Author Topic: Windows 8 is just a Service/crapware pack for Windows 7 (Read 56,585 times)

Innuendo · « **Reply #25 on:** March 25, 2012, 12:04 AM »

Quote from: Carol Haynes on March 24, 2012, 08:46 PM

I don't want to reopen the can of worms but I really can't see why people are still upset about ribbons. Having been using then now for 5 years (!) I have to say I wouldn't want to go back to the bloody silly toolbars in Office 2003 and earlier.

These days the only people who gripe about the ribbons are people who never gave it an honest chance & are dead-set against change. Coincidentally, those people usually refuse to move away from the Classic Start Menu interface and/or are Linux users (Sorry, Zaine!).

If you put some time into re-learning the way the program works with the ribbon interface you will most assuredly have a bit of a hard time adapting, but once you have, you will find yourself accomplishing things faster than you could with the old 2003-style menus.

wraith808 · « **Reply #26 on:** March 25, 2012, 01:02 AM »

Brad Wardell of Stardock Lays into Microsoft over Windows 8 in Annual Customer Report (via Shacknews)

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Wardell also lays into Microsoft's new operating system, Windows 8, claiming that it "will be considered a general failure" if it doesn't fix a few user interface issues: being unable to run entirely as a regular desktop without Metro; having no "realistic" way to organise Metro programs; and relying users to mouse-over elements to find out what they are.

Of course, Stardock will have quite strong opinions in this frield, as it makes a vast array of programs tweaking the Windows interface. Still, Wardell is concerned that Windows 8 might be so offputting that people simply won't switch, and there'll be no market to sell its tools to.

mahesh2k · « **Reply #27 on:** March 25, 2012, 03:59 AM »

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These days the only people who gripe about the ribbons are people who never gave it an honest chance & are dead-set against change. Coincidentally, those people usually refuse to move away from the Classic Start Menu interface and/or are Linux users (Sorry, Zaine!).

Are you kidding? I am sure you never heard about HUD and Gnome3 interface, LIbre ribbon interface. Linux users are also equally annoyed at some of the changes which are made for the sake of it. As for not giving a chance, you're seriously assuming that people who type 1500+ words per hour on word processor are going to push cut or paste icons instead of using shortkeys. Then again, you're making that point as if people who appreciate the ribbon interface are majority. I don't see DTP community making that sort of claim. Using shiny stuff that does nothing better over a shortkey is just distraction. What ribbon interface offers better over menus and shortkeys? Is CTR+C and CTR+V less usable compared to clicking icon in ribbon? Let's face it, just because it is shiny and people are getting used to it because they have no choice in windows world doesn't mean they never tried it or head-set against it. Some things are just distractions. If ribbon were to be that productive I don't see same people making that remark against chrome (and now firefox) for getting rid of toolbar. They're also using single icon click menu and shortkeys for the operation and getting rid of shiny bloated toolbars. Making use of real-estate on bigger screen is two sword argument.

If you're going to offer linux users some bloated ribbon interface over more efficient text editors like vim/emacs then surely I find it hard to buy that type of argument. Shiny stuff like ribbon interface and metro for the sake of changes is clutter or distraction. It offers nothing usable. I am all eyes and ears to know what it offers better over menus and shortkeys.

Just because 100$ tablets are selling like hotcakes, company like Microsoft is losing it's attention over desktop market and assuming that even desktop is moving to tablets. I don't see cheap tablet displays to replace current LCD's. That part of future is still beyond the reach of average users pocket. If anyone is showing productivity using GIMP on 7'' tab then I must say hats off to that person. Biggest displays are made for the reason. That's why desktop market shouldn't be ignored. This is where microsoft is going to fail. Microsoft is trying to focus on tablets which is hardly going to make any difference to portable/desktop market. Tablet trend and mobile apps stuff is fad, it has nothing to offer to regular business or any type of serious work.

Carol Haynes · « **Reply #28 on:** March 25, 2012, 10:54 AM »

Quote from: mahesh2k on March 25, 2012, 03:59 AM

As for not giving a chance, you're seriously assuming that people who type 1500+ words per hour on word processor are going to push cut or paste icons instead of using shortkeys.

Since when have shortcuts not worked in Word? Cut and Paste keys are the same as for every other window's app.

Back on track - windows 8:

Have you noticed that you can't use cut and paste between desktop and Metro apps!!! Really useful!

Shades · « **Reply #29 on:** March 26, 2012, 12:10 PM »

In the pre-ribbon days for most of what I did with MSOffice really took 2-3 clicks. Using the same functionality with the ribbon-versions of Office it takes 4-5 clicks to do exactly the same. That is my main gripe with the ribbon, although the lost screen estate comes as a very close second. Hiding it adds another click to the already impressive number of useless clicks necessary.

Really, the only reason why I still use MSOffice is the fact that the functionality I require is hidden behind even more clicks in LibreOffice. If they would fix that, I jump ship in an instant. I am all for change if it improves workflow, but for me the ribbon is not an improvement (at all), hence I don't want the change. Unfortunately I hardly have any choice in the matter.

And now...the Metro interface? Really? I have to give it to Microsoft, they managed to add insult to injury in a such a major way I never thought could be possible.

The only thing I am interested in are the new server editions from Windows. In a Microsoft video I saw some impressive functional (ribbon-less) improvements in that division.

db90h · « **Reply #30 on:** March 26, 2012, 12:23 PM »

Quote from: Shades on March 26, 2012, 12:10 PM

The only thing I am interested in are the new server editions from Windows. In a Microsoft video I saw some impressive functional (ribbon-less) improvements in that division.

Have you ever tried to use a server edition for non-server (e.g. workstation) purposes? By default, Internet Explorer is locked down so tight you literally can't browse the web, lol. So, of course, everyone installs Firefox. Also, they are far from being 'user friendly' in general - as far average user appeal goes, and even technical user appeal. They are designed for specific tasks, and usually tasks far in excess of what any home user needs. After all, Windows 7 (all normal editions of Windows NT) will work fine as a server of all types themselves, even including (optionally) IIS. However, the UI and default settings are a lot different.

Carol Haynes · « **Reply #31 on:** March 26, 2012, 12:56 PM »

Server Editions are a lot of money too ...

Shades · « **Reply #32 on:** March 26, 2012, 01:52 PM »

Yep, for a market they have to deal with in a serious (and professional) matter. So who can blame them for taking the consumer side so lightly (and frivolously)...

cranioscopical · « **Reply #33 on:** March 26, 2012, 02:01 PM »

Quote from: Innuendo on March 25, 2012, 12:04 AM

These days the only people who gripe about the ribbons are people who never gave it an honest chance & are dead-set against change. Coincidentally, those people usually refuse to move away from the Classic Start Menu interface and/or are Linux users (Sorry, Zaine!).

If you put some time into re-learning the way the program works with the ribbon interface you will most assuredly have a bit of a hard time adapting, but once you have, you will find yourself accomplishing things faster than you could with the old 2003-style menus.

I beg to differ on that. I switched to MS Office 2007 when it first came out. I spent quite a bit of time working with the ribbon in the belief that it would be beneficial to me if I put some effort into it. From starting with an open mind, I've come to dislike it. Although I don't care for change for the sake of change I'm not unable to adapt, I'm required to do so all the time. I don't use Linux either

Deozaan · « **Reply #34 on:** March 27, 2012, 09:33 AM »

Quote from: Innuendo on March 25, 2012, 12:04 AM

These days the only people who gripe about the ribbons are people who never gave it an honest chance & are dead-set against change.

That's because everyone else was smart enough to switch to an alternate product that does the same thing without the ribbon UI. No use complaining about it 5 years later when you can just change products and get on with your life.

40hz · « **Reply #35 on:** March 27, 2012, 03:37 PM »

I have to agree with Shades, Deo, Crainioscopical, and others regarding Microsoft's new interface "innovations."

What's good (in real terms) is what works and is understandable for the users - not some designer or developer. And all the wishful thinking in the world isn't going to change that.

Much of what Microsoft is doing and saying these days reminds me of the misguided efforts and arguments to replace traditional mathematics with "The New Math;" and English grammar with "Transformational Grammar" in public education.

Those who suffered through those two fiascoes will know exactly what I mean. $:-\$

cranioscopical · « **Reply #36 on:** March 27, 2012, 06:47 PM »

Quote from: 40hz on March 27, 2012, 03:37 PM

Those who suffered through those two fiascoes will know exactly what I mean.

No they won't, the poor devils still can't read!

wraith808 · « **Reply #37 on:** March 27, 2012, 07:55 PM »

Actually, "New Math" does work, and does increase my computational time... if we're talking about the same thing. /shrugs

superboyac · « **Reply #38 on:** March 27, 2012, 08:45 PM »

Quote from: 40hz on March 27, 2012, 03:37 PM

I have to agree with Shades, Deo, Crainioscopical, and others regarding Microsoft's new interface "innovations."

What's good (in real terms) is what works and is understandable for the users - not some designer or developer. And all the wishful thinking in the world isn't going to change that.

Much of what Microsoft is doing and saying these days reminds me of the misguided efforts and arguments to replace traditional mathematics with "The New Math;" and English grammar with "Transformational Grammar" in public education.

Those who suffered through those two fiascoes will know exactly what I mean. $:-\$

I've been kind of pondering and half-studying the way I was taught stuff in elementary school. The New Math stuff seemed to have been very minimal, but I do remember some minor things about it. I don't really understand what happened...but around 4th grade, I was whisked away into math and sciences, while art and history got pushed into the very far background. I don't know if it was me, my parents, teachers, or what. it's weird because of how much I like art and history. Not sure what happened there. I never came back to those things until after college.

mwb1100 · « **Reply #39 on:** March 27, 2012, 08:58 PM »

Quote from: cranioscopical on March 27, 2012, 06:47 PM

Quote from: 40hz on March 27, 2012, 03:37 PM
Those who suffered through those two fiascoes will know exactly what I mean.

No they won't, the poor devils still can't read!

Which means they'll have to learn Windows 8 by tile and error.

To sum up, Win8 will be a pane.

cranioscopical · « **Reply #40 on:** March 27, 2012, 09:46 PM »

Quote from: mwb1100 on March 27, 2012, 08:58 PM

Which means they'll have to learn Windows 8 by tile and error.

To sum up, Win8 will be a pane.

Unless they can swing a way to run Linux as an app — a sort of Metro Gnome.

Carol Haynes · « **Reply #41 on:** March 27, 2012, 10:08 PM »

That's an interesting approach actually. Just turn Metro into a launchpad for real (virtual) operating systems!

40hz · « **Reply #42 on:** March 27, 2012, 10:34 PM »

Quote from: Carol Haynes on March 27, 2012, 10:08 PM

That's an interesting approach actually. Just turn Metro into a launchpad for real (virtual) operating systems!

That's one of the most intelligent suggestions I've heard so far for Metro.

Which, of course, immediately spells doom for it.

4wd · « **Reply #43 on:** March 28, 2012, 12:36 AM »

Quote from: wraith808 on March 27, 2012, 07:55 PM

Actually, "New Math" does work, and does increase my computational time...

I think I'd prefer any "New Math" to reduce my computational time so I can get on and do other things.

wraith808 · « **Reply #44 on:** March 28, 2012, 02:42 AM »

Quote from: 4wd on March 28, 2012, 12:36 AM

Quote from: wraith808 on March 27, 2012, 07:55 PM
Actually, "New Math" does work, and does increase my computational time...

I think I'd prefer any "New Math" to reduce my computational time so I can get on and do other things.

I meant reduce... $:-\$

Carol Haynes · « **Reply #45 on:** March 28, 2012, 08:20 AM »

Pursuant to another thread can we bring this back on topic please

40hz · « **Reply #46 on:** March 28, 2012, 10:44 AM »

Ok people. Carol has spoken!

Back on topic:

Some additional observations at Dedoimedo.com

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Windows 8 Consumer Preview - One word: fail

By now, everyone and their grandmother have give you a politically correct review of what Windows 8 is all about, replete with lovely screenshots taken in virtual machines. While busy fellating Microsoft, they seem to have forgotten to give you an honest, real take on how you, the consumer, will handle this new operating system.

I really liked the early, Developer Preview version, and even dedicated some four articles explaining how to disable Metro, how to use the built-in recovery options and how to tweak the system to your liking. But now, Windows 8 is facing 180 degrees from where it's been just a few short months back. So let me show what the Consumer Preview is really all about, on a physical machine.
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One comment brought a chuckle when I read it. It points out something that has been given insufficient emphasis IMO in many editorials and reviews. And that's the fact that creating things and making money becomes much more difficult when you transition from using a full computer to using an appliance-like content delivery device.

Whereas the traditional PC goal was to encourage creation and full engagement from the end user, the new devices seems more intent on programming their owners to consume and participate. But such participation will be restricted to officially sanctioned channels such as monitored chatrooms and large social networks...

[attach]

Carol Haynes · « **Reply #47 on:** March 28, 2012, 11:57 AM »

Balancing article on ZDNet:

Full article

Not sure I agree with him (and ZDNet do seem to be MS apologists these days).

40hz · « **Reply #48 on:** March 28, 2012, 12:48 PM »

^Hmm...maybe that's a slightly politer way of saying "just lie back and enjoy it" huh?

BTW: That's pretty much what Microsoft's main talking point was at CeBIT: "Don't fight it. You can't stop it. And too bad if you don't like it." Interesting that Hess' cap comment so closely follows official Microsoft wording.

I think ZDNet has largely become a shill for Microsoft. Something I've said for the last several years now. Call it "enlightened self-interest" I suppose. If Big Red tanked tomorrow they'd all have to go find real jobs over at Ziff.

frogmanalien · « **Reply #49 on:** April 03, 2012, 07:06 AM »

I kind of agree with a lot of the opinions being offered here... but it's a real shame. I don't like the tile UI that much, and I certainly don't like the weirdness of the "start menu"- but I'm glad to see Microsoft innovating/trying something different- just like with Windows Phone (which also looks to be a flop) they're actually standing out from the rest of the crowd and doing something unusual with their OS.

I initially struggled with the Ribbon (and there's a great post here http://blogs.msdn.com/b/jensenh/archive/2008/03/12/the-story-of-the-ribbon.aspx about it) - but there's two reasons why I came to settle down with it- use and acceptance that I'm not all IT users. You've got to use it day-in, day-out in order to BREAK the habit of the old system- and that's the main reason people become efficient with desktop/office OS (come on, how many of us really associate scissors with moving text on a written page- an appalling visual metaphor!). And I also realised I'm a power user, and I'm happy with shortcut keys and such like therefore changes in UI probably aren't aimed at me- they're aimed at people who haven't used computers for years, or are young and developing their skills.

Now Windows 8 offers a similarly scary set of changes - some of which are double-edged swords (new ui: new learning curve, but a change to make tablet PC's work like desktops; new marketplace: a secure way to get apps to people (and to get people to pay for them- great for donation coders, surely!), but with Microsoft vetting)- but I'm excited about change!