver had the rights to censor things or not (empty discussion I think), what they do is not only inexcusable, but also pretty foolish. In a age when even big companies try to appeal the customer by hearing their requests (read, I said "hearing" not "applying them right away"), doing this is not only bad for its software (we'll implement what we wish) but also for their public image. Who is going to buy something for them with that kind of attitude? Sheesh, it's only a feature request, spar my life, ruthless master! It's not like a front attack to their product. If they really can't stand simple requests and customer criticism, maybe they have a problem within their support department or with human relationships as well

Grorgy · « **Reply #6 on:** August 21, 2007, 08:41 PM »

AT LEast they still have a forum, even though it may not be the best, my ISP DEcided too many nasty things were being said on their forum about them so they closed it. unfortunately, unlike media players there is not a lot of choice in ISP where I live

Cpilot · « **Reply #7 on:** August 21, 2007, 08:42 PM »

I'm not arguing whether their policies are moral, ethical or even if I personally care about it.
My point is that it's somewhat spacious for someone to go to anothers paid for website and expect them to allow any postings whatsoever and if they don't declare it a violation of "free speech".
I notice there isn't any viagra, porn or "male enhancement" posts here, and yet no one sees that as a violation of "free speech", I'm sure the spammers would like to be able to make a "free speech" argument also.
Like it or not the owner of a forum or website is entitled to determine it's content.
If users don't like the way it's administered they are free to go elsewhere.

Darwin · « **Reply #8 on:** August 21, 2007, 10:45 PM »

Quote

My point is that it's somewhat spacious for someone to go to anothers paid

spacious, specious - who's really paying attention... Certainly not me. I'd be the last person to start arguing semantics here!

Sorry, couldn't resist!

Cpilot · « **Reply #9 on:** August 21, 2007, 11:14 PM »

Quote from: Darwin on August 21, 2007, 10:45 PM

Quote
My point is that it's somewhat spacious for someone to go to anothers paid

spacious, specious - who's really paying attention... Certainly not me. I'd be the last person to start arguing semantics here!

Sorry, couldn't resist!

Yeah well, what's an e or a among friends?

Darwin · « **Reply #10 on:** August 21, 2007, 11:19 PM »

lanux128 · « **Reply #11 on:** August 22, 2007, 03:05 AM »

from a DC perspective, i wonder how many times mouser had to listen to comparisons to other launchers, screenshot programs and etc.. in fact, i've made several references myself..

Darwin · « **Reply #12 on:** August 22, 2007, 04:32 AM »

Quote from: lanux128 on August 22, 2007, 03:05 AM

from a DC perspective, i wonder how many times mouser had to listen to comparisons to other launchers, screenshot programs and etc.. in fact, i've made several references myself..

True, as have I. However, mouser actually encourages people to post about alternatives to his products as he likes to see how other developers resolve the problems that he is attempting to solve. He also encourages people to post about their reactions to other apps, and what they prefer about other apps so that he can get a better sense of what people are looking for, respond to, etc. It's his attitude and approach that has brought knocking on 84,000 people (and growing daily) to this site.

Grorgy · « **Reply #13 on:** August 22, 2007, 07:18 AM »

Shouldn't the first criteria of choosing any software be - does it do what i want it to do and do it well? If the answer is yes then company policy on forums would seem to be a relatively minor point, I seem to remember posts about some vendors who charge for placing bug reports, doesn't make me think very kind thoughts about them, but if they make what you need then thats where you gotta go surely?

app103 · « **Reply #14 on:** August 22, 2007, 07:49 AM »

I am not going to comment on the whole free speech/censorship concepts because my views & feelings on that subject do not belong on this forum.

But the complaint you have made about their forum has left some questions unanswered in my mind:

1. Do they ban polite constructive criticism? or all criticism?

Polite: I really love your product and recommend it to all my friends. But there is one feature I think could be improved a little...

Not polite: I think your product sucks because.....

2. About the mention of other products...
Do they ban anything mentioning another product? or only comments that compare their product and rate the other product as better? or comments that just praise the other product and don't even mention a comparison? or only posts with links to their competitor's sites?

3. Are they banning bug reports and posts by confused users looking for help using their product?

Darwin · « **Reply #15 on:** August 22, 2007, 12:59 PM »

Grorgy - good points. However, in this case there is a wealth of choice in both FOSS and shareware.

Good points as well, app, and I did wonder about those issues too. However, a thought has occurred to me - is the forum policed by the developers or by users? If it's users, this is unfortunate but not the fault of the development team. What happens if you e-mail support with bug reports, feature requests, etc.? Just curious.

lanux128 · « **Reply #16 on:** August 23, 2007, 01:52 AM »

actually there is a simple approach.. unless the software is bundled or absolutely necessary to run a hardware (JRiver sounds like mp3 player, i'm not sure). one can always post a note like this and move on, just like urlwolf had done.. in the long run, the devs are the losers.. just my 2¢..

edbro · « **Reply #17 on:** October 26, 2007, 06:45 PM »

They have taken notice:
http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=43107.0

KenR · « **Reply #18 on:** October 26, 2007, 07:54 PM »

For those interested, this was my reply to the thread:

http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=43107.msg294085#msg294085

Ken

Ralf Maximus · « **Reply #19 on:** October 26, 2007, 08:17 PM »

Quote from: KenR on October 26, 2007, 07:54 PM

For those interested, this was my reply to the thread: http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=43107.msg294085#msg294085

Am I mistaken, or when he "looked at your posts" was he seeing the stuff the moderators DIDN'T axe?

As far as the whole "free speech" thing goes, on corporate/private systems anything can be deleted for any reason, without explanation. It's their servers & resources, so they can do anything they please.

But it's not SMART. One person's thoughtful/emotional message can be read by others as a senseless frothing rant. Squelching comments because they're "too negative" or "don't contribute anything" is a slippery slope that leads to user distrust.

My take on this specific situation is that the moderators' intentions are pure, but they are paranoid about protecting their reputation & company. By deleting all that they find offensive they present a squeaky-clean image on their forums, but forget that the internet is a very big place. Unhappy customers will post elsewhere (like, here) and google sees all.

Ultimately their activites will backfire. It looks like it's already started...

KenR · « **Reply #20 on:** October 27, 2007, 05:16 PM »

Hey all,

I made an oversight in my initial J. River post (see link above) that communicated something that was both untrue and unfair. This is the post I made to correct the matter: http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=43107.msg294168#msg294168. If you read my initial post, please read this post to see my clarification.

This thread on the J. River site has become a really interesting discussion. I would encourage everyone who has experience with the forum to communicate it to that community by making a post in this thread. I know some of you have very strong feelings about the site. This is your chance to express them.

Ken

Hirudin · « **Reply #21 on:** November 27, 2008, 12:21 PM »

Hmmm... I've been using Media Center as my daily media player for a few weeks now, I'm very happy with some of the features and have been very annoyed by the lack of some features... I can't seem to find a media player that does everything I want, and does it well (I'm trying to find something my mom can use).

Anyway, I thought I'd mention a post I made on the Media Center forum that mentions a couple competing programs (foobar2000 and Mp3tag) and I mention that the other programs work better. It's been a year since the last post in this thread, maybe they've changed their ways.

Here's the post