Author Topic: Knight to queen's bishop 3 - Snowden charged with espionage. (Read 536,418 times)

mouser · « **Reply #350 on:** September 27, 2013, 10:29 PM »

I read two books about Chris Boyce (Falcon and the Snowman, Flight of the Falcon) when I was in high school and was completely enthralled by them.

In the 1970s Boyce was a young kid who opposed the military industrial complex and unexpectedly found himself working for the government in a position that gave him access to military secrets. He and a friend (Daulton Lee) eventually became spies and sold information to a foreign government.

Wired has an interview with Chris Boyce where they discuss the parallels to Snowden and Manning. It's quite interesting to hear his take on the issues.

http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2013/09/boyce-qa/

ps. This interview coincides with the release of a new book by Boyce on the incident, The Falcon and The Snowman: American Sons.

Renegade · « **Reply #351 on:** September 28, 2013, 06:50 AM »

Interesting interview. Here are a few interesting snippets.

Quote

WIRED: What do you think of the Snowden leaks?

Boyce: Well I think he’s done a service to the Bill of Rights. I think he’s protecting our freedoms. I’m glad he did what he did...

...snip...

Boyce: I think everything since 9/11 has been [ed: overkill]. The Patriot Act and all this, it’s all overkill. It’s overreach by the surveillance state.

...snip...

Boyce: Well, I agree with what my wife Cait said here not so long ago: The average American is more interested in how much cream and sugar he has in his coffee than his civil liberties.

Sigh...

I wish more people would get angry about this. Or upset or just talk about it. Something. Just to keep up the pressure.

TaoPhoenix · « **Reply #352 on:** September 29, 2013, 07:12 PM »

More Snowden news!

(Preamble: Notice the big difference somehow between Bradley Manning and Snowden? Why do I know nothing of what Manning uncovered and Snowden's info is consistently getting out? And yes, slow feeds are proving more powerful than "1 data dump no one will look at"! Because like Ad guys learned 80 years ago, "exposures" count.)

From Slashdot's copy:
"Snowden Strikes Again: NSA Mapping Social Connections of US Citizens"
http://news.slashdot.org/story/13/09/29/0326239/snowden-strikes-again-nsa-mapping-social-connections-of-us-citizens

""The New York Times is reporting on yet another NSA revelation: for the last three years, the National Security Agency has been exploiting its huge collections of data to create sophisticated graphs of some Americans' social connections that can identify their associates, their locations at certain times, their traveling companions and other personal information. 'The agency can augment the communications data with material from public, commercial and other sources, including bank codes, insurance information, Facebook profiles, passenger manifests, voter registration rolls and GPS location information, as well as property records and unspecified tax data, according to the documents."

.........................

This one is pretty big. It's the next move of the game! Because with proof that the NSA/etc is *not* as inept as they like to pretend, if they have social maps of everyone, it's the conceptual beginning of the end of Social Media. (But only a VERY SLOW beginning!)

Some funny notes:
1. If they're operating at this level, it makes the "cop shows" really funny! I'll leave it to my betters to ... uh ... start the laughter!

2. This time it's the NY Times reporting. They have enough legal sharks to hold onto their hats against a little bit of bullying. Snickering aside, NYT is still one of the top seven papers in the US. So that's about as big as big media gets. So did Snowden get some good high class help to be able to keep doing this stuff?

TaoPhoenix · « **Reply #353 on:** September 29, 2013, 07:40 PM »

Then there's this alternative:

http://gawker.com/naomi-wolf-is-a-snowden-truther-513470303
"Specifically, Wolf wishes to convey her "creeping concern" that Snowden "is not who he purports to be." Who is he, then? Signs point to his being one of them. You know: THEM.
...
""He is super-organized, for a whistleblower"—so organized, his methods resemble those of "high-level political surrogates."
"He conveys his message "without struggling for words." Again, like a political surrogate. "
"...Julian Assange is careful to keep lots of lawyers around him, unlike Snowden, who is suspiciously well organized and composed, except for his failure to get a lawyer. Because Julian Assange is the genuine article, not like Snowden, and whistleblowers who are the genuine article "don’t tend ever to call attention to their own self-sacrifice," which is a thing that Julian Assange would never dream of doing in a million years. "

IainB · « **Reply #354 on:** September 30, 2013, 02:03 AM »

Quote from: Renegade on September 28, 2013, 06:50 AM

Interesting interview. Here are a few interesting snippets.
Quote
...snip...
Boyce: Well, I agree with what my wife Cait said here not so long ago: The average American is more interested in how much cream and sugar he has in his coffee than his civil liberties.
Sigh...
I wish more people would get angry about this. Or upset or just talk about it. Something. Just to keep up the pressure.
__________________________

So @Renegade, how much cream and sugar do you have in your coffee? I drink coffee by the mug-full and prefer milk, not cream - just a dash, and of the skimmed variety, not full cream.
Sugar, I like maybe a level teaspoon-full in the mornings, and at most a half teaspoon-full in cups of coffee after that. I love coffee.

I didn't know this was going to be a discussion about coffee. How nice!

Renegade · « **Reply #355 on:** September 30, 2013, 02:10 AM »

Quote from: TaoPhoenix on September 29, 2013, 07:40 PM

Then there's this alternative:

http://gawker.com/naomi-wolf-is-a-snowden-truther-513470303
"Specifically, Wolf wishes to convey her "creeping concern" that Snowden "is not who he purports to be." Who is he, then? Signs point to his being one of them. You know: THEM.
...
""He is super-organized, for a whistleblower"—so organized, his methods resemble those of "high-level political surrogates."
"He conveys his message "without struggling for words." Again, like a political surrogate. "
"...Julian Assange is careful to keep lots of lawyers around him, unlike Snowden, who is suspiciously well organized and composed, except for his failure to get a lawyer. Because Julian Assange is the genuine article, not like Snowden, and whistleblowers who are the genuine article "don’t tend ever to call attention to their own self-sacrifice," which is a thing that Julian Assange would never dream of doing in a million years. "

She could be right. I rather doubt it, but it is possible. Panopticon? They can't look everywhere, so if people think they are, they modify their behaviour? Trauma-based behaviour modification?

While I rather doubt it, there's nothing wrong with entertaining possibilities.

The NSA and its cohorts have done worse. e.g. Charles Taylor was a CIA asset/agent - look what he did in Africa.

Renegade · « **Reply #356 on:** September 30, 2013, 02:15 AM »

Quote from: IainB on September 30, 2013, 02:03 AM

So @Renegade, how much cream and sugar do you have in your coffee? I drink coffee by the mug-full and prefer milk, not cream - just a dash, and of the skimmed variety, not full cream.
Sugar, I like maybe a level teaspoon-full in the mornings, and at most a half teaspoon-full in cups of coffee after that. I love coffee.
I didn't know this was going to be a discussion about coffee. How nice!

Hahaha!

Milk here too. Once in a while I like steamed/foamed milk in my coffee. But not drip coffee for me. Nosiree! Watered-down espresso. Americano. With a bit of sugar to take the bitterness out. Sometimes malt extract, but then I run out of malt extract and am back to sugar. Never artificial sweetener though. I tried stevia, but prefer malt extract.

Did anyone see the last Dancing with the Stars? There's a new show out now as well, Masters of Sex. Haven't seen that one yet...

TaoPhoenix · « **Reply #357 on:** October 01, 2013, 12:01 AM »

Quote from: Renegade on September 30, 2013, 02:10 AM

Quote from: TaoPhoenix on September 29, 2013, 07:40 PM
Then there's this alternative:

http://gawker.com/naomi-wolf-is-a-snowden-truther-513470303
"Specifically, Wolf wishes to convey her "creeping concern" that Snowden "is not who he purports to be." Who is he, then? Signs point to his being one of them. You know: THEM.
...
""He is super-organized, for a whistleblower"—so organized, his methods resemble those of "high-level political surrogates."
"He conveys his message "without struggling for words." Again, like a political surrogate. "
"...Julian Assange is careful to keep lots of lawyers around him, unlike Snowden, who is suspiciously well organized and composed, except for his failure to get a lawyer. Because Julian Assange is the genuine article, not like Snowden, and whistleblowers who are the genuine article "don’t tend ever to call attention to their own self-sacrifice," which is a thing that Julian Assange would never dream of doing in a million years. "

She could be right. I rather doubt it, but it is possible. Panopticon? They can't look everywhere, so if people think they are, they modify their behaviour? Trauma-based behaviour modification?

While I rather doubt it, there's nothing wrong with entertaining possibilities.

The NSA and its cohorts have done worse. e.g. Charles Taylor was a CIA asset/agent - look what he did in Africa.

When you are faced with total confusion, it's not all bad to entertain Black Sheep theories. I am struck by the changes in tone vs two other people I feel did almost the same "work", Julian Assange and Bradley Manning. Except it's like The System ran dry shutting those stories down old school style, and finally the deep social threads are in place where Snowden is ... doing something. And not in jail.

And that colossal cognitive dissonance is kinda eating me. I'm slightly to (which?) side of you politically/rhetorically, but we're sorta kindred in our general distrust of pablum. So I have this long running sense from a table gaming perspective (both Magic the Gathering and Chess and a little bit of card Solitaire theory in the mix!) that there's X missing fragments of info that aren't making correct sense of the "tableau".

And whether by systemic flaws or design the Media isn't (easily findable?) pointing those out (often enough?).

Renegade · « **Reply #358 on:** October 01, 2013, 12:34 AM »

Quote from: TaoPhoenix on October 01, 2013, 12:01 AM

When you are faced with total confusion, it's not all bad to entertain Black Sheep theories. I am struck by the changes in tone vs two other people I feel did almost the same "work", Julian Assange and Bradley Manning. Except it's like The System ran dry shutting those stories down old school style, and finally the deep social threads are in place where Snowden is ... doing something. And not in jail.

And that colossal cognitive dissonance is kinda eating me. I'm slightly to (which?) side of you politically/rhetorically, but we're sorta kindred in our general distrust of pablum. So I have this long running sense from a table gaming perspective (both Magic the Gathering and Chess and a little bit of card Solitaire theory in the mix!) that there's X missing fragments of info that aren't making correct sense of the "tableau".

+1

I have one rant/argument about strong atheism that in the abstract applies broadly to other areas, including "conspiracy theories". I'll frame it as such here.

These are 2 very different beliefs:

A) I do NOT believe that Edward Snowden is acting as an intelligence agent for the sake of destabilizing the government.

B) I believe that Edward Snowden is NOT acting as an intelligence agent for the sake of destabilizing the government.

A is a weak belief.
B is a strong belief.

Strong negative beliefs don't really make much sense most of the time. Unless there is evidence that is existentially incompatible with it, they're simply nonsense.

For example, I am sitting at my desk. Sitting and standing are mutually exclusive. So, the following strong belief makes sense:

I believe that I am not standing.

Still, it's rather stupid as it would make more sense to say:

I believe that I am sitting.

Positive statements are better than negative statements.

For that particular theory about Snowden, while we may not believe it, it doesn't make much sense to have a strong belief unless there is clear evidence that is existentially incompatible with it (evidence that is mutually exclusive from it), which we do not have.

Quote from: TaoPhoenix on October 01, 2013, 12:01 AM

And whether by systemic flaws or design the Media isn't (easily findable?) pointing those out (often enough?).

Probably a bit of both - systemic flaws and by design. There are decent alternative media outlets, though it can be difficult to find them, and sometimes you have to sort some chaff.

wraith808 · « **Reply #359 on:** October 01, 2013, 03:10 AM »

A CEO who resisted NSA spying is out of prison. And he feels ‘vindicated’ by Snowden leaks.

Renegade · « **Reply #360 on:** October 01, 2013, 03:34 AM »

Quote from: wraith808 on October 01, 2013, 03:10 AM

A CEO who resisted NSA spying is out of prison. And he feels ‘vindicated’ by Snowden leaks.

I remember reading about him before. Just another chapter in the long and storied tradition of using the justice system to achieve political ends.

Quote

The NSA declined to comment on Nacchio, referring inquiries to the Department of Justice. The Department of Justice did not respond to The Post's request for comment.

Oh gee. I wonder why.

NSA = New Sturm Abteilung

The DoJ represents anything but justice now. They're a sick, decaying mockery.

Renegade · « **Reply #361 on:** October 01, 2013, 03:42 AM »

I really want to spin this off into its own thread, but instead I'll just use a BIG FONT!

http://www.reddit.com/r/Anarcho_Capitalism/comments/1nh7of/glenn_greenwald_is_doing_an_iama_tomorrow_101/

Glenn Greenwald is doing an IAmA tomorrow (10/1).

Not sure where to find more info though... But if that's correct, it's a good chance to ask questions of one of the most informed people on the planet when it comes to spying on you.

TaoPhoenix · « **Reply #362 on:** October 01, 2013, 04:25 AM »

Or something.

Re: Strong and Weak, I don't even know a question you could ask "him" that would prove it!

It just remains a mess/morass.

Renegade · « **Reply #363 on:** October 01, 2013, 08:01 AM »

Quote from: Renegade on October 01, 2013, 03:42 AM

Not sure where to find more info though... But if that's correct, it's a good chance to ask questions of one of the most informed people on the planet when it comes to spying on you.

And here's more info!

http://www.theverge.com/2013/9/30/4789118/glenn-greenwald-janine-gibson-guardian-reddit-ama-nsa

Quote

As you can see in the tweet above, the Ask Me Anything session will begin tomorrow, October 1st at 1PM ET. We'll be watching. Will you be asking?

https://twitter.com/guardiantech/status/384842183888879616

Quote

RT @guardianUS: TOMORROW, 1pm ET: @janinegibson & @ggreenwald host a Reddit AMA. Questions about #NSAFiles? Bookmark: http://trib.al/DSYE1pN

Stoic Joker · « **Reply #364 on:** October 01, 2013, 11:31 AM »

Quote from: article

And according to his timeline, in February 2001 — some six months before the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks — he was approached by the NSA and asked to spy on customers during a meeting he thought was about a different contract.

Wait...what? I was always of the impression this nonsense was (9/11) overreactional. But this would make it rather decidedly premeditated.

Renegade · « **Reply #365 on:** October 01, 2013, 11:47 AM »

It's been going on since at least 1975. Well, different equipment and capabilities, but same steamy pile.

9/11 was just the best thing ever to happen as it let them justify, or try to justify the worst abuses of privacy in history -- and that was just the dinner mint. They got wars and all kinds of goodies out of it.

wraith808 · « **Reply #366 on:** October 01, 2013, 01:02 PM »

Quote from: Stoic Joker on October 01, 2013, 11:31 AM

Quote from: article
And according to his timeline, in February 2001 — some six months before the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks — he was approached by the NSA and asked to spy on customers during a meeting he thought was about a different contract.

Wait...what? I was always of the impression this nonsense was (9/11) overreactional. But this would make it rather decidedly premeditated.

You really didn't think any of this was reactionary and/or coincidental did you?

Premeditated, strategized, and meticulously planned are the words of the day.

Stoic Joker · « **Reply #367 on:** October 01, 2013, 05:54 PM »

Quote from: Renegade on October 01, 2013, 11:47 AM

It's been going on since at least 1975. Well, different equipment and capabilities, but same steamy pile.

9/11 was just the best thing ever to happen as it let them justify, or try to justify the worst abuses of privacy in history -- and that was just the dinner mint. They got wars and all kinds of goodies out of it.

Interesting... I've long suspected that when the fall of the American empire is retrospectively and objectively documented that MADD will be at the very testing phase top of the when-they-came chain. I say testing phase because it really was a sentinel moment/game changing proof-of-concept for how much spin doctored shit "We the people" would eat if it was packaged (for the children...) just right.

Quote from: wraith808 on October 01, 2013, 01:02 PM

Quote from: Stoic Joker on October 01, 2013, 11:31 AM
Quote from: article
And according to his timeline, in February 2001 — some six months before the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks — he was approached by the NSA and asked to spy on customers during a meeting he thought was about a different contract.

Wait...what? I was always of the impression this nonsense was (9/11) overreactional. But this would make it rather decidedly premeditated.

You really didn't think any of this was reactionary and/or coincidental did you?

Premeditated, strategized, and meticulously planned are the words of the day.

Coincidental no. But yes, I did have the general impression that 9/11 was a strategically seized opportunity to had the keys to the kingdom to the Hun in prime time. Previously, there seemed to be more of a honor-among-thieves feel to it where only bad cops/feds or desperate ones would step over the line in extreme circumstances. So the spying was more discreet/testing phase instead of the full bore pervasive insanity we have now.

Vurbal · « **Reply #368 on:** October 01, 2013, 11:26 PM »

I've said it before and I'll say it again. The exponential increase in government overreach and secrecy are primarily the result of electing entirely inexperienced and unqualified individuals presidents. It's no secret that Dick Cheney had complete control of the intelligence expansion to the point where his office made a point of keeping secrets from the Attorney General's office to avoid adverse legal opinions getting in the way.

While Biden doesn't have the defense industry connections that Cheney does, during his lengthy tenure on the Senate Judicial Committee he was consistently the FBI's go to cheerleader for increasing their surveillance powers and secret legal proceedings. He attempted to push through one of their pet bills which strongly foreshadowed the Patriot Act all the way back in 1995.

I'd be willing to bet his office is just as hands on with both law enforcement and intelligence agencies as Cheney's was. That would certainly explain why Brazil was apparently a significant target of NSA surveillance. As perhaps the only US ally that's both a major economic power but not willing to be steamrolled by our trade policy they're one of the biggest targets for US IP lobbying. Add in the fact their state owned oil company is now bigger than all but one of their US competitors and it's not hard to figure out the government's motivation.

Renegade · « **Reply #369 on:** October 02, 2013, 03:27 AM »

Here's the AMA:

http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/1nisdy/were_glenn_greenwald_and_janine_gibson_of_the/

http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/1nisdy/were_glenn_greenwald_and_janine_gibson_of_the/cciybnk

Quote

A major reason why those in power always try to use surveillance is because surveillance = power. The more you know about someone, the more you can control and manipulate them in all sorts of ways. That is one reason a Surveillance State is so menacing to basic political liberties.

http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/1nisdy/were_glenn_greenwald_and_janine_gibson_of_the/cciy580

Quote

<<How do you answer the accusations that Snowden is a Chinese or Russian spy, or that they stole the secrets from him?>>
Ask any person making this absurd, ludicrous accusation for a single shred of evidence that it's true, and then marvel as they stutter and spew fabrications.
As for Snowden v. Rogers, there is no question that the latter lied. There is no technical limitation whatsoever on the NSA's power to read whatever emails which analysts with a terminal target.

Hehehee! The burden of proof is on the person making the claim. Neat and simple.

More there of course.

wraith808 · « **Reply #370 on:** October 04, 2013, 04:14 AM »

Holy @#$!

I'll just leave this here...

http://cryptome.org/2013/10/lavabit-orders.pdf

I started to download it in case it 'disappears'. But... that's hot stuff.

What I really like is the last page... Lavabit tells the federales to suck it by giving them the requested 2048-bit private key in text.

Quote

At approximately 1:30 p.m. EDT on August 2, 2013, Mr. Levison gave the FBI a printout of what he represented to be the encryption keys needed to operate the pen register. This printout, in what appears to be 4-point type, consists of 11 pages of largely illegible characters. See Attachment A. (The attachment was created by scanning the document provided by Mr. Levison; the original document was described by the Dallas FBI agents as slightly clearer than the scanned copy but nevertheless illegible .) Moreover, each of the five encryption keys contains 512 individual characters - or a total of 2560 characters. To make use of these keys, the FBI would have to manually input all 2560 characters, and one incorrect keystroke in this laborious process would render the FBI collection system incapable of collecting decrypted data.

TaoPhoenix · « **Reply #371 on:** October 04, 2013, 07:17 AM »

There's an "obstruction" charge in there if he is not careful. It makes for great "copy". But then the $300,000 fine 22 days later is not so fun!

Renegade · « **Reply #372 on:** October 04, 2013, 09:23 AM »

Quote from: wraith808 on October 04, 2013, 04:14 AM

Holy @#$!

I'll just leave this here...

http://cryptome.org/2013/10/lavabit-orders.pdf

I started to download it in case it 'disappears'. But... that's hot stuff.

What I really like is the last page... Lavabit tells the federales to suck it by giving them the requested 2048-bit private key in text.

Quote
At approximately 1:30 p.m. EDT on August 2, 2013, Mr. Levison gave the FBI a printout of what he represented to be the encryption keys needed to operate the pen register. This printout, in what appears to be 4-point type, consists of 11 pages of largely illegible characters. See Attachment A. (The attachment was created by scanning the document provided by Mr. Levison; the original document was described by the Dallas FBI agents as slightly clearer than the scanned copy but nevertheless illegible .) Moreover, each of the five encryption keys contains 512 individual characters - or a total of 2560 characters. To make use of these keys, the FBI would have to manually input all 2560 characters, and one incorrect keystroke in this laborious process would render the FBI collection system incapable of collecting decrypted data.

Great find! Thanks for posting that!

Here's 1 page for those that don't want to download the PDF:

[attachthumb=#]

I've posted that as a thumbnail, but it's no more readable if you enlarge it. (Nice going Lavabit!

) It starts on page 145.

The quote wraith posted is page 140-141 in the PDF.

Regarding this part:

Quote

The printout, in what appears to be 4-point type, consists of 11 pages of largely illegible characters.

C'mon! They have microscopes. They were just being unreasonably obtuse!

They got what they asked for. But noooo! Rather than just do a little bit of work, they'd rather waste time and file legal-mumbo-jumbo.

Lazy. Just plain lazy!

Renegade · « **Reply #373 on:** October 10, 2013, 03:39 PM »

Interesting:

http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20130930/16175624702/three-months-after-it-cleared-100k-signature-threshold-pardon-snowden-petition-still-unanswered.shtml

Quote

Three Months After It Cleared The 100K Signature Threshold, 'Pardon Snowden' Petition Still Unanswered

Renegade · « **Reply #374 on:** October 10, 2013, 04:13 PM »

From the EFF:

https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2013/10/how-nsa-deploys-malware-new-revelations

Quote

How The NSA Deploys Malware: An In-Depth Look at the New Revelations

Phishing + MitM? Sigh...