Opera 15 Preview

[allen]

First preview of the Webkit based Opera 15 is out.

So how different is Opera 15 from Opera 12.15, the latest stable desktop version? You may not notice that many changes on first glance but there are many if you look deeper.

• The icons in the bottom bar including the zoom slider are not there anymore.
• You cannot open a small sidebar panel with often used icons anymore.
• The appearance menu is not available anymore. It seems that you cannot customize the look and feel of the browser anymore. This includes toolbars, icons and their position and visibility in the browser. No tabs on side.
• The browser settings are limited.  Examples of removed preferences include selecting helper applications for selected programs, font selection, all tabs options and file type actions.
• The opera:config page is no longer available.
• Chromium developer tools are now used. Bye bye Dragonfly.
• Opera Notes is not available.
• Custom shortcuts and many mouse gestures missing.
• Bookmarks not available yet.
• No RSS.
• Opera Extensions are not supported.

[Source]

I'm going to be playing with it today... we'll see how it goes. The one thing I'm excited about is M2 becoming a standalone mail client -- that's something I've really always hoped for.

[pilgrim]

I use Opera Mail on Windows 7 and after the problems I had setting it up I have been wondering about what the changes to Opera will mean.
My inclination was not to update Opera for now and see what other people think, having looked at the quote above I might leave it as it is permanently.

[allen]

So far, the new version of Opera is REALLY stripped down... it's basically reskinned Chrome with half the functionality and a new icon. Can't change the default search engine, bookmarks don't sync, it's... pretty much pointless. I'll be curious to see how they differentiate themselves moving forward. It's always been a niche browser for enthusiastic power tweakers... they've thrown all that out. Thus far, the only reason I can think of for using it in the future is sync with Opera mobile, if you use that. Of course, that's purely speculative because even that doesn't work right now.

[Dormouse]

I use Chrome as my No 2 browser anyway, so I don't need another version. I will be very, very careful about updating Opera from here on in. I'm not necessarily bothered by the switch to webkit - but if it changes the browser experience for me, then that is a totally different thing.

I find it hard to look forward to using FF more though and ie isn't going to happen so long as I have any choice at all.

[TaoPhoenix]

So far, the new version of Opera is REALLY stripped down... it's basically reskinned Chrome with half the functionality and a new icon. Can't change the default search engine, bookmarks don't sync, it's... pretty much pointless. I'll be curious to see how they differentiate themselves moving forward. It's always been a niche browser for enthusiastic power tweakers... they've thrown all that out. Thus far, the only reason I can think of for using it in the future is sync with Opera mobile, if you use that. Of course, that's purely speculative because even that doesn't work right now.

This is disappointing to me too. I'm not glued to a rendering engine per se - I use a browser to "do stuff" and it just happens that Firefox is where I landed. But if along with the render engine they stripped out a big swath of actual features, then it totally becomes a "what's the point" item. There used to be jokes that companies like Microsoft would infiltrate companies with the purpose of inducing them to make bad decisions as the prelim to torpedoing the company.

So I have a bit of a mental memo to "check back in a year" and see what all or little became of their big new "we want to focus on the user" speech from back then. Apparently the first step to focusing on the user is ... removing features?!

[erikts]

Opera 15 provides a mish-mash of Opera features and the Chrome interface
The beta of Opera's WebKit-based browser will be familiar to both Opera and Chrome fans.

The browser may have lost some features, but it has gained a more compatible, more widely supported rendering engine. The lost bells and whistles come in tandem with a more robust browser. Opera clearly felt it was a trade-off worth making—the company's task is now to convince its users of the same.

[allen]

But if along with the render engine they stripped out a big swath of actual features, then it totally becomes a "what's the point" item.

So I have a bit of a mental memo to "check back in a year" and see what all or little became of their big new "we want to focus on the user" speech from back then. Apparently the first step to focusing on the user is ... removing features?!

It's no longer a question of what they'll remove... but what will they bring back. They didn't "replace" the rendering engine under the hood, they completely scrapped opera. Every feature, every bit of familiarity is gone. All they kept was the logo.

[cyberdiva]

I've been using Opera since the days when I had to pay for it.  Somewhere along the way, it went from being my default browser to being #2, mostly because Firefox had a number of extensions I found valuable and because fewer web and software developers took Opera into account.  Still, there were a number of things I liked about Opera and in some ways found it better than Firefox.  But last week I downloaded a new copy of Opera 12.15 to use as my backup to Firefox on my new Win 7 64-bit laptop.  To my dismay, the Opera 12.15 I downloaded and installed was VERY different from the Opera 12.15 I have on my Win 7 64-bit desktop computer.  The laptop version was exceedingly stripped down, and I could at first find no way to customize it, no way even to tell it what homepage to use or what cookie settings I wanted.  There was no Tools menu anywhere.  After much gnashing of teeth, I finally found where it had hidden the Settings, and from there I was able to get it into usable form.  But the experience left a bad taste in my mouth.  And version 15 sounds a hundred times worse. 

So while I'll keep Opera 12.15 as my backup browser for now, I guess I'll start looking for a replacement for the future.  Alas, it may not be easy, since I'm very wary of Chrome, and I'm also not eager to use IE.   

[allen]

Can't even change the default search engine... grrr. Done testing until next update.

[Dirhael]

Been a loyal Opera user for many years now, but unfortunately this looks to be the end of it if this is the direction they're heading. There's pretty much *nothing* left of the features that made Opera the browser it was. Webkit means that just as in Chrome, there's no more perfectly smooth scrolling, mouse gestures might be there but they're just as unreliable as anything I've ever tried in Chrome, there's absolutely no customization worth a damn left, no MDI (wtf!), page loading feels slower than it used to, no (apparent at least) way to change keyboard and mouse gestures/shortcuts, handling of pages/tabs when you've got a lot of the open sucks just as bad as it does in FF and Chrome, unlike the older versions of Opera, and a whole lot more stuff either missing, broken or just working worse that in the older versions. Yes, perhaps a lot of these things will be fixed in the future, perhaps not, but I'm just not looking for a Chrome re-skin, which is what this feels like right now.

[dcm]

I am a long-time user of Opera, now using version 12.15.  To restore all the configuration options, tap the Opera button on the top left , under Open, and tick off "Show Menu Bar".

I tried the new Opera 15 Mail, but I prefer the integration of browsing and reading mail.

[Lashiec]

It's still way too early to evaluate the product, there are tons of things left to do before it can even rival Chrome in functionality, much less Opera. There are a couple of things I like though, like the "Discover" feature, which is much a visual version of Newspond, begging to be improved (Google Reader replacement ), or the fact that at long last we have a proper adblock extension (a side effect of the Chromium underpinnings). But not being able to install additional dictionaries, and thus, spellcheck this block of text, emphasizes the character of this build as an early preview, and not the next-gen version of Opera. I guess it's not as easy as say, getting Presto out and Chromium in, and the conversion requires rewriting big parts of the codebase from scratch.

Or maybe I'm being too optimistic, and Opera's big plan is still pulling a Nokia, and moving much of its effort to other more juicy things.

[TaoPhoenix]

But they apparently got the Chrome version numbering going! They moved from version 12.x to 15 in one go, and there's this snip from the release notes:
"...you will see new versions coming at much, much faster pace than it was with the classic, Presto-based line."

[pilgrim]

"...you will see new versions coming at much, much faster pace than it was with the classic, Presto-based line."

If I had needed a reason to stop updating that's it. I stopped updating Firefox at v3.6 and it's still my default browser.

When the practice of faster browser updates started it made me think of a row of little boys standing in line trying to see who could get it highest up the wall.
I know a lot of these companies were started by people who were young at the time they started them, but it looks like most of them are never going to grow up.

Not to mention the fact that so many of the changes are at odds with what many users, long-time users, want.

[Stoic Joker]

When the practice of faster browser updates started it made me think of a row of little boys standing in line trying to see who could get it highest up the wall.

...I've stayed away from said contest for the exact same reason ...(Never trust a rush job)... But then again I'm one of the few remaining fools that actually like IE.

[allen]

...I've stayed away from said contest for the exact same reason ...(Never trust a rush job)... But then again I'm one of the few remaining fools that actually like IE.

IE can hold its own these days, spoken as a user and developer. You're only a fool if it's a version older than 9

[pilgrim]

IE can hold its own these days, spoken as a user and developer. You're only a fool if it's a version older than 9

I guess that makes me a fool. 

On XP I stayed with IE 7 (+IE 7 PRO).
Windows 7 came with IE 8, I never saw anything in 9 that interested me. When 10 came out I updated, 20 minutes later I was back to 8 and intend to stay there.

On XP I only use IE for MS Updates, on 7 I can't even remember the last time I opened it.

[fenixproductions]

@pilgrim
There is IE8 for XP.
I would advise to upgrade not because IE8 is a lot better but because other software may use its libraries (and hence be vulnerable to any of its exploits).

[pilgrim]

@pilgrim
There is IE8 for XP.

I know.

I would advise to upgrade not because IE8 is a lot better but because other software may use its libraries (and hence be vulnerable to any of its exploits).

What other software? If you are talking about within the OS or OS related, XP was designed with IE6 and in spite of dire warnings I have never seen it stated that updating IE was essential.

I have a lot of software that has never been updated for a number of reasons, some I only have a license for a specific version, some the later versions have either become bloated or been changed in some way.
One of the most recent was Avira which earlier in the year removed the option to choose when to update the product, if I reach the point where it no longer works or definition updates are no longer available I will move to something else.

I am sure that nobody here would disagree with the statement that there is no such thing as 'complete security'. I have a range of security measures in place that probably go beyond what many people use and the last untoward thing I found on any of my computers was a tracking cookie, that was several years ago.
I am under no illusions that my systems are impregnable but I believe that more important than what version of a program you have is how you use it.
There are a small number of exceptions to that, Java for one, but I would not include IE in that group, in fact the only reason I updated to IE7 was because I preferred it.

I have no doubt that in years to come the same things will be said about IE* that are now being said about IE6 and there will still be large numbers of people who use the older versions without any problems.
I am not against updating things I just think that the issue gets out of hand at times.

New is not necessarily better, or safer. It's a question of balance and what I feel is right for my computers and the way I use them. If one of my systems did get exploited that's down to me, no-one else.

[barney]

New is not necessarily better, or safer.

Sorry, but that's not a true statement when it comes to IE.  Been proven - sometimes the hard way - too many times.  I still use it, in its latest incarnation, when a site requires it, but I excepted that with IE6 - too many attackers.  Wasn't wild about IE8, but IE9 and IE10 have provided significant security enhancements.  Still not my favorite browser, but it works.  Yeah, YMMV, but my mileage indicates updating.

[Tuxman]

Why are people still using Opera at all?

Even the IE is better nowadays.

[pilgrim]

barney,

I think the bottom line with IE is that it is no longer necessary although as far as I am aware it cannot actually be removed from the OS.

I only ever use it in XP for MS Updates, solely because it is easier. I could simply update from the notifications but the website provides more information if I need it.
Even though I have never updated FF beyond 3.6 if I want to take it out of the sandbox it normally runs in I can either change the user agent or use IE Tab and access MS with that.

I do not question that later versions of IE are safer than previous ones but again I come back to the point of how you use it.

That does not mean that you cannot get caught out but that is true of any version of any browser.

I would never advise other people not to update IE in the same way that I would never advise other people to follow some of the other computing practices I use, nor would I change them.

Why are people still using Opera at all?

Personal choice?

[Giampy]

Why are people still using Opera at all?

Even the IE is better nowadays.

A lot of people (me too) still use Windows XP. It prevents to install newer versions of IE (9 and 10).

[allen]

After some time playing with the browser, the way I think about Opera is changing. While it feels like a loss, that the old customizable Opera I know and love is likely dead and waiting to be burried . . . I haven't used it much in years anyway.  Opera may very well be positioning itself to be a good alternative to Chrome--a brilliant move, given how trendy it is right now to divorce google and their data mining. A few more features in place, I might embrace it. I really think that Opera would have been better served to wait a while longer before releasing their first preview, though. What's there now is really just a shell, VERY basic stuff is missing... it doesn't even have proper bookmarks/bookmarklets  support. I tried using it primarily over the weekend and while the browsing is nice and the extensions that are there are superior, I felt largely crippled.

[Tinman57]

  I know with XP, Internet Explorer can be removed completely.  By way of a court order, MS has posted the IE remover program on their website for those who absolutely want it off their system.  I chose to keep it since I use it with another front-end browser.