Author Topic: Is there a better way to handle Gri's posts? (Read 63,410 times)

Wordzilla · « **on:** January 21, 2007, 07:03 AM »

The poll on "Do you think Gri's posts should be allowed here any more?" has been removed and I have changed to subject of this topic to:

Is there a better way to handle Gri's posts?

Original poll:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Quote

poll: Do you think Gri's posts should be allowed here any more?

Thank you for viewing/participating in this poll.

For a self-explanatory reason why this poll is here:
Gri's posts in this forum section (SMF Forum Mods)

To know more about Gri:
Gri's profile
Gri's own Forum - "Grivitation Space of the Earth"

To see why I do not think Gri's posts should be allowed here any more, check out my post here:
Re: First Valid Signature of Life Satisfaction

As you know we don't currently have established & published forum rules/guilelines, do you think we are in (urgent) need of such pages here?

How should we work hard to make DonationCoder forum a better place for everyone (while defending free speech)?

Please feel absolutely free to post your comment below and we need you help!

(also please keep in mind that this poll is not created against Gri, but only his/her posts. Drama / flaming is seriously frowned upon.)

Sincerely,
Anderson

It was a bit controversial as it turned out and might not have been appropriate from the beginning. (If you have found the poll to be annoying, please accept my sincere apologies)

DonationCoder.com is growing and becoming a huge, comprehensive site. The possibility of people here (esp. moderators) facing difficult situations (like this discussion on Gri' posts) is thus increasing.

1. Do you think we are in (urgent) need of forum rules/guilelines here? (as you know we don't yet officially have them)

2. How should we work hard to keep everything here in the spirit of DonationCoder and make this site a better place for everyone?

Thanks!

tsaint · « **Reply #1 on:** January 21, 2007, 08:01 AM »

Mobysaurus,
let me start by saying I 100% agree with you re the nature of this community.
However, I got the idea that you had 2 basic concerns, that
1. you couldn't understand Gri's posts and
2. they weren't helpful.
(from those 2 concerns flowed the "lack of respect" you mentioned.)
With regard to 1. :Seems very dangerous in principle to ban people because you don't understand what they're saying. (I just got back from visiting family in law for 4 weeks in singapore and most of the time couldn't understand them cos the buggers only speak chinese!!) Also sometimes I have trouble understanding posts here but that's because of my lack of technical expertise most likely.

With regard to 2. Posts need not only be helpful, surely. They may be amusing for example.

Is it a case of "but they're always the same"? ... then what should the threshold be when the helpful-understandable:non-helpful-nonunderstandable ratio becomes unacceptable.
This sorta leads in my mind to a big problem.

Finally, it seems to me a matter of balancing Gri's right to post against the danger posed to the DC community. In this instance I can't see that there's a big danger. I've come across a couple of posts which gave me really bad vibes (as in geez, sounds like a mean spirited/nasty person), but the posters seemed to disappear. Gri's posts don't seem to have that quality.
Sorry I'm not more eloquent.
thanks
tony
ps
- I read some of Gri's writing - too mentally lazy to nut it all out - but got the impression that some things he/she said were quite sensible
- A thought - the DC community seems to have caring, helpful, tolerant values - doesn't banning someone somehow diminish those values?
- even if Gri were found to be on the outer limits of eccentricity, haven't we got room to adopt him/her as our very own eccentric?

Wordzilla · « **Reply #2 on:** January 21, 2007, 08:28 AM »

Take this topic of Gri's for example:

http://www.donationcoder.com/forum/index.php?topic=6997.0

Most folks here might not be interested in SMF Forum Mods at all, presumably.

It's true, tell Me to peruse books on assembly language or even on C++! Sure I'll get immediately turned off by all these "geeky", 150-IQ-required stuff - but I won't get annoyed because my incapability to understand them does not matter since other people will find them useful.

I don't think this theory can also be applied to Gri's posts here in the same way.

You'll see what I meant by "being (almost completely) disrespectful": always self-quoting/self-linking, providing no useful info (at least from my view), cryptic language.

Every time such a topic/post get posted, it appears on the main board page of our forum and people click it, try to figure out these cr**, get annoyed and leave. What the exact point of having such stuff in our community?

I'm a young college student, and I'm no genius; there are lots of stuff I'm not able to understand and I know it pretty well. I asked that Gri be banned not because I could not understand his posts, but because these like-spamming activities.

- Anderson

app103 · « **Reply #3 on:** January 21, 2007, 08:34 AM »

See my post here:

http://www.donationcoder.com/forum/index.php?topic=6927.msg49672#msg49672

Then see in gri's words, that I am correct, here:

http://www.donationcoder.com/forum/index.php?topic=7063.msg49702#msg49702

Or maybe I should adopt gri's linking style?

CodeTRUCKER · « **Reply #4 on:** January 21, 2007, 08:40 AM »

History is repugnantly rife with the record of what happened to those that were listening to the beat of a different drummer. Many times history eventually vindicated them and negated the validity of the accepted mores that they were persecuted under. I am not saying that Cody's Home is that intolerant. Given that I (an unabashed man of Faith) am so welcome here (a place of unabashed Atheism), we are certainly above the bell curve.

My concern is I am "hearing" seeds, "flavors," if you will, of types of verbiage that faintly remind me of less desirable attributes distantly akin to history's errors. Sometimes it is not what is be measured that is in error, but the measuring stick itself. We must tread softly.

Andersen, I admire your spunk and passion for what is so special here at DC. Do not fret. In time these qualities, once matured, will serve an audience much vaster than what you can now envision. Seeds of greatness lie within you.

CodeTRUCKER · « **Reply #5 on:** January 21, 2007, 08:49 AM »

We also need to be careful that we don't scare people away either because we are perceived to be supremacist head-hunters. Regardless of the validity/invalidity of their judgements, we must be cautious to guard how we are perceived by those that will judge. As you stated in your post, you are young and I perceive your passion for the sanctity of the great treasure we all share here, but if I may, I might suggest that we let the sagacious leadership of DonationCoder exercise the strengths we know so well and that has caused us to grow to respect them like we do. We are in good, capable, sober and strong hands.

Perhaps the reason no action has been taken by those with power is that they have yet to determine if Gri is a problem or a solution. They are having to discern whether we should respect or ignore. I, for one, respect being cautious and willing to "take another look," which is the very meaning of "respect," (but you already knew that). I do recognize your points and the patterns presented do have something to say. I hope we all hear it correctly.

Wordzilla · « **Reply #6 on:** January 21, 2007, 09:23 AM »

Quote from: Farmsteader on January 21, 2007, 08:49 AM

We also need to be careful that we don't scare people away either because we are perceived to be supremacist head-hunters. Regardless of the validity/invalidity of their judgements, we must be cautious to guard how we are perceived by those that will judge. As you stated in your post, you are young and I perceive your passion for the sanctity of the great treasure we all share here, but if I may, I might suggest that we let the sagacious leadership of DonationCoder exercise the strengths we know so well and that has caused us to grow to respect them like we do. We are in good, capable, sober and strong hands.

I could not agree any more with you, Farmsteader. Perfect points you've made and I really should not have made such comments. Lessons learned.

(my original comment strikethroughed.

)

- Anderson

tsaint · « **Reply #7 on:** January 21, 2007, 10:44 AM »

Calvin, I was responding to Anderson's points where those I mentioned were posed as problems.
I can't speak to those you raised because I haven't attempted to engage him in any conversation.
Guess the only thing I could possibly say is we all have to co-exist with people we don't like, or whose bearing/manner we find a bit "off".
I like your sagacious leadership comment!
tony

mouser · « **Reply #8 on:** January 21, 2007, 11:33 AM »

I love Anderson but tsaint's words captured my feelings exactly.

We have prided ourself here on being able to find unconvential solutions to our challenges - and in getting along.

The idea of "not allowing" someone to post who isn't trying to be malicious and isn't deliberately trying to break rules seems not at all in our spirit.

Not to mention the fact that I like gri.. He is just different. His posts are about SMF forum stuff, and he is posting in the SMF forum section.

I understand the concern Anderson has, which is the gri is posting stuff that is not quite comprehensible to the smf section, and may start posting more and more new threads. It might be comparable to if he was posting in another language that no one can read.

If anything needs to be done it might simply be to ask gri to do the same thing we ask everyone to do, which is not start a new thread when posting replies on an existing gri thread might be more appropriate in order to not create so many threads. I can see that Anderson's concern is only that having these posts that people don't understand might confuse people, especially new visitors.

If gri were posting tons of posts all over *all* sections of the forum that no one could understand then we would ask him to stop (note i still think it's inappropriate to talk of "disallowing" people to post until things really degenerate and no one will listen to reason).

This kind of thing happens all the time when situation of someone who loves their community (Anderson) being a bit too quick on the draw and being a bit too overprotective. I've seen it a lot when mods on a forum become hyper-vigilent and things tend to go up in flames. Thankfully there are some wise folks like me and tony who can take things a little slower and calm the waters

So - i'm going to remove the poll and leave this thread for us to discuss. If there is some guidelines that we would like to come up with that might address anderson's concerns regarding gri, i welcome there discussion.

I would also remind people once more that you can set certain sections of the forum that you want to ignore. The SMF section of our forum is really pretty esoteric and you wouldn't be missing much by marking is as ignore if gri's posts get to you.

i love this comment from tsaint:

Quote

even if Gri were found to be on the outer limits of eccentricity, haven't we got room to adopt him/her as our very own eccentric?

well said. we are a family here and surely we can find a way to be a crazy family and make room for anyone who is trying in good faith to be part of it.

CodeTRUCKER · « **Reply #9 on:** January 21, 2007, 11:39 AM »

Here, here! I can personally vouch for the acceptance so freely given here at DC. Very well put.

I, too, have noticed the particular flair tsaint has with his words. His verbiage actually stimulates thought patterns I had never considered before. As a writer, I have become acutely sensitive to "how" different people form their words and I am the better for it! But, I digress...

mouser · « **Reply #10 on:** January 21, 2007, 11:57 AM »

I just think it's important to remember there may be people who one doesn't like, doesn't get along with, etc. But I think we would do well to think of this as a family. If you really can't get along with someone, you seek ways to avoid them, you don't ban them from the family gathering.

And if you are smart you might event try to find ways to appreciate their eccentricities, even if you can't stand sitting next to them at the dinner table.

I don't want anyone to think that they are going to be banned here if they start taking positions that I or other people here don't approve of - I think it's important for all of us here to feel like we are in this together, and no one is going to be "banned" from this forum unless they are damn well maliciously deteremined to cause so much damage as to force that to happen.

jgpaiva · « **Reply #11 on:** January 21, 2007, 12:23 PM »

My opinion is that Gri is an amusing guy. If not for his interesting way of speaking (which i even consider curious and try to understand), at least for his capacity of intriguing us all.
Truth is, that Gri has been an interesting topic of conversation for some time now. I've seen mouser and app discussing the way he talks (and i've participated in those discussions myself), i've seen people wondering where he's from, if he uses an automatic translation, etc..
Don't think i don't see your points, Calvin and Anderson. I specially agree with you, Calvin, in that there must be some kind of conversation and Gri must respect the laws of the forum (he should at least not open a thread with a single line that is a link to somewhere else).
So, i'm not in favour of deleting his older posts nor baning him from the forum. But i think you (Calvin) had a good idea when you made that big post. I honestly hope he'll answer it, as it'd take many doubts away.
I find it interesting to learn about these new cultures and minds, but it's true that with Gri, we're not really learning anything, we're just making conjectures about a bunch of stuff, and we never get any confirmation if what we assume is right.
My opinion is that discussion is important, and so are the posts made in the other threads, so that Gri can understand that we think something is wrong, and he should work in the way of respecting us.
Now let's hope that he'll just show some sign of life and understanding and we can live happily ever after

CodeTRUCKER · « **Reply #12 on:** January 21, 2007, 12:50 PM »

I am gratified I can contribute on a meaningful level. Thank you (and others) for your kind words.

CodeTRUCKER · « **Reply #13 on:** January 21, 2007, 01:24 PM »

Quote from: mouser on January 21, 2007, 11:33 AM

...
So - i'm going to remove the poll and leave this thread for us to discuss. If there is some guidelines that we would like to come up with that might address anderson's concerns regarding gri, i welcome there discussion.

I would also remind people once more that you can set certain sections of the forum that you want to ignore. The SMF section of our forum is really pretty esoteric and you wouldn't be missing much by marking is as ignore if gri's posts get to you.

I find an interesting contradiction here...
On the one hand you defend Gri's place to post on DC and strongly deny that his posts will be censored/removed even to apologizing for Anderson's method of criticizing Gri, but you then make a unilateral (AFAIK) action of "censoring" Mobysaurus's post by clipping it and changing the subject in the name of "tolerance." Why are the expressions of distaste and disdain from a bitter heart more sacrosanct than the alarmed passion of a sweeter one?

History has a library of lessons about the dangers of "tolerance." Please be careful.

Wordzilla · « **Reply #14 on:** January 21, 2007, 01:41 PM »

Quote from: Farmsteader on January 21, 2007, 01:24 PM

I find an interesting contradiction here...
On the one hand you defend Gri's place to post on DC and strongly deny that his posts will be censored/removed even to apologizing for Anderson's method of criticizing Gri, but you then make a unilateral (AFAIK) action of "censoring" Mobysaurus's post by clipping it and changing the subject in the name of "tolerance." Why are the expressions of distaste and disdain from a bitter heart more sacrosanct than the alarmed passion of a sweeter one?

History has a library of lessons about the dangers of "tolerance." Please be careful.

Hah, Farmsteader, that must have been a huge misunderstanding

(not your fault, since I didnt make this clearer)

I gave this whole thing a big second thought after mouser's reply and I edited it myself (well he did request that the topic be changed but I should do it anyway).

So it's not true that mouser modified my post (he never did such a terrible thing to me AFAIK

) and I really don't think he would modify anyone's post here even if he gets very annoyed.

Love you guys all!

mouser · « **Reply #15 on:** January 21, 2007, 01:45 PM »

It also might help to put all this in perspective to know that Anderson actually messaged me after he posted the original poll, and before I had seen it, to ask me if he thought he may have gone a bit too far in posting the poll, and asking if i thought he should remove it, so there really isn't any internal disagreement here - i think everyone is left yet again feeling like the dc community has shown why it's a nice place to hang out

CodeTRUCKER · « **Reply #16 on:** January 21, 2007, 02:05 PM »

Whew! That's a relief! As a demo, Moby, take a look back at my post. It has been modified and you can do it too, unless Mouser has restricted you to your room for forgetting your manners!

Actually, I am gratified that it turned out this way otherwise the perception I had would have been perpetuated unknowingly. Somehow things just work out at DC. I hope this holds true for Gri.

Wordzilla · « **Reply #17 on:** January 21, 2007, 02:42 PM »

Quote from: Farmsteader on January 21, 2007, 02:05 PM

Whew! That's a relief! As a demo, Moby, take a look back at my post. It has been modified and you can do it too, unless Mouser has restricted you to your room for forgetting your manners! Actually, I am gratified that it turned out this way otherwise the perception I had would have been perpetuated unknowingly. Somehow things just work out at DC. I hope this holds true for Gri.

LOL, that was hilarious!

You know mouser was gonna

had I not replied in time!

app103 · « **Reply #18 on:** January 21, 2007, 04:21 PM »

Quote from: tsaint on January 21, 2007, 08:01 AM

- even if Gri were found to be on the outer limits of eccentricity, haven't we got room to adopt him/her as our very own eccentric?

If we got rid of all the eccentrics on this forum, would we have anybody left? (me included)

btw...gri might be a bit bitter, but his bitterness is not directed at this forum. He actually likes it here...or he wouldn't post at all.

His bitterness lies in what he has learned from other forums about how intolerant people can be. This has caused him to take measures to protect what he has to say from being deleted.

If his bitterness was directed towards DonationCoder, he wouldn't be posting here, and we would be a warning comment in his signature at other forums and he would 'ban' himself from here.

That being said, I like gri. He both amuses and intrigues me. He has some rather unique and cool ideas, that I have noticed in his own forum.

His blogs section and public email for example...very novel. I think if I were to start another forum for my chat community, I would probably add something like that to it....at least the blogs section. It is similar to the personal area here, except that everyone can read it, subscribe to it, but only the author can post replies to it....with each author having their own personal thread to speak what's on their mind and write articles.

Imagine if we had something like that here on this forum. Mouser wouldn't be making posts like this one. He would already have articles to use for it.

But it can be a confusing concept, and I don't think it would go over too well here. There is enough confusion for ordinary people that first come here on how to do things already, such as how to get license keys for some of the software. I think the addition of a blog thread section would just be too much for some of us to handle, especially someone that stumbles across this site long after it was implemented.

Yes, gri is eccentric...but we all are, to some degree. He is also creative and intelligent and loves SMF forums and wants to improve them. Maybe something he thinks up next week could be the next big thing. One never knows.

It would be nice if we could somehow convince him that this forum isn't like the others and he doesn't have to fear his posts being deleted by intolerant admins and that he could post freely here without the need to link to his posts on his own forum. He really does want to participate and be part of the community, at least in the SMF section.

f0dder · « **Reply #19 on:** January 21, 2007, 08:47 PM »

I don't really mind gri.

I don't understand a word he says, and I don't really care for his mods. I get a headache if I try to follow what's going on, so I mainly just ignore him. But he doesn't annoy me

(It would, however, annoy me if everybody started using those windings and griviwhateverniks - makes it hard to follow a topics).

brotherS · « **Reply #20 on:** January 21, 2007, 09:07 PM »

Quote from: f0dder on January 21, 2007, 08:47 PM

I don't really mind gri.

I don't mind gri (I'd just prefer he wouldn't post

in this forum), I feel sorry for him. Maybe he had a bad childhood, or something else caused him to have a low self-esteem. Whatever it is, he must have some kind of psychological problem, otherwise he wouldn't act like he does.

Or maybe it's just some university testing some kind of highly flawed AI here...

nudone · « **Reply #21 on:** January 21, 2007, 09:25 PM »

i also have absolutely no idea what gri is going on about. so, should i make the effort to try and understand or just ignore him/her/it?

i get the impression that the machine like gri won't mind either way. i think i'll just ignore it then.

(usually, for a brief period, we pander to the self indulgent desires of someone as we give them the benefit of the doubt. we then learn that we are doing the wrong thing and decide to ignore this self obsessed individual. the individual then usually learns that they need to adapt a more civil approach to there colleagues otherwise their audience is lost forever.)

edit:
having said that. i do like new forms of art and it looks like that is what gri is doing. so, i've changed my mind. i've decided i like the 'artist' that is gri and the new internet artform that it is practising.

CodeTRUCKER · « **Reply #22 on:** January 21, 2007, 10:39 PM »

"Art," huh, very interesting.

nudone · « **Reply #23 on:** January 21, 2007, 10:54 PM »

i think what Gri is doing is art because it's not immediately comprehendable and is probably intentionally ambiguous. it looks to me like it is left to the person 'experiencing' Gri's 'creations' to interpret them as they wish.

there is perhaps no definitive meaning to them maybe they are there to draw attention to Gri. we are part of Gri's artistic experiment - the whole internet is possibly the audience and artform combined. we are participating in Gri's creation, helping to shape it and experiencing it on our own levels. the artist merely creates and it up to us as critics to say what we 'feel' about it.

so far, Gri has successfully managed to stir up an interest and a bit of controversy about his/her/its art work - this is what artists do nowadays.

i just need to know how to purchase Gri's artwork now before it becomes widely sort after. this is the only flaw in Gri's digital creation - it can be replicated precisely without paying a single penny.

edit:
perhaps, it is better to describe Gri as a poet. what i've read so far by Gri resembles some kind of warped techno code poetry - something that i believe not to have been done before(?). like all good things it can take time to appreciate the subtle nuances of the craftmanship and beauty involved.

CodeTRUCKER · « **Reply #24 on:** January 22, 2007, 12:52 AM »

Nudone, the more I think of what you say about "Art," the more a segment of my consciousness tries to grasp something about what Gri is doing that it can not quite get a hold of very well.

If this is a new art form then is this something we should embrace collectively? Probably not. There are many that believe Picasso was a genius, but my tastes say Picasso's real "genius" was making people think he was a genius. Ths is like Bill Gates having a perceived genius that he really is a super-geek. Given he did what he did with coding/OS building he certainly is accomplished, but the real "genius" that built his empire was his marketing abilities.

Still, thinking of Gri's productions as "art" is a cause for pause.