PayPal about to claim rights in all IP sold/licensed using PayPal for payments

[Renegade]

Check #1 here:

https://www.paypal.com/ie/webapps/mpp/ua/upcoming-policies-full?locale.x=GB

Intellectual Property
We are adding a new paragraph to section 1.3., which outlines the licence and rights that you give to us and to the PayPal Group (see paragraph 12 below for the definition of “PayPal Group”) to use content that you post for publication using the Services. A similar paragraph features in the Privacy Policy, which is removed by the addition of this paragraph to the User Agreement. The new paragraph at section 1.3 reads as follows:

“When providing us with content or posting content (in each case for publication, whether on- or off-line) using the Services, you grant the PayPal Group a non-exclusive, worldwide, perpetual, irrevocable, royalty-free, sublicensable (through multiple tiers) right to exercise any and all copyright, publicity, trademarks, database rights and intellectual property rights you have in the content, in any media known now or in the future. Further, to the fullest extent permitted under applicable law, you waive your moral rights and promise not to assert such rights against the PayPal Group, its sublicensees or assignees. You represent and warrant that none of the following infringe any intellectual property right: your provision of content to us, your posting of content using the Services, and the PayPal Group’s use of such content (including of works derived from it) in connection with the Services.”

A few news outlets have picked it up:

https://www.cryptocoinsnews.com/bitcoin-future-paypal-changes-terms-service-take-content/

If you haven’t been following these developments, multi-national businesses are working with governments to take control of internet usage, regulations, and even local government utilities through international treaties like the Trans-Pacific Partnership (TPP). The TPP is being secretly being constructed, without public or legislative consult, and is a massive outline of future controls by businesses on many aspects of your life. You aren;’t supposed to know what lies ahead with the TPP. Search online for more information on the TPP, and check WikiLeaks for more details on what little has been exposed to this attack on freedom. This is clearly a step along these growing lines of corporate fascism.

It looks like PayPal has joined the dark side, but freedom rings within the Bitcoin community, and this just underscores why Bitcoin is here and why it is the future of online technology and business. It’s all about control. Their control. See the link above about their plans for biometric control over your account. Paypal looks ready to confiscate your online content, and your business if you let them. Bitcoin brings power to the people. The choice is yours. Consider yourselves warned.

Is PayPal on a righteous path or are they on the wrong side of history? Do you like owning your content, or can PayPal take it, just because you use their payment service?

More at the link.

https://hax.5july.org/2015/04/25/paypal-joins-the-dark-side/

PayPal joins the Dark Side
...
Whut!?!

And what is “content” supposed to be? PayPal is a payment service. So the only content there is, is the online stuff people and companies sell using PayPal as payment provider. Did PayPal just claim control over all of that?

Paul Joseph Watson chimes in here and here.

But this all seems strange as 15.5 in their current agreement is very similar:

https://www.paypal.com/us/webapps/mpp/ua/useragreement-full

15.5 License Grant from You to PayPal; IP Warranties. Subject to section 15.6, when providing PayPal with content or posting content using PayPal Services, you grant us a non-exclusive, worldwide, perpetual, irrevocable, royalty-free, transferable, and sublicensable (through multiple tiers) right to exercise any and all copyright, publicity, trademarks, database rights and intellectual property rights you have in the content, in any media known now or in the future. Further, to the fullest extent permitted under applicable law, you waive your moral rights and promise not to assert such rights against PayPal, its sublicensees or its assignees. You represent and warrant that none of the following infringe any intellectual property or publicity right: your provision of content to PayPal, your posting of content using the PayPal Services, and PayPal’s use of such content (including of works derived from it) in connection with the PayPal Services.”

Did PayPal just claim ownership in everything they help facilitate a sale for, or what?

[rgdot]

This kind of thing will never work, doesn't matter how they word it or not. I remember a similar case many years ago, trying to remember who it was. Almost similar wording about IP of stuff through their network.

[Deozaan]

What content gets posted to PayPal? AFAIK the only "content" that PayPal facilitates moving from one person to another is money.

Someone selling something using PayPal isn't actually giving the goods to PayPal to disburse to the buyer. So I don't get what all this means.

[SeraphimLabs]

Its funny how this has gone almost completely unnoticed, probably because of how rediculous it is.

Meanwhile the internet is in an uproar over what Steam is up to.

Well the joke's on Valve. I always use paypal when buying from Steam, so they can go kill each other over my purchases I'll just be here playing Age of Empires Gold edition, which I bought nearly 15 years ago and being free from DRM and callhomes still works almost as good as when I bought it. Just gotta load up a VM of Windows 98 to make it run right.

[wraith808]

there is an uproar over steam?

[SeraphimLabs]

Valve and Bethesda have introduced a program where game mods for Skyrim can be purchased from the Steam Workshop, where traditionally game mods for any game have been available for free.

Needless to say this has kicked over the beehive of a game modding community that has been thriving for the past 10 years without any corporate oversight or financial incentives, and the past few days have been rather drama-packed.

Many mod makers have come right out and said they will not use the new service out of principle, and a lot of the mod makers who have joined the dark side and listed their mods with Steam as buyable packages are facing community blacklisting over how quickly they choose to be greedy and demand money for code that has traditionally been free and is part of a complicated spiderweb of dependancies.

The greatest achievement of PC gaming- a platform that can be easily customized to suit a user's taste has been undone overnight, as suddenly the community spirit that has kept it going all these years is shattered by greed and the cold reality of the for profit mindset.

And seeing all this happening, it is so incredibly tempting to instruct paypal to chargeback every purchase I have made on Steam. Steam would of course ban my account for this action, but I would get my money back and Steam would be one returning customer less.

My opinion of the situation is that game mods are a hobby- something you do because you enjoy it and are having fun with it. The minute you start making a profit from it, its a business interest not a hobby, and you have exposed yourself to all kinds of legal problems between taxes, IP rights, and backlash from people who enjoyed what you made that do not want to pay for what they were getting for free.

[wraith808]

If they are a hobby, then why do they hawk their wares asking for donations?  It's just codifying the fact that people put significant investment into these things- even if they are a hobby.  And many gamers think that this time should come for free.

Entitlement is the problem here.

That's why I didn't get it.  The first thing I thought was "Cool!  A way for them to monetize their contributions!"  I guess I was in the minority with that thought process.

There is a platform, Patreon.  And a lot of people are doing a lot of cool things because of people that are willing to donate to the little projects that they do on the side.  And I think that's a cool thing.  Which I guess is the reason that I don't see anything wrong with this.  If you don't want to monetize your contributions... then don't.  But that shouldn't stop those that want to.

[Renegade]

If you don't want to monetize your contributions... then don't.  But that shouldn't stop those that want to.

Stop trying to derail the glorious revolution! 

http://www.reddit.com/r/socialism/comments/33pfoa/as_a_gamer_ive_just_realize_how_important/

What I feared is that Valve's Steam will turned the once socialist free modding community into a capitalistic greedy system that will greatly affect poor gamers like me who barely saved enough money to afford a gaming PC. I am hoping that Valve and Gaben himself will soon realize how awful their system is and will leave modding alone for the community. There is no need for capitalism in modding.

TIL - Wanting to get paid for your labour is greedy.

Thank god PayPal is stepping into claim ownership over people's labour...

[Deozaan]

That's why I didn't get it.  The first thing I thought was "Cool!  A way for them to monetize their contributions!"  I guess I was in the minority with that thought process.

I don't get the problem with (read: uproar about) the idea that modders should be able to charge for their work. But what I don't like about it is that the modder only gets a 25% cut. That's hardly worth it unless you charge a lot of money for your mod.

But that's off topic for this thread, so I'll stop here.

[wraith808]

That's why I didn't get it.  The first thing I thought was "Cool!  A way for them to monetize their contributions!"  I guess I was in the minority with that thought process.

I don't get the problem with (read: uproar about) the idea that modders should be able to charge for their work. But what I don't like about it is that the modder only gets a 25% cut. That's hardly worth it unless you charge a lot of money for your mod.

But that's off topic for this thread, so I'll stop here.

Maybe we should make a thread for that in the gamers club area.  Oh wait!  I already did!

[bit]

What content gets posted to PayPal? AFAIK the only "content" that PayPal facilitates moving from one person to another is money.

Someone selling something using PayPal isn't actually giving the goods to PayPal to disburse to the buyer. So I don't get what all this means.

I don't get it either.
I'm (sort of) familiar with websites which host your stuff and merely want the privilege to be able to use your content in their advertising, but they don't ask you to sell your soul.
Another question is 'defensibility', as in; once Paypal starts implementing this and the typical delayed onset starts to sink in with outraged late-hearers discovering that this stunt (whatever it entails) has been pulled on them by Paypal, how does Paypal intend to defend their new (your old) intellectual 'territory'?
So what is Paypal going to do when someone basically ignores their claim; ban them from Paypal, and then what, try to sue them for 'infringement'?

I can imagine at this point a tidal wave of consumer displeasure with not only Paypal, but any outfit (such as ebay) which insists on being paid through Paypal.
There could then ensue a secondary and no less sizable tidal wave of businesses, not wanting to offend or be cut off from their lucrative customer base, dumping Paypal and-or finding a new way to be paid other than Paypal, such as Dwolla, WePay, Veridian Credit Union, Amazon Payments, Stripe, Braintree, bit coin, and good old-fashioned VISA.

Come to think of it, aren't there some kind of 'truth in whatever' laws forbidding anyone from doing this?
As in the old stunt where someone sends part-payment (say 10%) of a bill by physical check, and writes on the check, 'Cashing this check constitutes acknowledgment of receipt of payment in full'.
It really 'games the system' in ways that are morally so retrograde that the only reason I'm willing to believe Paypal thinks they can get away with it is that instead of kiting it as a proposal, they're actually giving forewarning of full intent to go through with it.

I still don't understand fully exactly what it is Paypal is attempting to do.
However, it would only take me one moment of feeling totally betrayed, for me to revoke my registration with Paypal permanently, and deal resolutely with inconveniences as they develop.

Please keep us posted, as I would appreciate a more complete explanation of what Paypal is attempting, in 'plain language' or 'layman's terms'.
July 1st is just around the corner, and I need to know what to decide in case I need to pull the plug on Paypal.

[bit]

Hmm, okay...lemme see...
Not that I understand, but the Paypal new rule says "...You represent and warrant that none of the following infringe any intellectual property right: your provision of content to us, your posting of content using the Services, and the PayPal Group’s use of such content (including of works derived from it) in connection with the Services.”
Repeat: '...in connection with the Services'.
Almost sounds like the old time-honored agreement that the host (i.e. Paypal) just wants permission to use your stuff for promotional purposes, as when they show a happy smiling customer's face on their home page for a few hours or days as an advertisement gimmick.
But then, why demand intellectual 'ownership', as in 'All your base are belong to us'?

Double-hmm; backing up a little, the rule also says it is 'nonexclusive', as in '...you grant the PayPal Group a non-exclusive, worldwide, perpetual, irrevocable...'
Keyword: 'non-exclusive'.
Sounds more and more like the more or less standard host 'advertising clause', because they're not denying you your rights to your own stuff if it's 'non-exclusive'.
It 'almost' sounds like they just want to be able to post pix of you, your kids, your pets, and such on their web site home page to show a happy clientele consumer base; that kind of thing.

Then again OTOH, that's not 'exactly' what they're saying, is it?
I'm not really the go-to person for the bottom line in this, and it's always possible Paypal really is trying to play grab-ass after all.

[bit]

Update.
"What Do the PayPal Proposed Changes Mean To My Business?"
The article appears to say about what I posted in my last post to this thread.

[TaoPhoenix]

Heh we really need to encourage some lawyer to be the In House DC Lawyer to settle stuff like this! : )

[tomos]

I'll chance adding this here - I know it's not really on topic... but didnt think worth a new thread (?)

PayPal Can Now Call You at Home

PayPal’s new terms and conditions means that users in the United States may receive automated marketing calls, emails, and text messages from the company and its affiliates. The relevant passage states, “You consent to receive autodialed or pre-recorded calls and text messages from PayPal at any telephone number that you have provided us or that we have otherwise obtained.”

This has caused consternation amongst users, who are being advised to “close your account before July 1, 2015 … [to] not be bound by the amended terms.” PayPal is insisting users will have the chance to opt out of these unsolicited communications, but automatically opting everybody in in the first place is the main source of complaint. Here’s hoping PayPal listens to it users, or they may go looking for alternatives.

from
http://www.makeuseof.com/tag/yahoo-maps-pipes-facebook-lite-crap-tech-news-digest/
(makeuseof.com news digest - so you will have to scroll ~half-way down the page)

and
Making Online Payments – 5 PayPal Alternatives to Consider

[Stoic Joker]

from
http://www.makeuseof.com/tag/yahoo-maps-pipes-facebook-lite-crap-tech-news-digest/
(makeuseof.com news digest - so you will have to scroll ~half-way down the page)

Wait... Yahoo Maps is going away at the end of June?!?! Damn it!

[JavaJones]

Every time a company changes their ToS to include these kinds of clauses people freak out, and every time it has had the same basic reasoning and meaning. It has happened with Google, Facebook, Flickr, and many more. No company in their right mind would actually try to appropriate your content *and get away with it*. It's way too far reaching, and the actual potential benefit to the company is questionable. We need to be vigilant to make sure no one is trying to do those things merely *because* people expect it to be too audacious, but in reality the actual danger from ToS changes is fairly low.

- Oshyan

[rgdot]

Not currently but used Yahoo Pipes before, never Yahoo maps that I recall.

And I agree with Oshyan.

Vigilance but not paranoia or words to that effect

[wraith808]

I'll chance adding this here - I know it's not really on topic... but didnt think worth a new thread (?)

PayPal Can Now Call You at Home

PayPal’s new terms and conditions means that users in the United States may receive automated marketing calls, emails, and text messages from the company and its affiliates. The relevant passage states, “You consent to receive autodialed or pre-recorded calls and text messages from PayPal at any telephone number that you have provided us or that we have otherwise obtained.”

This has caused consternation amongst users, who are being advised to “close your account before July 1, 2015 … [to] not be bound by the amended terms.” PayPal is insisting users will have the chance to opt out of these unsolicited communications, but automatically opting everybody in in the first place is the main source of complaint. Here’s hoping PayPal listens to it users, or they may go looking for alternatives.

from
http://www.makeuseof.com/tag/yahoo-maps-pipes-facebook-lite-crap-tech-news-digest/
(makeuseof.com news digest - so you will have to scroll ~half-way down the page)

and
Making Online Payments – 5 PayPal Alternatives to Consider

I think the alternatives page by itself is enough for a new thread.  Trying to pay for things online feels like choosing between getting hit with a rock or thrown without a parachute into the hard place to paraphrase a saying.

[xtabber]

Since 2013. the Telephone Consumer Protection Act (TCPA) has forbidden auto dialed calls to US cell phones without prior express written consent.  Implicit consent and prior business relationships are explicitly disallowed as exemptions.  The fines for noncompliance are steep.

The FCC has already announced that it is looking into the matter, as is the New York State Attorney General.

Unless PayPal is planning to liquidate or move to Russia, I really can't understand what they, or their lawyers, think they are going to accomplish.

[xtabber]

PayPal has retreated on robocalls.

If you have a PayPal account, you should have received an email with the following BS clarification:

We value our relationship with you and work hard to communicate clearly. Recently, however, we did not live up to our own standards.

Earlier this year, we sent you an email about updates that we planned to make to our User Agreement on July 1, 2015. The User Agreement is a document we share to help you understand your relationship with PayPal and the obligations we both have.

Unfortunately, some of the language in this update caused confusion and concern with some of our customers about how we may contact you.

To clear up any confusion, we have modified the terms of Section 1.10 of our User Agreement. The new language is intended to make it clear that PayPal primarily uses autodialed or prerecorded calls and texts to:

•     Help detect, investigate and protect our customers from fraud
•     Provide notices to our customers regarding their accounts or account activity
•     Collect a debt owed to us

In addition, the new Section 1.10(a) and 1.10(b) makes it clear that:

•     We will not use autodialed or prerecorded calls or texts to contact our customers for marketing purposes without prior express written consent.
•     Customers can continue to enjoy our products and services without needing to consent to receive autodialed or prerecorded calls or texts.
•     We respect our customers' communications preferences and recognize that their consent is required for certain autodialed and prerecorded calls and texts. Customers may revoke consent to receive these communications by contacting PayPal customer support and informing us of their preferences.