Most outliners, once you clone an item, will NOT distinguish anymore between the "original" and the "clones", whilst conceptually, there should be an (updatable) difference, and which I call "natural parent" and "adoptive parent" - name it as you like, but it's evident any item in a tree hierarchy should have a "natural/main context", and then, perhaps multiple, "additional contexts" - and be it only for avoidance-of-recursion reasons: btw, I mentioned this problem within a discussion of InfoQube in the outlinerswforum, where the developer of IQ, Pierre Paul Landry, suberbly said (I'm citing from memory), "IQ allows for recursion"... when in fact, recursion is a PROBLEM of IM, and which has to be avoided/contained, and certainly not a feature of IM (development illac ;-) ).

Hi Peter,
re: natural Parent: Agreed: In InfoQube, an item has a "Main Parent" and any number of other parents. Users can change which item is considered the main parent. The "Main Parent" is used to show hierarchy in grids.

re: Recursion: Why do you see recursion as a problem for IM software. In InfoQube, it is a very useful feature. This ensures that items can be moved around in the hierarchy without limitations (only limitation: an item cannot be a child of itself)

HTH

Pierre
IQ Designer

Hi tomos,

You see, Pierre Paul has got sw that for any mention of his prog, wherever that might be, he's informed of it, and pronto! Neville should have similar, so no prob for discussing sw within threads named for different sw. ;-)

Hi Pierre Paul,

I tried to discuss recursion some months ago with you, but you didn't answer.

Let's just continue our discussion over there.

For the casual reader here:
- whenever recursion occurs, you must cut it off on export/print (and the routine could add some info there re the cut, e.g. reference to the item number ("e.g. 3.2.6.3.2") in the exported subtree
- data replication (e.g. a cloned heading with some general info, at several places in the hierarchy) is not recursion (and thus is without prob)
- I've never seen any IMS in which recursion would have been "advisable", let alone "necessary" for any of its content, hence:
- You could even implement a routine that will prevent recursion, your data construct only gaining in clarity by this
- We're speaking of IM here, not of code libraries
- But even those, incl. their recursive parts, can be put in a non-recursive tree structure

- In fact, we're discussing main frame spaghetti code for information... but then came Jean-Dominique Warnier...
- And what was missing in his system, we do it by cross-referencing

- Could we have a (short, schematized, but nethertheless) real-life example of where recursion in IM would really be useful?
- Sloppy programming has been exterminated; why incite "information managers" to do sloppy IM?

My points for IM are:
1 - Recursion can (but must) be handled when it occurs
2 - Recursion can be prevented (as can "go to")
3 - Recursion should be avoided for clarity reasons
4 - I'm open to rethink point 3 if I'm given a real-life example where recursion might be helpful

PPL long time!  Good hearing from you.

I don't know about "love" for RN but I bought the Pro and use it extensively corralling text notes, web content, etc.  I'm not a power user - I don't care about attributes or things like that.  As a (portable app) text archive, with embedded attachments and basic spreadsheet support it does a good job (for me, YMMV).  I have tried almost every tree outliner program out there and the only other program that is comparable is EssentialPIM. I like EPim but wish it had spreadsheet capability.   

What I really don't like about RN is the increasing focus on EverNote integration - since I use the program to avoid cloud-based solutions. EN seems to be crowding out any other program improvements.  Also, the pdf handling drives me crazy.  If I embed it (OLE), it isn't searchable.  I have to attach it if I want the pdf content searchable.  And I agree moving anything isn't fun.    

I am keeping an eye on CherryTree, which I like a lot (no embedded attachments right now but I like the csv imports) and have also purchased Mars Notebook, which might be a workable alternative to RightNote for some users.  It's inexpensive anyway.  :-)

The InfoQube looks interesting but overkill for my needs.  One program that almost worked for me was RIM/Remus Information Management. I'm not fond of Java or Eclipse but it had potential. If only it had attracted a developer following...

I find its web clipping a bit fragile.  Some pages it will import without a murmur, but on some it locks up.  On those, it's sometimes possible to use the clipboard instead.  I've also found it too ready to crash when cutting a sub-tree with Shift+Control+X to move it to another page.

I find myself keeping MS Word open most of the time and often paste into that first and then into RN or whatever program I'm using. I haven't found any organizer/outliner program that will always paste web content correctly.  (I have to copy and paste directly most of the time due to proxy issues.)  But even with all its annoyances, RN still works the best for me.  There isn't a perfect program out there.

My criteria for such a program is probably different than most.  The most important features for me are portability, price (under $50 preferably), robust import/export (mainly export) and the ability to embed files/attachments.  Spreadsheet capability is #5 and seems to be one of the make or break features.  Portability and attachments are deal breakers for me, though.  I would spend more for a great program that does everything but I haven't found it yet. 

One other program I did buy but haven't used much is Library.Net (http://fishcodelib.com/CodeLib.htm) It's powerful but not intuitive for me - I keep putting off using it. Not sure why, there's something I don't like about how it does tabs and nodes.  I should use it more just to get past the interface issues. 

Local Website Archive by Aignes Software (Developer of Website-Watcher) makes the most accurate captures of all that I have used. Not too good with regard to other aspects of data collection/analysis like others, but the captures are as perfect as you will get.
http://aignes.com/lwa.htm
 --
For those pages that aren't easily captured with RN Pro and other programs, I use the Firefox extension Scrapbook and then "capture" the copy that Scrapbook made. Works very well!

I don't understand why the developer doesn't merge LWA with AM-Notebook.  I really liked that program but no attachments... however I believe that the web archive can archive PDF documents (among others) and integrate with the Pro notebook version.  If I didn't have RN, it might have been an okay workaround.

I've been using Chrome for the last six months or so but I miss the Scrapbook tool.  I should get around to importing some of that into RN...  Thanks for the reminder.  :-)  

ETA:  You're right - the web archive program is pretty amazing.  I just tested a couple of pages that nothing gets right.  I need to think about that one now.