Author Topic: Microsoft unveils new UI prototype - Windows 8? (Read 47,171 times)

Lashiec · « **Reply #25 on:** June 02, 2011, 10:07 PM »

It's telling that the company that develops that OS for idiots is smart enough to keep their desktop and tablet/smartphone OS offers separate instead of offering everything and the kitchen sink. And Lion won't include as many tablet-inspired features as Windows 8.

But then again, Windows 7 was highly flexible, and you could add and remove a great number of components, so I expect Windows 8 to follow its example, making the above problem a non-issue. And system requirements are said to be even lower, which is highly impressive on its own.

I would pay to see someone developing software with a tablet, though. Using Eclipse. Or doing software modeling with Visual Paradigm. Or using a virtual machine running any other operating system. Again, seriously guys, do you really think someone is going to force users to run tablets? Now, high-end tablets with their own monitor and peripherals is another matter entirely.

Renegade · « **Reply #26 on:** June 03, 2011, 01:58 AM »

I just about died when I read this title:

Microsoft becoming Apple with Windows 8 control freakery?

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/06/02/tablets_go_closed/

But my panic was short lived:

Quote

Microsoft is becoming more like Apple by bringing some hardware discipline to Windows 8 tablets, to the annoyance of OEMs who've had decades of freedom.

That's probably a good thing.

steeladept · « **Reply #27 on:** June 03, 2011, 05:31 AM »

Quote from: app103 on June 02, 2011, 09:01 PM

We are not all going to jump to using tablets, forsaking our desktop computers. We are not all going to move all our data to the cloud. We are not all going to live in our browsers. We are not all going to stop being productive producers and switch to being happy little idiot consumers that just need a few icons we can select with our chubby fingers to view what someone else has created (most likely created on a different OS designed for productivity).

I wish (and hope) that that were true. However, if industry pushes in that direction by making apps that only work in that area, then tablets are going to become prevalent. As they become prevalent, traditional machines will become stagnant and slowly fade away. People will stop programming them, electronic manufacturers will stop producing the parts, and they will just slowly become a relic of the past. It won't be soon, but it will happen if the majority of "the masses" do.

You can already see the decline of the desktop PC as laptops become as powerful. There are fewer available, and they have fewer options. The parts are becoming more expensive such that laptops are quickly becoming the preferred alternative for equal pricing (not there yet, but very close). If tablets become the new "laptop", I can see laptops quickly taking place of desktops for the occasionally mobile. That will drive prices lower for the laptops which will then make desktops even less desirable for most people. This, in turn, will actually drive the prices up for desktop equipment (the manufacturers will generally just leave the market for niche players that will be the custom makers of today) and make it the enthusiast piece of equipment. As it becomes more antiquated, mainstream manufacturers will start to drop these lines as marginally profitable and so components will become scarcer and the updates will be fewer and less innovative. This will mean enthusiasts will have to come up with solutions or abandon the market for more mainstream alternatives. As that occurs it will only be the richest enthusiasts, niche market players, or the corporations that absolutely REQUIRE the equipment that will pay the big dollars for the custom equipment that will then be required. Soon after that, the companies will migrate to new platforms as it becomes cheaper to replace than to maintain the legacy at which point even the niche players will move on because there is no business left to maintain. At that point the richest enthusiasts will have moved on because that is the way it goes.

Will this occur in our lifetime? Probably not, but the drop-off of the general enthusiast to something else probably will, and that is when you will be living in your browser with touchscreen everything even if you don't want to. Well that or give up on computing altogether.

Renegade · « **Reply #28 on:** June 03, 2011, 05:38 AM »

I would love to have a tablet that has the power of a desktop. With ports for external monitors (4), a keyboard, mouse, printer, speakers, etc.

I think that will happen relatively soon. Give it a few years. Manufacturers will realize that in addition to cute icons, people want productivity and portability. Laptops are marginally portable. Tablets are very portable.

Deozaan · « **Reply #29 on:** June 03, 2011, 05:50 AM »

Quote from: Renegade on June 03, 2011, 05:38 AM

I would love to have a tablet that has the power of a desktop. With ports for external monitors (4), a keyboard, mouse, printer, speakers, etc.

I agree! I'd love to be able to carry my computer around with me wherever I go and then connect it to a public (or private) docking station for bigger monitor, keyboard and mouse.

If computers were the size of mobile phones, or rather, if mobile phones were as powerful as desktop PCs, with a docking station port, it would be awesome! Imagine all the places that would most likely provide keyboard, video (monitor), mouse, and internet. You could have your PC anywhere you wanted, no need for cloud.

steeladept · « **Reply #30 on:** June 03, 2011, 06:03 AM »

Quote from: Deozaan on June 03, 2011, 05:50 AM

Quote from: Renegade on June 03, 2011, 05:38 AM
I would love to have a tablet that has the power of a desktop. With ports for external monitors (4), a keyboard, mouse, printer, speakers, etc.

I agree! I'd love to be able to carry my computer around with me wherever I go and then connect it to a public (or private) docking station for bigger monitor, keyboard and mouse.

If computers were the size of mobile phones, or rather, if mobile phones were as powerful as desktop PCs, with a docking station port, it would be awesome! Imagine all the places that would most likely provide keyboard, video (monitor), mouse, and internet. You could have your PC anywhere you wanted, no need for cloud.

That is sort of where I think we are going rather quickly if truth be told. I can imagine a future where there are screens everywhere (even internet cafe type places with screens) that are just phone docking stations. These screens have a keyboard, and maybe a mouse or touch screen (a new KVM?), but that the phone is the brains, storage, network connection (why not since it is already built in - no need to have that at the KVM), and applauncher. Each person would have their PC with them always (more or less), and the docputer is nothing more than an interface to the phone so you don't have to deal with the miniscule screen for long periods of time. If I am right and we are going there, I will be on the front edge. I think that would be awesome. My fear, though, is they will try to move the apps and the storage to the "cloud" and that, in my opinion, would be BAD!

Ideally I would want to be able to use it from removable storage (only thing on the phone would be the OS and the network stack) where I keep both apps and data on something like a smart card so they can be used regardless of if I am in network range or not. I mean what happens if I don't pay my bill one month? Or switch carriers, or just even go out to the woods? Do I loose everything? Probably the way they are going now. To me, that is not acceptable and I would want to be able to use the phone as my computer regardless of any of these conditions. However, if that were to be accomplished - I am there!

40hz · « **Reply #31 on:** June 03, 2011, 06:17 AM »

Quote from: Deozaan on June 03, 2011, 05:50 AM

Quote from: Renegade on June 03, 2011, 05:38 AM
I would love to have a tablet that has the power of a desktop. With ports for external monitors (4), a keyboard, mouse, printer, speakers, etc.

I agree! I'd love to be able to carry my computer around with me wherever I go and then connect it to a public (or private) docking station for bigger monitor, keyboard and mouse.

If computers were the size of mobile phones, or rather, if mobile phones were as powerful as desktop PCs, with a docking station port, it would be awesome! Imagine all the places that would most likely provide keyboard, video (monitor), mouse, and internet. You could have your PC anywhere you wanted, no need for cloud.

Why stop with someone else providing just the monitor, keyboard, mouse and internet link?

Have them throw in a standardized computing platform (i.e. PC) and all you'd need is a USB flash drive. Just boot from that.

Your choice of OS, plus all your apps and data, on one convenient little hunk of plastic you could wear around your neck or drop in your pocket...

Who would need to own a CPU if we did it that way?

Kidding, just kidding. (Sorta.)

Renegade · « **Reply #32 on:** June 03, 2011, 06:21 AM »

Quote from: Deozaan on June 03, 2011, 05:50 AM

If computers were the size of mobile phones, or rather, if mobile phones were as powerful as desktop PCs, with a docking station port, it would be awesome! Imagine all the places that would most likely provide keyboard, video (monitor), mouse, and internet. You could have your PC anywhere you wanted, no need for cloud.

RUN! Run NOW! Grab a gun or knife and all the cash you can. Cut up your credit cards!

The cloud zealots are already en route to you right now! Your heresy will not be tolerated by them!

RUN~!

Deozaan · « **Reply #33 on:** June 03, 2011, 06:33 AM »

Quote from: 40hz on June 03, 2011, 06:17 AM

Quote from: Deozaan on June 03, 2011, 05:50 AM
If computers were the size of mobile phones, or rather, if mobile phones were as powerful as desktop PCs, with a docking station port, it would be awesome! Imagine all the places that would most likely provide keyboard, video (monitor), mouse, and internet. You could have your PC anywhere you wanted, no need for cloud.

Why stop with someone else providing just the monitor, keyboard, mouse and internet link?

Have them throw in a standardized computing platform (i.e. PC) and all you'd need is a USB flash drive. Just boot from that.

Your choice of OS, plus all your apps and data, on one convenient little hunk of plastic you could wear around your neck or drop in your pocket...

I wouldn't want that, because that's almost like just having your data in the cloud. I mean, it's great if you just want to get online, and it's almost basically what's already available with the Chromebooks running Chrome OS. But what if the publicly provided PC couldn't handle the games I wanted to play that my powerful rig at home could?

That's why I'd like to be able to buy a customized computer (not really a mobile phone) that was small like a tablet or mobile phone but as powerful as I wanted/needed for what I do and then take it with me and use wherever I want at convenient docking stations in public (school, library, airport, bank, coffee shop, grocery store (?)) or even in private (e.g. people's houses).

steeladept · « **Reply #34 on:** June 03, 2011, 06:50 AM »

I would want it as a phone instead of a USB due to the convergence. I want to be able to communicate, play, work, whatever, with just that one device. I want all my apps and data stored independent of the device, like your USB stick idea would allow, but I would also want it to be an always available communication device which it would not allow. Since the communication circuitry is already there, there is no reason to have someone else provide the connection, just use the device. As for the input and output devices (mouse, video, keyboard, etc.) I would have those provided independently not unlike a docking station is used for laptops today. You use it to make the input and display/output easier. Not necessary, just easier.

Renegade · « **Reply #35 on:** June 03, 2011, 07:19 AM »

A small storage device that has the OS and everything on it and plugs into generic hardware / terminals? It could be the size of a credit card with today's technology. But it doesn't excite me much.

Tablets have a nice form factor. They're portable. You can hold them in 1 hand. They're light. They're usable, unlike the candy bar form factor. A slide-out/detachable Bluetooth keyboard with a built in track pad would make it a real laptop replacement (basically).

Wireless electricity would make it just about perfect. (It's still being researched.)

I can't get very excited about anything in the candy bar form factor. It's unusable. I can't even play games on my phone because they're designed for the fingers of 10-year old girls. Typing is even worse. For very simple things, sure -- they work ok. But to do work? Nope. Tablets could fill that space.

steeladept · « **Reply #36 on:** June 03, 2011, 07:40 AM »

Quote from: Renegade on June 03, 2011, 07:19 AM

A small storage device that has the OS and everything on it and plugs into generic hardware / terminals? It could be the size of a credit card with today's technology. But it doesn't excite me much.

I can understand that, sort of, but if that generic hardware was a tablet sized device (and I don't see why it couldn't be) then we would be where I am talking about. The software is stored on removable storage and links up with any standard form factor hardware (whatever those standards evolve into). Probably won't happen though. Too much money to be made by differentiation. Standardization is a good thing, as long as the standard is the one that company is proposing e.g. proprietary. Standard devices? Pah, any commodity item can fit that - ours does THIS. Whatever....

Stoic Joker · « **Reply #37 on:** June 03, 2011, 11:56 AM »

So in short, this really is the beginning of the end for computing as we know it. As more and more devices are being merged and fed the cloud. Fashion will win over function (as it always does) because work isn't fun. All we need now is for someone to finish working out how to access the human brain directly and then the only HID needed will be a single receptacle where the device connects to you. Then Apple can jack that technology and come completely out of the closet, by releasing the iButt (guess where that goes).

40hz · « **Reply #38 on:** June 03, 2011, 02:09 PM »

Quote from: Deozaan on June 03, 2011, 06:33 AM

Quote from: 40hz on June 03, 2011, 06:17 AM
Quote from: Deozaan on June 03, 2011, 05:50 AM
If computers were the size of mobile phones, or rather, if mobile phones were as powerful as desktop PCs, with a docking station port, it would be awesome! Imagine all the places that would most likely provide keyboard, video (monitor), mouse, and internet. You could have your PC anywhere you wanted, no need for cloud.

Why stop with someone else providing just the monitor, keyboard, mouse and internet link?

Have them throw in a standardized computing platform (i.e. PC) and all you'd need is a USB flash drive. Just boot from that.

Your choice of OS, plus all your apps and data, on one convenient little hunk of plastic you could wear around your neck or drop in your pocket...

I wouldn't want that,

Me neither. But I don't doubt we'll eventually get something much like it - whether we want it or not.

40hz · « **Reply #39 on:** June 03, 2011, 02:36 PM »

Quote from: Stoic Joker on June 03, 2011, 11:56 AM

So in short, this really is the beginning of the end for computing as we know it.

I many respects, yes.

There seems to be an industry trend where the end-user is increasingly being seen (not without good reason) as a data "consumer" rather than a data creator.

The proposed changes in OS and interface design simply reflect that change in industry perspective.

And now that there's sufficient momentum and numbers in the very industry open standards helped create, there's a concerted effort to move away from those same standards, now that many in the industry feel "open" has served it's purpose. The same thing happened with radio and television technologies.

Even so-called open platforms like Android don't reach the consumer in anything other than locked-down forms as provided by the telcos.

What we're witnessing is the classic "wagon circling" that breaks out once any market reaches a certain level of maturity, and new customers become increasingly hard to come by. Hence the push for proprietary devices and operating systems which are locked into one vendor's app store. Apple did it. And now everybody else seems intent to follow that same business model.

And for those who want to jailbreak their devices, there's still an ongoing effort by many manufacturers to find a way to legally prevent them from doing so. Small surprise when you consider that those who most often argue for legislation and regulation usually came out of the broadcasting, telco, and cable industries.

In an interview, Steve Jobs dissed laptops and netbooks - and held up an iPhone. "This is the future." he said.

There's a good chance he may be right since it seems to be what most people want to buy. Where that leaves us geeks and techno-wonks is anybody's guess. Thank heavens for Linux. Or at least as long as Ubuntu's vision for the Unity desktop doesn't prevail.

Stoic Joker · « **Reply #40 on:** June 03, 2011, 04:50 PM »

Quote from: 40hz on June 03, 2011, 02:36 PM

Quote from: Stoic Joker on June 03, 2011, 11:56 AM
So in short, this really is the beginning of the end for computing as we know it.

I many respects, yes.

Damnit! ...Why can't I just once be cynical and wrong, at the same time?!?

*Sigh* At least there's still hope for the server OS's (i think...).

Quote from: 40hz on June 03, 2011, 02:36 PM

Where that leaves us geeks and techno-wonks is anybody's guess.

Marginally justified in being misanthropic?

Quote from: 40hz on June 03, 2011, 02:36 PM

Thank heavens for Linux.

It's not a bad exit strategy if need be.

40hz · « **Reply #41 on:** June 03, 2011, 05:35 PM »

Quote from: Stoic Joker on June 03, 2011, 04:50 PM

*Sigh* At least there's still hope for the server OS's (i think...).

There will be until Microsoft decides to drop Windows Home Server. It really is a little gem.

Stoic Joker · « **Reply #42 on:** June 03, 2011, 06:12 PM »

Quote from: 40hz on June 03, 2011, 05:35 PM

Quote from: Stoic Joker on June 03, 2011, 04:50 PM
*Sigh* At least there's still hope for the server OS's (i think...).

There will be until Microsoft decides to drop Windows Home Server. It really is a little gem.

WHS? ...What...Everybody doesn't have a domain controller on their home network?!? My god! ...How do they keep track of the kids?!? (comment loosely relates to other thread - hehe

)

zridling · « **Reply #43 on:** June 05, 2011, 07:41 AM »

The Win8 UI video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p92QfWOw88I

Quote from: 40hz on June 03, 2011, 02:36 PM

There seems to be an industry trend where the end-user is increasingly being seen (not without good reason) as a data "consumer" rather than a data creator.

Thus the tablet device, which is merely consumptive, not creative -- "Stop typing your opinions and buy more shit, you donkeys!" Win8 seems to devalue the keyboard as well, despite otherwise being a move in the right direction. (Imagine if Microsoft had done Win8 when Vista was released!) Also, there's the whole facebookification of the web, which Doc Searls posted about and I'll link to soon.

There may be a way out of the current partitioning of the web via the Freedom Box:
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/16/nyregion/16about.html
http://www.freedomboxfoundation.org/

...that is, if you ever get tired of your every move being tracked by megacorp, inc.

Carol Haynes · « **Reply #44 on:** June 05, 2011, 01:47 PM »

OK when is Apple going to sue Microsoft on look and feel?

Renegade · « **Reply #45 on:** June 05, 2011, 01:53 PM »

Quote from: Carol Haynes on June 05, 2011, 01:47 PM

OK when is Apple going to sue Microsoft on look and feel?

Right after they patent breathing...

40hz · « **Reply #46 on:** June 05, 2011, 02:19 PM »

Quote from: Carol Haynes on June 05, 2011, 01:47 PM

OK when is Apple going to sue Microsoft on look and feel?

Don't you mean when is Apple going to sue Microsoft on look and feel again?

They did it back in 1988 when Windows first started using desktop icons and resizeable windows.

"Look and feel" was a legal argument Apple used to try to find a way around the (former) rule you couldn't patent or copyright an idea.

Quote

Apple Computer, Inc. v. Microsoft Corporation, 35 F.3d 1435 (9th Cir. 1994) was a copyright infringement lawsuit in which Apple Computer, Inc. (now Apple Inc.) sought to prevent Microsoft Corporation and Hewlett-Packard from using visual graphical user interface (GUI) elements that were similar to those in Apple's Lisa and Macintosh operating systems. The court ruled that, "Apple cannot get patent- protection for the idea of a graphical user interface, or the idea of a desktop metaphor [under copyright law]..."[1] In the midst of the Apple v. Microsoft lawsuit, Xerox also sued Apple alleging that Mac's GUI was heavily based on Xerox's.[2] The district court dismissed Xerox's claims without addressing whether Apple's GUI infringed Xerox's.[3] Apple lost all claims in the Microsoft suit except for the ruling that the trash can icon and folder icons from Hewlett-Packard's NewWave windows application were infringing. The lawsuit was filed in 1988 and lasted four years; the decision was affirmed on appeal in 1994,[1] and Apple's appeal to the U.S. Supreme Court was denied.

***
Apple had agreed to license certain parts of its GUI to Microsoft for use in Windows 1.0, but when Microsoft made changes in Windows 2.0 adding overlapping windows and other features found in the Macintosh GUI, Apple filed suit. Apple added additional claims to the suit when Microsoft released Windows 3.0.

Apple claimed the "look and feel" of the Macintosh operating system, taken as a whole, was protected by copyright, and that each individual element of the interface (such as the existence of windows on the screen, the rectangular appearance of windows, windows could be resized, overlap, and have title bars) was not as important as all these elements taken together. After oral arguments, the court insisted on an analysis of specific GUI elements that Apple claimed were infringements. Apple listed 189 GUI elements; the court decided that 179 of these elements had been licensed to Microsoft in the Windows 1.0 agreement and most of the remaining 10 elements were not copyrightable—either they were unoriginal to Apple, or they were the only possible way of expressing a particular idea.

I find it amusing that the courts ruled the one of the few Windows icons that did infringe on anything was the trash can. (Now you know why Windows uses a more 'modern' Recycle Bin icon instead.)

Who says the law is blind? Or that judiciary doesn't have a sense of humor.

[attach]

Carol Haynes · « **Reply #47 on:** June 05, 2011, 02:42 PM »

Just strikes me that the kiddie sliding block approach to the UI is pretty much identical to the way Apple hand held devices work. It also isn't miles away from the touchscreen software produced by HP for their machines.

I can see a rather large argument happening which will mean Windows 8 won't get released until the interface design is already passé !

zridling · « **Reply #48 on:** June 06, 2011, 04:08 AM »

I think the women have it on this one:

app103:
I am really sick of the mindset that everything needs to be "purdy at all costs", forsaking functionality and customizability if necessary in order to achieve this "purdy-ness". (You can probably thank Apple for this).... My desktop is usually covered by open windows so I rarely ever see it.... A lot of time, thought, and work went into setting up my desktop to be as productive as possible. 12 years to be exact. I resent any company that takes a few months to undo all that I have done over the course of many years, in order to appeal to people that should be using a TV rather than a computer.
-- I hated the introduction of themes in XP because besides looking ugly and childish, it took up more space on the taskbar, causing less shortcuts to fit per row.
-- I hated the removal of the ability to have additional shortcut bars on other edges of the desktop, introduced in Win7. (saw this on my dad's PC and decided not to upgrade till I found a solution to the problem)

I like the simplicity and complete customizability of the classic Win9x theme.
-- If it means not upgrading in order to keep my desktop functional to me, then so be it.
-- If it means choosing another OS to accomplish what I want, then so be it.
-- If Microsoft continues to attempt to cater to Mac users and idiots that can't use a computer, they risk alienating people like me that have taken the time to get to know their OS and what it is capable of, and customized their desktop in ways the average person has not.

We are not all going to jump to using tablets, forsaking our desktop computers. We are not all going to move all our data to the cloud. We are not all going to live in our browsers. We are not all going to stop being productive producers and switch to being happy little idiot consumers that just need a few icons we can select with our chubby fingers to view what someone else has created (most likely created on a different OS designed for productivity).
http://www.donationcoder.com/forum/index.php?topic=25878.msg251038#msg251038

Carol Haynes:
...the problem [with touchscreens] is after the novelty wears off (around the 5 minute mark) they all go back to keyboard and mouse because it is quick, more accurate and less tiring to use. Who wants to use massive arm gestures when a quick flick of the wrist does the job rather better.... All this is ideal in a palm device (except when you need to type when it is utterly crap) but on a large screen it looks really childish and nerdy!
http://www.donationcoder.com/forum/index.php?topic=25878.msg251030#msg251030
_______________________________
Same here!
-- I can only afford one computer at a time, much less a tablet right now. In fact, I already know that for the next two years I'm going to be living very thin and lean, meaning I won't be getting a tablet device unless they... scratch that; I won't be getting one.
-- I continue to see the computer as a tool, not a toy.
-- When I can accurately type 80-90 words per minute, why in the world would I want to revert to an onscreen/block keyboard? (I'm still using old Microsoft ergonomic keyboards!)
-- As Carol notes, that UI might be good for palm device, but my chubby fingers aren't made for smartphones, much less tablets! (Does this make me handicapped?)
-- One thing I love about KDE is its near infinite customizability on Linux.
-- The video I linked to above shows off Win8's touchscreen features, but it did not show any improvements for the keyboard and mouse.

app103 · « **Reply #49 on:** June 06, 2011, 04:19 AM »

Quote from: zridling on June 06, 2011, 04:08 AM

-- When I can accurately type 80-90 words per minute, why in the world would I want to revert to an onscreen/block keyboard? (I'm still using old Microsoft ergonomic keyboards!)
-- As Carol notes, that UI might be good for palm device, but my chubby fingers aren't made for smartphones, much less tablets! (Does this make me handicapped?)

I have an older handheld device with a touch screen, and I hate the onscreen keyboard. I am really glad I never have to use it. I am really glad someone had the sense to make a real keyboard for it, one that folds up to about the same size as the device.