Here's another interpretation of MS's strategy with Win8 from El Reg:

The strategic thinking goes like this: Microsoft needs brute force to coerce a touch-based "ecosystem" into existence, and it's using Windows as the battering ram. Microsoft fears that if it loses "touch" to the iPad and iPhone and Android, then it loses its place in the consumer space altogether. These tablets are increasingly capable of content creation, it notes. And because of this, Microsoft is going to force-feed Windows 8 to millions of PC users on non-touch devices, for whom Metro is nothing but a hindrance, in the hope that the market provides content and applications "designed for Metro".

If Metro 8 is not decoupled from the central non-touch Windows UX, then enterprises will simply shun the upgrade. They don't have the budgets to retrain their staff. In the days when you were moving thousands of people from DOS to Windows, you could argue for a bigger training budget. But the cost/benefit advantage just isn't there in Windows 8. Microsoft doesn't have the power to move its market in the way Apple can – the market would prefer to shun the upgrade, as it did with Vista.

Perhaps Microsoft has justified this with the thought that the mere $4.74bn in quarterly revenues that the Windows division brings in is fairly inelastic – it won't vary much whether Windows is a hit or a flop - and that OEMs have to keep building and buying PCs. So it must have also reckoned that it can afford to take a hit in the short term to preserve Microsoft's relevance in the long term. Perhaps this isn't so crazy. Microsoft's Entertainment division (led by Xbox) now makes almost as much money as Windows.

I must say that trying to wade into Windows 8 blindly is not fun! Frustrated me to no end!

I purchased Lenovo laptops for both of my daughters for Christmas, and yesterday I was at one's house for dinner and decided to install a wireless router for her so she could use the laptop anywhere on her property. Also, my granddaughter has a new iPod and couldn't connect it to the web so it also made her very happy. Setup of the router was a breeze; I used the Linksys WRT54GL that I had "retired" recently at my house. Easy peasy. Then I fired up the new laptop to connect it wirelessly. Ha! So where the hell are the connection/network settings? Looked all around the stupid damn interface... Settings screen has a "WiFi" menu item. But only two items within: Airplane mode on or off, and Connect wirelessly - on or off. That's it. Doesn’t take you anywhere else. The damn machine wanted to keep sending me back to "Personalize your system", but personalization is not permitted until Windows is activated. Windows Activation section can't connect because IT IS NOT CONNECTED TO THE INTERNET!!! Where the hell are the connection settings?!

Took quite some time to find another pop-out menu along the right side - wiggling the mouse all up and down that side would occasionally cause it to appear. I finally clicked on an image of what looked like battery level bars - of course they were actually signal strength bars - and that allowed me to select a network, etc. So I got it done but I was mightily pissed off by the time I did. There is a manual, naturally, and I am one of the idiots that usually read manuals front to back religiously. But the manual was still sealed and looked to be one of those "Overview"-type manuals - probably need to download the read manual online. And my daughter had a lot of other people coming over for dinner so I had to get finished fast. I thought it would take a couple minutes, what with as many wireless connections I've done by now - I am a really old fart, after all! But without the manual it ain't an easy task to find even the necessary settings to setup the doggone machine.

I am now going to look for some full retail Windows 7 licenses to buy up a handful of them. Hopefully I won't have to mess with another Windows 8 OS for a long time. Hate it!

Jim

Each search I tried brought me an error page because of no connection. Same with the "Help" search. I think they all default to online searches anymore.

I would guess that the machine you searches on was already connected?

Jim

Strange actually the Windows 8 OOBE should stop at a list of WiFi networks and allow you to select and connect to one. I've actually been annoyed by it unnecessarily stopping there on some WiFi AIO machines that were already on active hardwired connections.

Had someone previously been fiddling with the machine causing the OOBE to not run?

It's just different, really. Windows has kept things relatively similar for 17 years, and it's hard to re-learn these things after so many years.

There's plenty of room for improvement, but Windows 8 is the first step for MS along the path to a new way of computing that was laid down by mobile devices. When tablets came around, they started changing how we compute, and it's likely that our desktop systems will be shrunk down into mobile devices at some point in the future, and more and more things will become connected and unified; Windows 8 just provides the framework for MS to keep up as the changes happen. I think that Windows 8 does a good job of balancing new and old; it's pretty easy once you get used to the charms bar and get the start screen customized the way that you want it. I'm actually thrilled to have a full-screen Start screen that gives me a nice clean and organized way to get at the multitude of apps that I install, and having my appointments, tasks, etc. on my start screen as live tiles.

I also think that people's attitude will change a bit when developers start making new and innovative apps. We've got new UI options, and I have no doubt that there will be some brilliant apps to enhance entertainment and productivity. I'm excited to see what Windows Blue will bring, too.

Just before Windows 8 I was starting to think about creating a more unified experience with my mobile devices, PC, HTPC, and so on with network and cloud apps, and when I first booted up Windows 8 my mind started reeling at the potential. I can't wait to see what the future brings!

is not selling that well

"Selling" isn't equal to "good", though - neither Linux nor Win8 are selling particularly well, but OS X and iOS are

The thing I personally like about Win8 definitely isn't Metro (well, a few parts of it, like the Start Screen, but *definitely* not the whole package!) - I do like the kernel optimizations, the hybrid shutdown, the optimization focus (less services, tickless kernel, memory deduplication(!)) etc., though.

Are you going to wait for Windows 9?

Listening to music from Windows Media Player, I am remembering why it no longer can minimize to its own toolbar: Microsoft said that too few people were using this feature. The company did not think it was of any importance that the feature both was hard to find and to understand how to start using.

And then it struck me: They will do the same with Windows 9 !:
"How many Win 8 users have been using the advanced features we also knew from Win 7 ?".

Well, we already know the answer to such question; most people does not look for features, because they don't know what to look for - many don't know there is something to look for at all - and they might even be scared to mess things up.

The call-home-"take part in improving Windows"-feature is the worst invention ever.

PS: Anyone got any idea how to get into advanced startup mode on a laptop with an old fashioned BIOS?

F8 no longer works in Windows 8. You are supposed to be able use SHIFT (and hold) + Restart to get into advanced starup mode - but I can't get it to work on my machine.

Brilliant idea of MS - effectively stops you using System Restore before windows loads if you get an infection !!!!

PS: Anyone got any idea how to get into advanced startup mode on a laptop with an old fashioned BIOS?

F2 or Delete

Yes I can get into the BIOS OK - just that F8 no longer does anything in Windows 8 so you can't boot to the advanced startup options. Apparently UEFI allows you to force advanced options but on older BIOS machines that isn't available. So to get to the advanced startup settings you have to boot into windows, to get into safe mode you have to boot windows!!!! Brilliant

How long before malware starts to appears that stops you accessing advanced startup options, safemode and system restore altogether. Won't take a genius to write malicious code to stop system refresh and reinstall too.

Given that almost no machines are supplied with a recovery disk or windows 8 installation disk (and anyway you have to know how to turn off secure boot to get an optical disk to boot at all) troubleshoot malware (such as the FBI crapware discussed elsewhere here) is going to be interesting to say the least!!!!

Recovery disk making is also not that easy to find since they obscured the backup system, and don't even call it backup anymore!!!!

F8 no longer does anything in Windows 8 so you can't boot to the advanced startup options. Apparently UEFI allows you to force advanced options but on older BIOS machines that isn't available. So to get to the advanced startup settings you have to boot into windows, to get into safe mode you have to boot windows!!!! Brilliant

I read today that Shift+F8 should work:

Turn on your Windows 8 PC and immediately press and hold Shift + F8 keys till use see Advanced Boot Options screen from where you can boot into the Safe Mode. Do note that you need to press and hold the hotkey while the POST is in progress.

http://www.intowindows.com/shortcut-key-to-boot-into-the-hidden-safe-mode-in-windows-8/

I tried it on my laptop - it didnt work, but this may be becuse of how Lenovo have it set up (it has a button that will start to a bunch of options including the boot menu).

Quote from: tomos on November 21, 2012, 11:32 AM

The new UI side of Win8 is aimed at tablets and as such should, I think, be compared with whatever it is they have on iPads and the relevant Androids. That's a world I know nothing about so I cant comment.

Okay, so how about comparing it to Win7 then? Are the "minor" annoyances you mention outweighed by some major benefit (for Win7 desktop users - or even XP users who may want to choose between Win7 and Win8)?

I just saw this promotional MS graphic doing the rounds, about the benefits of switching from XP to Win8 for businesses. I still can't see any compelling reasons why someone without a touch screen should switch from XP to Win8, rather than Win7. The main argument here seems to be "you'll get access to our store where we can sell you more stuff." That's hardly going to convince a lot of businesses...

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

^I wonder how long win7 support is - let's see ... extended support till 2020. Gives me time to think about alternatives and prepare.

Quote from: tomos on November 21, 2012, 11:32 AM

The new UI side of Win8 is aimed at tablets and as such should, I think, be compared with whatever it is they have on iPads and the relevant Androids. That's a world I know nothing about so I cant comment.

Okay, so how about comparing it to Win7 then? Are the "minor" annoyances you mention outweighed by some major benefit (for Win7 desktop users - or even XP users who may want to choose between Win7 and Win8)?

FWIW I'll answer this again - the "minor" annoyances were big enough in the end for me to stop using Win 8 for work with images. I usually tweak a windows install and add a share of software, but Windows 8 requires so much tweaking to make it usable in a desktop scenario (again, with images) that I just could not be bothered.

(My last answer was:)

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Quote from: tomos on November 21, 2012, 08:16 PM

Quote from: dr_andus on November 21, 2012, 03:02 PM

Okay, so how about comparing it to Win7 then? Are the "minor" annoyances you mention outweighed by some major benefit (for Win7 desktop users - or even XP users who may want to choose between Win7 and Win8)?

I cant say yet - I've only been messing around with it for a week - not using it that much.
I dont use 'the tiles' at all (I'm mostly not even online with the thing so most of those apps are useless to me).

Advantages for me:
I can easily change languages for the complete system.
AV works out of the box - there's been no nagging (some people might consider this a weakness e.g. for basic users)
Task Manager is more than enough for me - in win7 I use process explorer.

(Percieved or real) Disadvantages can mostly be overcome (see my Win8 Tips thread).

Otherwise I'd say it's very similar to Win 7. There's still going to be a learning curve though.
To be honest, if I had to get a new desktop right now, I'd go for windows 7.
But in a couple of months my answer would probably be different.