Author Topic: Is Linux just a hobby? (Read 141,983 times)

Tinman57 · « **Reply #75 on:** July 13, 2012, 01:23 AM »

Yep, that's what I'm going to, Linux with Ubuntu and a dual boot with XP. I'll be using Linux as the master boot....

dantheman · « **Reply #76 on:** July 13, 2012, 01:59 AM »

@Edvard,

Now we're getting into the deep end!

To be honest with you, Linux for me is like playing 3D chess.
I can play some chess (Windows) but 3D just doesn't make it in my head.
So, i'm trying to get more and more familiar with it by installing it and breaking it so that i can fix it.

I happen to "work" for a non-profit association and the folks know little about computers (let alone Linux!).
They get viruses and bring their computers to the shop @ $100 bucks a shot etc.
Their laptops have hard drive crashes, computers need replacement.
Those are big bucks for non-profits!

There are a zillion computers available on eBay that could be transformed with Linux and behave even better than Windows7 or 8.
I need to prepare the proposition by being more knowledgeable with Linux but especially so that they don't get lost in Linux.

Also, i'm fed up with the fact that Microsoft keeps on pushing us to new versions (which are often regressions) with a price tag that... well, you know the story.

Conclusion?

Well, Linux for me is a hobby still in the sense of not really taking the plunge (like yourself).
Why? Well, i have this CanoScan Lide70 that Linux still can't handle.
What do i do if i propose Linux to others and their scanners or whatever other application can't be connected?
Tell them to buy another scanner to have a free Linux system?

You don't leave a good first impression in those conditions now do you?

bobc4012 · « **Reply #77 on:** July 13, 2012, 03:02 AM »

Quote from: dantheman on July 11, 2012, 12:40 PM

Speaking of Zorin...

Cons:

-Opera couldn't be found in the Software Manager.

I had mentioned in my post that Opera can be installed via the Zorin Browser Manager. There is a slight difference in the way you get to going from Zorin_OS 5.2 to Zorin_OS 6. In 5.2, you selected from the menu "Applications -> System Tools -> Zorin Internet Browser Manager" -> Firefox, Opera, Google Chrome or Midori. In 6, it is under "Applications -> Internet -> Zorin Web Browser Manager". Once installed, going through the same menu sequence, you can uninstall the browsers (under each icon, you will see "Install" or "Uninstall") - similar to the install/uninstall concept used in the "Software Center".

dantheman · « **Reply #78 on:** July 13, 2012, 04:16 AM »

My apologies bobc4012!

Tuxman · « **Reply #79 on:** July 13, 2012, 04:35 AM »

Why do people want to use Linux like they use Windows? What is the case with all these graphical installers?

Maybe you would best go with openSUSE or PC-BSD and their one click installers.

dantheman · « **Reply #80 on:** July 13, 2012, 05:03 AM »

Tuxman! You live well your leitmotiv!

Must be the childhood memory of the first bicycle with learning wheels attached that makes its come back agin huh!

Tuxman · « **Reply #81 on:** July 13, 2012, 05:28 AM »

Don't you feel silly still having learning wheels attached to your car?

dantheman · « **Reply #82 on:** July 13, 2012, 05:36 AM »

Is that like those who can't take their phones off their ears when they drive?

BTW, if BobC4012 is still around, maybe he can tell me how to replace the Chrome icon from the panel with another like... Opera! yes!

bobc4012 · « **Reply #83 on:** July 13, 2012, 07:25 AM »

Quote from: dantheman on July 13, 2012, 04:16 AM

My apologies bobc4012!

"Fuhgedabotit" - none needed. I probably could have written the post a bit more clearly.

BTW, I'm not sure what distros you are tinkering with, but in Zorin 5.2, there is a utility called Ubuntu Tweak. This worked like the "old Ubuntu Tweak" and had a lot more options for tweaking, like those Windows Tweak utilities. In the System category, you could set the power options (ala lap-top power options - AC, never dim or power save - Battery - power dim, etc.). I was looking at Zorin 6 and they have the new "Ubuntu Tweak" that ships with Unity (or the Software Center). It has fewer options, which ticks me off'.

I should note that Zorin still has a few glitches. One thing about release 6, however, is you can change the Desktop Environment without logging off and back on. Select one of the three (Gnome, XP or Win. 7) and it changes it immediately.

bobc4012 · « **Reply #84 on:** July 13, 2012, 08:01 AM »

Quote from: dantheman on July 13, 2012, 05:36 AM

BTW, if BobC4012 is still around, maybe he can tell me how to replace the Chrome icon from the panel with another like... Opera! yes!

Hey Dan, if you want an Opera Icon, check the following directories.

/ usr/share/opera/styles/images or

/usr/share/icons/hicolor/256x256/apps

A little exploration in the icons directory and its sub-directories may be of value.

Regards.

bobc4012 · « **Reply #85 on:** July 13, 2012, 08:08 AM »

Quote from: bobc4012 on July 13, 2012, 08:01 AM

Quote from: dantheman on July 13, 2012, 05:36 AM

BTW, if BobC4012 is still around, maybe he can tell me how to replace the Chrome icon from the panel with another like... Opera! yes!

Hey Dan, if you want an Opera Icon, check the following directories.

/ usr/share/opera/styles/images or

/usr/share/icons/hicolor/256x256/apps

A little exploration in the icons directory and its sub-directories may be of value.

Regards.

I should have added, similar to Windows, right click on the item, select "Properties" and then click on the icon in the "window". On Ubuntu or Zorin (or other Linux), it will bring up a menu. Under "Places" (on the left), select "File System" and then you will see from "bin" to "var". Click on "usr", "share", etc. When you see the icon you want, then click (double-click?) on it and it will replace the existing icon.

Good luck.

dantheman · « **Reply #86 on:** July 13, 2012, 10:29 AM »

Thank you bobc4012!

I'm going to be away this weekend but as i get back,
i'll follow up on those good tips.

Getting used to where program and data files are is one of the hardest things for a Windows user.

bobc4012 · « **Reply #87 on:** July 14, 2012, 06:11 AM »

You are welcome Dan.

Glad to have been of help this time. Sometimes I know enough to be dangerous. I took a Unix certification course at the local CC about 20 years ago and file structure-wise not much has changed. Linux follows the Unix pattern. I find books like "Linux Unleashed" quite good (but can be expensive - I go to used bookstores and pick up an occasional book for $5 or $10 - may not be the latest, but sufficient for getting a clue as to what is going on). BTW, the certification course never did me any good job-wise, even though I had tons of programming experience.

Edvard · « **Reply #88 on:** July 15, 2012, 03:45 AM »

Quote from: dantheman on July 13, 2012, 01:59 AM

@Edvard,

Now we're getting into the deep end!

Yep, and it goes as deep as you're willing to swim...

Quote

To be honest with you, Linux for me is like playing 3D chess.
I can play some chess (Windows) but 3D just doesn't make it in my head.
So, i'm trying to get more and more familiar with it by installing it and breaking it so that i can fix it.

One of the best ways to learn it, IMO, but now that it's my only OS, I'm a little more interested in keeping it UN-broke

Quote

I happen to "work" for a non-profit association and the folks know little about computers (let alone Linux!).
They get viruses and bring their computers to the shop @ $100 bucks a shot etc.
Their laptops have hard drive crashes, computers need replacement.
Those are big bucks for non-profits!

I know, right? Seems Linux would be a great fit for a non-profit, but due to the fact that it's uncharted territory for even junior admins, it's just not doable for many of them. That, and a dependence on Windows-only software for administration and operations (an even larger consideration), and you have quite the hurdle to overcome. Understandable in a practical sense, but I still get the voice inside that says "It could be so different..."
http://www.techrepublic.com/blog/opensource/why-linux-is-a-perfect-fit-for-charities-and-non-profits/2209
http://www.phillipadsmith.com/2004/12/what-not-for-profit-organizations-need-to-know-about-free-software.html
http://textbookrevolution.org/files/pitp.pdf

Quote

There are a zillion computers available on eBay that could be transformed with Linux and behave even better than Windows7 or 8.
I need to prepare the proposition by being more knowledgeable with Linux but especially so that they don't get lost in Linux.

An admirable effort. Just don't get too flustered when someone inevitably starts yelling and pointing fingers because "on Windows, this was easy". They often turn out to be right. Your job will be to make it just as easy, granted that it's even possible.

Quote

Also, i'm fed up with the fact that Microsoft keeps on pushing us to new versions (which are often regressions) with a price tag that... well, you know the story.

Yes, that's one of the single largest complaints that can be levelled their way, but really, it's all in a business day in tech land. The hardware keeps getting better and better so you build larger and more complex software that takes advantage of the new goodies to be played with, all while still trying to maintain legacy support, driver compliance, shareholder value, yada yada yada, and suddenly people are calling you "bloated" and "greedy".
Jeez, can't win for losing...
Don't think Linux is immune, either. Compare the latest 3.something Linux kernel with the first iterations of 2.6.x and you'll see that the code and driver base has gotten a little thick.
The good side to that story is that it's all so customizable that you can slim down the fattest kernel and get it to run on almost anything. Windows, of course, not so much, but things like making sure the latest version is going to run on the kinds of machines non-profits can afford does nothing for their bottom line, and so it goes...

Quote

Conclusion?

Well, Linux for me is a hobby still in the sense of not really taking the plunge (like yourself).
Why? Well, i have this CanoScan Lide70 that Linux still can't handle.
What do i do if i propose Linux to others and their scanners or whatever other application can't be connected?
Tell them to buy another scanner to have a free Linux system?

You don't leave a good first impression in those conditions now do you?

Of course not. But you can have the same problems on Windows. That ancient lazer printer that works like a draft horse, and only goes down when the lights go out in a thunderstorm, but the drivers haven't been updated since Windows '98, and the shop just got offered a sweet bulk deal on Win 7 licenses?
Yeah, good luck explaining that one, too.
One trick I've used is to explain that the money saved on licensing can be put toward new hardware; like a sleek new wifi-connected printer that's running some form of Linux under the hood anyway.
I prefer to think that it's hardware manufacturers that can't handle Linux, rather than that Linux can't handle the hardware. After all, many folks have asked Canon for decent Linux support and they refuse to even allow others to do the job, much less do it themselves.
The first alternative that comes to mind would be to set up a Windows box as a print/scan server, and enable Internet Printing Protocol for printers, or Scan to FTP for scanners, but that's not for everybody...

As Joyce(?) once said, "ya pays yer money, and ya takes yer cherce"

bobc4012 · « **Reply #89 on:** July 15, 2012, 08:43 AM »

Quote from: Edvard on July 15, 2012, 03:45 AM

I prefer to think that it's hardware manufacturers that can't handle Linux, rather than that Linux can't handle the hardware. After all, many folks have asked Canon for decent Linux support and they refuse to even allow others to do the job, much less do it themselves.

It tends to be that H/W vendors don't want to put any support into Linux, because they feel there are insufficient users and no money in it for them. As far publishing I/Fs so the Open source people can write their own drivers, they are hesitant to do so because it may expose some of their "proprietary" implementation. Broadcom is another example, but when people who were using Linux shied away from H/W using Broadcom cards, it started to affect their bottom line (even, if a little bit). After all, a lot of Linux users still use Windows too and dual boot or use a VM. I read recently, that Broadcom is changing its position now.

A lot of ordinary people who were comfortable with XP commplained a lot about Visa and, even Windows 7. Wait until they have to buy a new box and get Windows 8. It will be like they just woke up on a planet in the Andromeda system. BTW, the same thing happened with Ubuntu when they moved to Unity in 11.04 (rumors are Windows 8 copied some of the good ideas from Unity). The GUI in Ubuntu up until 11.04 was not much different than Windows XP. You populated the screens with icons (Firefox, text editor, OpenOffice oor LibreOffice, etc.) and then it became point and click. You could surf the internet, do e-mail, IM, etc. Granted, the underlying support was different, but once set up (which, if you learned a few simple things about Ubuntu) was as easy (or even easier than) as doing it in Windows. I have played with Ubuntu 12.04 and am not thrilled with the Unity I/F for populating my desktop (or generating panels - like Window's task bar). I haven't tried the same thing with Windows 8 Metro, primarily because I could not get any of the three "preview" versions to install (on a Win. 7 machine with ample memory and HD space (1TB)). When I get sufficient time, I'll give them another shot - maybe I'll get lucky.

Edvard · « **Reply #90 on:** July 15, 2012, 01:56 PM »

Jumped the Ubuntu ship before the Unity. Never looked back. I was using Xubuntu anyways, so I don't know if I would have noticed a difference.
I hear Unity works good in a pad computer environment, much like how Windows 8 was obviously designed for pad devices as well.

40hz · « **Reply #91 on:** July 15, 2012, 03:40 PM »

Went over to Mint and Crashbang a while back since I didn't like the noises Canonical was making about Unity even before they went all in on it.

I still prefer Xfce over any other desktop for day to day Linux use.

dantheman · « **Reply #92 on:** July 16, 2012, 09:32 AM »

Edvard,

I'm back! But times are busy (can't say they never were!).
You've given so much food for thought, i don't know where to begin!
Will have to come over and re-read alot of things here.

My previous comment was short on one final "hic" that's been lingering on...
What happens if Linux gets some major virus?
A friend of mine said that it's probably going to happen one day.
Will Linux crew have the resources to fight it off?
Aren't we going to end up in dog chase tail scenario like Windows (and now Mac)?

Before we go any further, can i ask who that Joyce is or was?

40hz · « **Reply #93 on:** July 16, 2012, 03:12 PM »

Quote from: dantheman on July 16, 2012, 09:32 AM

My previous comment was short on one final "hic" that's been lingering on...
What happens if Linux gets some major virus?
A friend of mine said that it's probably going to happen one day.
Will Linux crew have the resources to fight it off?
Aren't we going to end up in dog chase tail scenario like Windows (and now Mac)?

Before we go any further, can i ask who that Joyce is or was?

The Linux/BSD/Gnu crowd is more than up for whatever gets thrown at them. If malware becomes an issue, it will be speedily dealt with - as the Morris Internet worm shutdown so neatly demonstrated. And that response was initiated and accomplished with virtually zero input or assistance from the government.

Many in the F/OSS camp are also considered top talent in the IT world. This isn't amateur hour or a social club. This is a serious crowd doing serious systems programming. If viruses become an issue, they'll be dealt with. And in a completely open manner.

Try getting that anyplace else.

superboyac · « **Reply #94 on:** July 16, 2012, 06:06 PM »

For me, mainstream Linux use hinges on one factor:
being able to install third party software on any (or most) distros without much noodling or programmer-skills necessary. like Windows or something as easy.

Most people will argue, however, that that is fundamentally opposed to the Linux way of life. i don't agree. I think if people really wanted to, it can be done. But I get the sense that the Linux crowd intentionally prefers things to be more complicated, even if it doesn't have to be. This will all happen naturally when the time comes, most likely. PC users will never become apple users, except for the most light-users. So the only alternative to hardcore windows users is Linux. And if Windows continues to piss people off, they'll see more converts to linux. And as the linux community grows, then this whole fragmentation issue will start getting resolved.

Edvard · « **Reply #95 on:** July 17, 2012, 05:53 AM »

+1 what 40Hz said

Quote from: dantheman on July 16, 2012, 09:32 AM

Before we go any further, can i ask who that Joyce is or was?

James Joyce, but that quote may or may not be his; the last word in that quote has been rendered 'chance' and 'choice' as well, and earlier than Joyce was writing, but I digress...

Quote from: superboyac on July 16, 2012, 06:06 PM

But I get the sense that the Linux crowd intentionally prefers things to be more complicated, even if it doesn't have to be.

I used to think the opposite; that it wasn't the Linux crowd making things more complicated, it was the outsiders pointing out how complex it was, and they would say that only because they simply didn't know how to run a decent compiler.
Then I saw this:
http://dwm.suckless.org/

Quote

Because dwm is customized through editing its source code, it’s pointless to make binary packages of it. This keeps its userbase small and elitist. No novices asking stupid questions.

Thankfully, the only group that would label itself 'small and elitist' are exactly that; small and elitist, so you can safely ignore them.

FTR - I use Debian; ergo the easiest package manager on the planet: Apt
... and if I want to get adventurous, there's always the "configure -> make -> make install" dance (quite the jig, I assure you...).

Tuxman · « **Reply #96 on:** July 17, 2012, 06:39 AM »

Quote from: Edvard on July 17, 2012, 05:53 AM

I use Debian; ergo the easiest package manager on the Planet

Debian uses yum?

barney · « **Reply #97 on:** July 17, 2012, 07:29 AM »

Quote from: Tuxman on July 17, 2012, 06:39 AM

Quote from: Edvard on July 17, 2012, 05:53 AM
I use Debian; ergo the easiest package manager on the Planet
Debian uses yum?

No, thank God and the developers

!

Tuxman · « **Reply #98 on:** July 17, 2012, 07:32 AM »

There was a time I shared your POV. Then I found the yum history command.

bobc4012 · « **Reply #99 on:** July 17, 2012, 08:13 AM »

Quote from: superboyac on July 16, 2012, 06:06 PM

For me, mainstream Linux use hinges on one factor:
being able to install third party software on any (or most) distros without much noodling or programmer-skills necessary. like Windows or something as easy.

Most people will argue, however, that that is fundamentally opposed to the Linux way of life. i don't agree. I think if people really wanted to, it can be done. But I get the sense that the Linux crowd intentionally prefers things to be more complicated, even if it doesn't have to be. This will all happen naturally when the time comes, most likely. PC users will never become apple users, except for the most light-users. So the only alternative to hardcore windows users is Linux. And if Windows continues to piss people off, they'll see more converts to linux. And as the linux community grows, then this whole fragmentation issue will start getting resolved.

Actually, in the Ubuntu (and some of the other distros), installing S/W is as easy as on Windows. There are a few ways of doing it. One way is to install via the Synaptic Package Manager - search for what type of function you want, check the box and then click on apply and it installs. Another way is via the Software Center. You can set up "Software Sources" to include "proprietary 'freeware'". A third alternative is to download a Debian package (.deb) and use GDebi to install it (GDebi is a GUI to install .deb packages). You don't get the numerous messages that you get when you install a Windows application (e.g., a typical ".exe" file), so in a sense it is easier than Windows. In Ubunti (and erlated) erlease prior to 11.04, the desktop Environment was much like Windows XP. Clicked on Menu (vs Start) and select the category and the installation method.

Now, granted, you aren't going to install Windows apps this way, just any comparable (or Linux only) apps. If you have Window apps you wish to install, you need to install WINE. It handles a significant number of Windows applications - BUT NOT ALL (you can use VirtualBox to install Windows and run Windows apps that won't run under WINE). Old DOS only apps can also be run in DOSBox or the DOS Emulator. Their is a glitch with the DOS Emulator that stops it from running after you install. I did report the problem a couple of years ago, but it has not been fixed. The Config file needs to be tweaked. I do it by going to /usr/bin and executing dosemu (or xdosemu) in the Admin ID (you set one up when you install Linux, just like you do with Windows). When you execute dosemu, you get an error message telling you how to correct the problem (usually copying the "fix" text, opening a terminal window and type sudo followed by pasting the "fix" text. You will be prompted for the admin password, the fix made and then the DOS Emulator can be invoked by clicking on the icon.

BTW, I disagree with your statement that most Linux users prefer the hard way of doing things. In the early years, there wasn't much of a choice - X WIndows was the only way to get Windows (as I recall) back in the early-to-mid 90s). It was still in the primitive stages like MS-DOS and eventually Windows 1. Windows 3.1, was the first (IMO) significant improvement to Windows. Unlike Windows, Linux has come a long way with GUI environments. You can choose from a number of them with most distros. With Windows, you are stuck with the one that is shipped. Yes, there are a few open source Windows GUI environments (e.g., Classical Explorer for Windows 7 and maybe another or two). ut you have to search for them on the internet, download them and install them. With packages like the Synaptic Package Manager or Software Center, you can just select those you want (click on the check box), click apply and let them install. Next time when you log on, you will see an icon to click on and select the desktop you want.

After a while, you may find Linux to be an enjoyable "hobby".