Author Topic: Are You Ready to Switch to GNU/Linux? (Read 76,788 times)

Tuxman · « **Reply #50 on:** January 01, 2011, 04:30 AM »

http://blog.milkingthegnu.org/2008/04/gpl-for-dummies.html

mahesh2k · « **Reply #51 on:** January 01, 2011, 05:11 AM »

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1. You’re Tired of Paying for Software

No. Tired of being a freebie-sucker and i want to support myself and other develoeprs.

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2. You’re Tired of Upgrading Hardware

So that keeps me from playing upcoming games ? no thanks. i'll update hardware frequently and play games instead of pretending to live frugal life just for the sake of lazyness.

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3. You’re Tired of Malware

There are no malware for chrome and firefox irrespective of platform ?

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4. You’ve Seen One Too Many Patch Tuesdays

There are no patches in linux software ? i wonder why gcc and other supported libs are updated frequently on every software package when synaptic finds out.

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5. You Don’t Have the Time

linux increases amount of time i spent on it to sort things out. Don't tell me linux saves time.
single drive multiple(countless) folders (linux)thinking saves time ? or multiple drives and multiple folders (windows way)save time and are easy to sort out ?

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6. You Like Speed

for what ? games? let's face it. It's not profitable to write games for linux and so the speed is useless when it comes to linux gaming.

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7. You Like Sharing

share what ? music ? illegal stuff ? :coughs:

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8. You Don’t Actually Love Internet Explorer

Never used it ever since 2007. Firefox and opera is beating that child of MS for long time already.

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9. You Want to Be in Control

I'm in control.

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10. You’re One of a Kind

Writing scripts on command line to do simple tasks when 2 clicks can do job ? No, i'm not unique then.

f0dder · « **Reply #52 on:** January 01, 2011, 12:39 PM »

Quote from: Renegade on January 01, 2011, 03:22 AM

As Linux is GPL, how does any distribution NOT become GPL? That violates the license. And if it's GPL, then it's GNU.

Unless I'm really mistaken, licensing something under the GPL does not make it GNU.

There's a lot of software in every linux distribution not written by the GNU project people.

And there's a fair amount of opensource projects that aren't under the GPL license, and are included in most/lots of distributions.

Insisting on calling a distribution GNU/Linux imho equals downplaying the importance on non-gnu/non-gpl projects, and I find that rather distasteful and self-important of the GNU guys.

Renegade · « **Reply #53 on:** January 01, 2011, 01:14 PM »

Quote from: f0dder on January 01, 2011, 12:39 PM

Quote from: Renegade on January 01, 2011, 03:22 AM
As Linux is GPL, how does any distribution NOT become GPL? That violates the license. And if it's GPL, then it's GNU.
Unless I'm really mistaken, licensing something under the GPL does not make it GNU.

There's a lot of software in every linux distribution not written by the GNU project people.

And there's a fair amount of opensource projects that aren't under the GPL license, and are included in most/lots of distributions.

Insisting on calling a distribution GNU/Linux imho equals downplaying the importance on non-gnu/non-gpl projects, and I find that rather distasteful and self-important of the GNU guys.

I wasn't aware of some loopholes in/interpretations of the GPL that allowed use with non-GPL code. I'd then made another assumption and made an ass out of u and me.

It happens.

Personally, I also find the OSI somewhat arrogant. I have source licenses for software, but they're not OSI approved. $:-\$

Edvard · « **Reply #54 on:** January 01, 2011, 01:37 PM »

I hate these lists precisely because of the controversy they engender, the snarky remarks, the outlandish claims, the smug retorts, the arguments that go on and on and on and on...

Use Windows if it works for you.
Use Linux if it works for you.
Use both if it suits you.

Both have their merits and their drawbacks; deal with it, live with your choice, leave well enough alone, and don't feed the trolls.

That said, I apologize in advance, but I just can't let this go (and I'm not calling mahesh2k a troll, either

)...

Quote from: mahesh2k on January 01, 2011, 05:11 AM

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1. You’re Tired of Paying for Software
No. Tired of being a freebie-sucker and i want to support myself and other develoeprs.

I'm a "freebie-sucker" because my income doesn't allow me to purchase software for which I find acceptable freeware alternatives?
Jeez, first you call me a cheapskate, and now this...

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2. You’re Tired of Upgrading Hardware
So that keeps me from playing upcoming games ? no thanks. i'll update hardware frequently and play games instead of pretending to live frugal life just for the sake of lazyness.

I'm lazy because I can't afford the latest whiz-bang constantly slung at me by game magazine advertisements?
This has NOTHING to do with my personal motivation level and EVERYTHING to do with the fact that I can run a modern operating system on hardware that doesn't require a new line of credit every 6 months.
I can even play games.

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3. You’re Tired of Malware
There are no malware for chrome and firefox irrespective of platform ?

Yeah, this dead horse has been beaten to a bloody pulp already.
Malware is not inherently Windows fault, it's the fault of the malware purveyors being aware of their market and how to exploit it.
Linux users are not completely immune to (for example) Flash and Java exploits that harvest data, but there are 90-99% more Windows machines with much more delicious data stored in the same place on every machine, which makes them an irresistable target.
Sorry.

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4. You’ve Seen One Too Many Patch Tuesdays
There are no patches in linux software ? i wonder why gcc and other supported libs are updated frequently on every software package when synaptic finds out.

Hehe... I have to agree I don't see the point here.
Updates happen quite frequently in any repository-based distribution, and they happen any day of the week.
*shrug*

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5. You Don’t Have the Time
linux increases amount of time i spent on it to sort things out. Don't tell me linux saves time.
single drive multiple(countless) folders (linux)thinking saves time ? or multiple drives and multiple folders (windows way)save time and are easy to sort out ?

What does the structure of a filesystem and disk mount points have to do with the amount of your available free time?
If you're talking about setting up system parameters and application preferences that you're unfamiliar with, fine, yes, that's going to take some time.
Windows requires babysitting as well, most people are just much more familiar with the environment and the process, which translates to "faster".
OK, sure, I'll admit that at for a long while the filesystem baffled me and I spent a lot of time in the early years trying to "sort things out" before I finally learned why it is the way it is.
BUT... once I figured that out, I discovered that ~90% of the time there is no real reason to muck about with the root filesystem, so I made myself cozy in /home/edvard and occasionally /opt and I'm doing much better.
Incidentally, the same goes for Windows; it took me just as many years to figure out that the less time I spent in C:\windows\system32 and more in C:\Documents and Settings\edvard the happier I was.
BTW, in Linux you can set up multiple drives in more ways than I even know how, and I've actually found it WAY more flexible than Windows.
Just sayin'...

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6. You Like Speed
for what ? games? let's face it. It's not profitable to write games for linux and so the speed is useless when it comes to linux gaming.

Dude, you've thrown this gauntlet down before and I've thrown it right back at you but you obviously didn't catch it.
There are MANY legitimate reasons why NOT to write games for Linux, but it HAS NOW BEEN PROVEN that profit (or lack thereof) is NOT one of them.
http://www.hemispheregames.com/2010/06/23/linux-the-numbers/
http://jeffhoogland.blogspot.com/2010/05/why-there-is-market-for-linux-games.html
Besides, WTF does this point have to do with game profitability?
This one can be demonstrated by the fact that right now I'm typing this post in Xubuntu on a single-core 64-bit 4GB RAM machine that consistently outperforms the quad-core 6GB RAM machine running Windows XP that I am forced to wrestle with at work.
Betcha the games are faster, too.

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7. You Like Sharing
share what ? music ? illegal stuff ? :coughs:

What.
Ever.
$:-\$
Windows users were sharing MP3s and cracked software before Linux even had a decent desktop.
Your insinuation is illogical at best and malicious at worst.
What is referred to is the fact that when I'm done installing the latest Linux, I can hand the CD to my friend and he can also install it without worrying about licenses, validations, activations and so forth, which I could NEVER do (legally) with Windows.
That's just the nature of the game, no more, no less.

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8. You Don’t Actually Love Internet Explorer
Never used it ever since 2007. Firefox and opera is beating that child of MS for long time already.

Agreed.
And Opera even has a Linux version

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9. You Want to Be in Control
I'm in control.

I'm sure you are, especially if you're a half-decent system administrator, which I'm assuming is true.
Personally, I've never felt more in control of a computer than the day I fully grasped the implications of running Linux instead of Windows.
It's not just GUI vs. command line, it's not about dealing with registry corruption, fiddly permissions, malware/viruses/etc, it's not a question of hating Microsoft or Apple or Adobe or any of that nonsense.
It's something quite nebulous and intangible that only comes with the experience of being a long-time Linux user, the moment you know you'll never turn back, that moment...
I'm sorry, I can't go on...
Inspirational music just started playing in my head and it must now stop.

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10. You’re One of a Kind
Writing scripts on command line to do simple tasks when 2 clicks can do job ? No, i'm not unique then.

Hehe... Yeah, this one is kind of subjective.
Just because one runs Linux doesn't make one any more or less unique.
Hell, a few choice DC apps and a new desktop wallpaper and my Windows machine at work can be pretty darn unique. ;p
BTW - depending on the task at hand, a few "scripts on command line" can take your 2 clicks to the mat any time.
Seriously, keep count of how many mouse clicks and menu options you have to go through to do an average administration task.
I bet it's more than you realize, but since you're more familiar with the process, you experience it as "easier".
Since getting familiar with common tasks in Linux that require command line operations, I've found that to be much easier and more powerful.
It's all in the familiarity...

Mahesh, I fully support you in your efforts to develop software intended to provide superior functionality for an equitable price that will hopefully provide for as much of your livelihood as possible.
I understand that most often such an endeavor requires developing for and with Windows, and freeware/open source simply cannot promise to put food on the table; nobody can argue that.
However, I cannot stand by the perception that developing for Linux with commercial intent is inherently a losing proposition because "Linux users will not pay for software".
It is a flat myth that has been proven false many times over, and the sooner this misconception is put to death, the better off both worlds will be.

In fact, why not do as others have and just try developing a commercial software project that is cross-platform; something that fills a need for Linux users as well as Windows and Mac.
Something that either has no Linux software equivalent or is sufficiently advanced to render existing software patently inferior by comparison.
See if you don't profit more than you foresaw, even if it is only a small percentage compared to Windows sales (Linux is, after all, only 1-5% of desktop market share, right?).

Prove me wrong.
I DARE you...

40hz · « **Reply #55 on:** January 01, 2011, 02:33 PM »

Quote from: f0dder on January 01, 2011, 12:39 PM

Quote from: Renegade on January 01, 2011, 03:22 AM
As Linux is GPL, how does any distribution NOT become GPL? That violates the license. And if it's GPL, then it's GNU.
Unless I'm really mistaken, licensing something under the GPL does not make it GNU.

There's a lot of software in every linux distribution not written by the GNU project people.

Yes.

Maybe now there is.

But back when the two projects first started to coexist, almost everything (like 90%) that makes Linux generally usable was written by the GNU people. Most of the critical subsystems, utilities, and services still are GNU code projects. So please don't confuse a Linux distro with Linux itself. That's a layman's mistake which only serves to generate an endless supply of flamebait.

And while we're at it, let's not lump all code together, nor give the size of a codebase more significance than it deserves. Far better to pay attention to the functionalities the code provides.

A kernal is tiny but absolutely essential. And in the case of Linux, it was the effort of a handful of people.

A game may have tens of millions of lines of code, require years of work, and an army of programmers.

But I don't think anybody could argue that a sprawling game is more 'important' or 'significant' than that little kernal that sits beneath it. To do so would be like comparing apples with oranges.

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And there's a fair amount of opensource projects that aren't under the GPL license, and are included in most/lots of distributions.

Insisting on calling a distribution GNU/Linux imho equals downplaying the importance on non-gnu/non-gpl projects, and I find that rather distasteful and self-important of the GNU guys.

Again, now there is.

<*sigh*> You really do need to look at the history to grok what went down with the whole GNU/Linux and LiGNUx name thing. Because when taken out of its historical context, it will seem like nothing more than egotism and petty squabbling.

Both sides had 'arguments' and issues which most of the people who were involved have long gotten over.

And both sides were equally wrong - and equally right, IMHO.

40hz · « **Reply #56 on:** January 01, 2011, 02:43 PM »

Quote from: Edvard on January 01, 2011, 01:37 PM

I hate these lists precisely because of the controversy they engender, the snarky remarks, the outlandish claims, the smug retorts, the arguments that go on and on and on and on...

+1

For 2011, and in the spirit of Mark Twain (who's autobiography I am now reading) I've decided my sole response to lists like that will be:

I'm happy fer ya! How 'bout all y'all go use whatever you damn well please - and not tell me about it.

Renegade · « **Reply #57 on:** January 01, 2011, 06:16 PM »

Quote from: Edvard on January 01, 2011, 01:37 PM

I hate these lists precisely because of the controversy they engender, the snarky remarks, the outlandish claims, the smug retorts, the arguments that go on and on and on and on...

If the lists had something intelligent to say, it would be different. However, they're invariably written by tech authors with no good ideas.

Quote from: Edvard on January 01, 2011, 01:37 PM

Use Windows if it works for you.
Use Linux if it works for you.
Use both if it suits you.

Interesting how you never mention OS X.

Quote from: Edvard on January 01, 2011, 01:37 PM

Yeah, this dead horse has been beaten to a bloody pulp already.
Malware is not inherently Windows fault, it's the fault of the malware purveyors being aware of their market and how to exploit it.
Linux users are not completely immune to (for example) Flash and Java exploits that harvest data, but there are 90-99% more Windows machines with much more delicious data stored in the same place on every machine, which makes them an irresistable target.
Sorry.

Good point, and one that is lost on many in the *nix community, especially their bastard, inbred cousins in the OS X community.

(Sorry, couldn't resist that one -- heard the "Macs can't get viruses" BS once too often.)

Quote from: Edvard on January 01, 2011, 01:37 PM

BUT... once I figured that out, I discovered that ~90% of the time there is no real reason to muck about with the root filesystem, so I made myself cozy in /home/edvard and occasionally /opt and I'm doing much better.
Incidentally, the same goes for Windows; it took me just as many years to figure out that the less time I spent in C:\windows\system32 and more in C:\Documents and Settings\edvard the happier I was.

Good point.

Quote from: Edvard on January 01, 2011, 01:37 PM

BTW, in Linux you can set up multiple drives in more ways than I even know how, and I've actually found it WAY more flexible than Windows.
Just sayin'...

How so? I'm curious.

Quote from: Edvard on January 01, 2011, 01:37 PM

Dude, you've thrown this gauntlet down before and I've thrown it right back at you but you obviously didn't catch it.
There are MANY legitimate reasons why NOT to write games for Linux, but it HAS NOW BEEN PROVEN that profit (or lack thereof) is NOT one of them.
http://www.hemispheregames.com/2010/06/23/linux-the-numbers/
http://jeffhoogland.blogspot.com/2010/05/why-there-is-market-for-linux-games.html

Sorry, but this is a bad argument... At the moment.

There simply aren't that many games out there for Linux (which may mean it's a good time to get into the market), so those that are in the market take up greater profits. Limited surveys... Bad data.

Even when you look at the game revenue, Windows sales are more than double Linux. What would any sane developer do? Develop for Windows of course!

I just don't see the revenue thing as an attraction for developers... Yet.

e.g. I'd rather get $1 from 1,000,000 people than $100 from 100 people. (Exaggeration intentional.)

It is getting better now, but I am not sure that it's there. Well, let me qualify that.

I think that it's there for large developers that can sink the money in and wait. It's not there for 1-man-bands. Windows is.

Quote from: Edvard on January 01, 2011, 01:37 PM

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9. You Want to Be in Control
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I'm in control.
I'm sure you are, especially if you're a half-decent system administrator, which I'm assuming is true.
Personally, I've never felt more in control of a computer than the day I fully grasped the implications of running Linux instead of Windows.
It's not just GUI vs. command line, it's not about dealing with registry corruption, fiddly permissions, malware/viruses/etc, it's not a question of hating Microsoft or Apple or Adobe or any of that nonsense.
It's something quite nebulous and intangible that only comes with the experience of being a long-time Linux user, the moment you know you'll never turn back, that moment...
I'm sorry, I can't go on...
Inspirational music just started playing in my head and it must now stop.

Freedom perhaps?

Quote from: Edvard on January 01, 2011, 01:37 PM

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10. You’re One of a Kind
Hehe... Yeah, this one is kind of subjective.

Very~!

Quote from: Edvard on January 01, 2011, 01:37 PM

Just because one runs Linux doesn't make one any more or less unique.

But if you "think different" and have an iMac or iPhone just like everyone else, then you ARE unique~!

"I'm not~!"

Quote from: Edvard on January 01, 2011, 01:37 PM

Hell, a few choice DC apps and a new desktop wallpaper and my Windows machine at work can be pretty darn unique. ;p

Don't forget to find your duplicate photos with... Errr... Ummm... Blatant self-promotion has been interrupted to bring you these messages:

Quote from: Edvard on January 01, 2011, 01:37 PM

BTW - depending on the task at hand, a few "scripts on command line" can take your 2 clicks to the mat any time.
Seriously, keep count of how many mouse clicks and menu options you have to go through to do an average administration task.
I bet it's more than you realize, but since you're more familiar with the process, you experience it as "easier".
Since getting familiar with common tasks in Linux that require command line operations, I've found that to be much easier and more powerful.
It's all in the familiarity...

Agreed. Still...

I drop to the command line all the time... BUT... That requires knowledge.

Knowledge comes at a price. Time and effort. How many people want to spend those?

THIS is a core problem with so much of the Linux community.

People do not care about anything except making their life easier. They'd rather spend 2 minutes doing something rather than solve the problem with a bit of knowledge and typing a bit. People are LAZY beyond all human comprehension.

The ease scale goes like this:

1) Apple
2) Microsoft
3) null
4) null
5) Linux

Apple is at the top because they only let you do so many things.

Microsoft lets you do anything if someone solves the problem for you.

Linux lets you do anything if you want to solve the problem yourself.

Well, that's an exaggeration, but it's close. It's a perceived thing. Truth is, a lot of what you get on Linux is easier than what you get on Apple.

Core issue: People are lazy and don't care to learn squat.

Quote from: Edvard on January 01, 2011, 01:37 PM

Mahesh, I fully support you in your efforts to develop software intended to provide superior functionality for an equitable price that will hopefully provide for as much of your livelihood as possible.
I understand that most often such an endeavor requires developing for and with Windows, and freeware/open source simply cannot promise to put food on the table; nobody can argue that.
However, I cannot stand by the perception that developing for Linux with commercial intent is inherently a losing proposition because "Linux users will not pay for software".
It is a flat myth that has been proven false many times over, and the sooner this misconception is put to death, the better off both worlds will be.

The problem is that Linux software development is still too expensive for most software for most small developers.

Your average small developer just can't afford it.

It is profitable for larger developers and development houses. They can afford it now. That's a good thing.

I mean to exclude server markets though as we're really talking about the desktop and not servers.

Quote from: Edvard on January 01, 2011, 01:37 PM

In fact, why not do as others have and just try developing a commercial software project that is cross-platform; something that fills a need for Linux users as well as Windows and Mac.
Something that either has no Linux software equivalent or is sufficiently advanced to render existing software patently inferior by comparison.
See if you don't profit more than you foresaw, even if it is only a small percentage compared to Windows sales (Linux is, after all, only 1-5% of desktop market share, right?).

Quote from: Edvard on January 01, 2011, 01:37 PM

Prove me wrong.
I DARE you...

I wish I could. I can't. I'm too small to develop for the Linux market. I'd starve to death. And my wife would be really pissed too. Then force me into some kind of slavery. Then I'd be really sorry that I'd ever tried. And I would cry. And look like a little girl. Which would be very embarassing. So I'd probably pee my pants making the situation worse. And cry more. The probably shit my pants to boot. Not good. I'm scared now.

Tuxman · « **Reply #58 on:** January 01, 2011, 06:19 PM »

C++ is not "slow". Compare the startup time of a C++ and a Java application and shut up.

Renegade · « **Reply #59 on:** January 01, 2011, 06:21 PM »

Quote from: Tuxman on January 01, 2011, 06:19 PM

C++ is not "slow". Compare the startup time of a C++ and a Java application and shut up.

I meant development time.

Tuxman · « **Reply #60 on:** January 01, 2011, 06:29 PM »

Development in Java takes more time than in C++ because you'll have to work around all its misconceptions.

Renegade · « **Reply #61 on:** January 01, 2011, 06:36 PM »

Quote from: Tuxman on January 01, 2011, 06:29 PM

Development in Java takes more time than in C++ because you'll have to work around all its misconceptions.

Go back and read.

Tuxman · « **Reply #62 on:** January 01, 2011, 06:44 PM »

I have.

Renegade · « **Reply #63 on:** January 01, 2011, 06:50 PM »

Quote from: Tuxman on January 01, 2011, 06:44 PM

I have.

Sigh...

Read again. I was comparing languages in the context of a developer's perspective with several different considerations.

"Slow" for C++ referred to development speed.

"Interpreted" for Python should be obvious.

C is for hardcores. Development speed is very slow. For general software development it has no place. For specific purposes, it is essential.

My Objective-C comment is an inside joke.

etc.

Would you like to tell me to shut up again?

Tuxman · « **Reply #64 on:** January 01, 2011, 06:54 PM »

Sure, at a later point.

40hz · « **Reply #65 on:** January 01, 2011, 07:10 PM »

@TMan & Ren - You guys are starting to generate a bit more heat than light right now. Could we maybe go back to where it was still friendly and interesting?

Tuxman · « **Reply #66 on:** January 01, 2011, 07:19 PM »

Well, it's cold outside!

f0dder · « **Reply #67 on:** January 01, 2011, 08:13 PM »

Quote from: Tuxman on January 01, 2011, 06:19 PM

C++ is not "slow". Compare the startup time of a C++ and a Java application and shut up.

Startup time is not necessarily the best indication of execution speed anyway - there's scenarios where both Java and .NET will likely be a better fit than normal-style C++ code.

Edvard · « **Reply #68 on:** January 02, 2011, 01:13 AM »

RE: Linux games.

I am going to stand on this point until a hole wears in my foot, so please bear with me.

1- I am not and never have suggesting somebody develop solely for Linux with commercial ventures in mind.
All the cases I've quoted and claims I've made are coming from a cross-platform mentality.
So, OF COURSE you're going to get your bread and butter from Windows customers, sheer numbers make that argument for you, it would be more than stupid to think otherwise.
My point is that if you can get bread and butter with a little jam on the side for minimal extra investment, why would you NOT do it?
I know, I know, time is money, and there's this great joke about Linux being "free" if your time is worth nothing...
Yes, it'll take time to get familiar with another operating system, but many people have already done that developing cross-platform for Mac, and once you learn a programming language, the battle is half won.
I know it doesn't universally apply to every application, but in many cases it has been proven to work, and the more this happens, the quicker the myth dies and everyone benefits.

2- Small shops vs. big devs.
Every case I've linked to are to game production houses that are arguably not all that big.
Can anyone argue that 2DBoy is bigger than Adobe, or Frictional Games better staffed than Intuit?
No! Yet they are the ones ACTUALLY MAKING MONEY from cross-platform development.
This is not an argument of $1 from 1,000,000 people vs. $100 from 100 people, this is being able to charge $1.50 if you invite 10,000 more people to the party (1% of 1,000,000 is 10,000... just sayin').
You say the data is bad because there aren't that many Linux games, but you're forgetting one point; they're not selling to Linux users per se, they're selling to GAMERS, and gaming is a fairly saturated market yet it consistently sees more commerce than even Hollywood.
The fact that people purchasing games to run on Linux even makes a BLIP in the radar is beyond amazing.

BOTTOM LINE -
If somebody doesn't WANT to develop cross-platform or even just not for Linux (I see a LOT more PC-Mac versions than PC-Mac-Linux), that's perfectly fine.
It would be nice to just be told the truth, rather than rapidly-disappearing myths of revenue lost on development to a non-paying miniscule market share.
What software company (yes, even small developers) HASN'T lost money on development costs before catching stride?
Pull up your pants, look Linux users in the eye and say "I don't like you people and you are not worth my time".
We will go elsewhere, and Elsewhere stands to make a tidy profit off of us, I can assure you...

Renegade · « **Reply #69 on:** January 02, 2011, 04:57 AM »

Looking at the guys at Hemisphere games, wow. They're serious heavyweights.

Anyways, I think I didn't phrase things very well there.

If you can pick up an extra 10%, like some game developers mentioned above, well, 10% is 10%. The only real consideration is whether you can get it there for less than that 10%. Which is pretty much determined by the size of the company/revenue.

e.g. For a company with 10 people and $1 million in revenue, it's a much more important decision than for a company with 10 people and $5 million in revenue. Resource allocation in the first case is much tighter.

For a lot of developers, they have 1 or 2 people, so the consideration is much more important and needs much more consideration.

If you have revenue of $100,000 from a product, an extra $10,000 may or may not be worth it. If you can get another platform version done in 2 months, then it's certainly worth it. If it takes you 6 months... Things are getting scary because you're messing with the food on your table at that point.

A sort of twisted inverse is also true -- not the size of the developer/revenue, but the size of the product. Very large products (code base that is) are more difficult. e.g. Could Adobe port it's Creative Suite to Linux? The complexity there is pretty much a show stopper.

I came off too quick saying, "...this is a bad argument... At the moment." The qualifications for that don't come until later.

Most developers are very small shops. Once you start going through and looking behind a lot of them, it's "a guy in a garage". It's really them that I'm talking about.

Incidentally, the last game I bought is running on Linux. Well, Android, but still Linux.

I'm currently facing the cross-platform issue and will need to decide in a couple months or so. Go truly cross platform? Cross-platform then fork? Go with independent versions? Different languages?

I've been thinking about this for a very... very... very... very... very... LLLLLLLOOOOOONNNNNNNNGGGGGGGG time...

Here's an example that I've pulled out from the source code of GDT. This particular snippet was written about 4 years ago:

Code: (csharp)

        // F**k... Have to use the Windows API here -- no managed C# way to do this.
        // For Windows Mobile, replace user32.dll with coredll.dll 
        [DllImport("user32.dll")]
        [return: MarshalAs(UnmanagedType.Bool)]
        static extern bool SetForegroundWindow(IntPtr hWnd);

The first comment line is echoed everywhere I use it.

I'm hoping that I can go back and find something new to replace that though.

Still, even years ago I saw Mono and knew that it would be an answer in the future.

I like the idea of having a little conditional compilation as possible, and having the same source base. I really don't want to have a C#, C++, and Objective-C version.

I also like managed code, but will certainly use unmanaged if the case warrants it. Here's a line from the Duplicate Photo Finder I wrote for NANY 2011:

Code: (csharp)

public unsafe UInt32 Hash(Byte[] dataToHash)

And it not working

in Ubuntu:

[attachthumb=#]

The file browsers don't work there because it's coded for the Windows file system. I've not investigated how to fix that.

But the application is very simple and already there are problems. File systems. Yuck. What a lame reason for something not to work properly... Sigh...

The number of problems that need to be solved for different platforms makes things tough.

It boils down to risk management and resource allocation (human resources and developer resources, not memory

).

I'm quite certain that Linux offers significant profit. The real question for developers is if they believe that their time investment will pay off.

You're quite right though about the market being for gamers there. It's saturated, and difficult. I know guys that do games, and they're constantly plugging away to make things work. It's hard.

With technology advances, the bar comes down though. The size of the developer/revenue is a good indication of when they'll be able to jump over the bar. e.g. For a free and open source program like Duplicate Photo Finder, the motivations for me to get a Linux version done are pretty small, and not really enough to get me to jump over that bar and do it. However, it would be an excellent exercise for me to do that I could take information away and use elsewhere. Got me thinking now... Sigh... I need to stop and get the house cleaned. It's a disaster.

In any event, it looks to me like Mono is still one of the best options. This is the year that I'll be diving in and (hopefully) swimming the icy cross-platform channel. At the moment I think I'll be starting at the end of January.

And with any luck, I may be able to get you to give me some money~!

I think I'll start on the laundry first...

Edvard · « **Reply #70 on:** January 02, 2011, 05:24 AM »

Good points well made.
Despite the sparring, I'm beginning to believe you and I are rowing the same direction, albeit on different boats.
You're welcome aboard any time, skipper.

Quote

And with any luck, I may be able to get you to give me some money~!

I'm actually looking forward to it!

Hell, it might even be the first Mono app I install on purpose...

(please forgive the Mono-paranoia, others have enumerated reasons far more abundantly and eloquently than I can. Suffice it to say I will avoid it until it is unavoidable, which it soon may be...)

Renegade · « **Reply #71 on:** January 02, 2011, 05:45 AM »

Quote from: Edvard on January 02, 2011, 05:24 AM

Good points well made.
Despite the sparring, I'm beginning to believe you and I are rowing the same direction, albeit on different boats.
You're welcome aboard any time, skipper.

Agreed. It's a difficult topic. I sometimes don't articulate things properly the first time around.

Quote from: Edvard on January 02, 2011, 05:24 AM

Quote
And with any luck, I may be able to get you to give me some money~!

I'm actually looking forward to it!

ME TOO~!

(This year has really taken the wind out of my sails with 2.5 months spent overseas, wedding reception in Canada, software conference in the US, wedding and 2 receptions in Vietnam...)

Quote from: Edvard on January 02, 2011, 05:24 AM

Hell, it might even be the first Mono app I install on purpose...

(please forgive the Mono-paranoia, others have enumerated reasons far more abundantly and eloquently than I can. Suffice it to say I will avoid it until it is unavoidable, which it soon may be...)

The patent scare from MS is there, and I understand the reservations, but they have the right idea: A spec. that lets you write software in any language you want for any OS (where the spec. is implemented naturally). It's simply brilliant. The CLI really is spectacular.

I'm basically trapped in Windows with no real options. I wish I had a choice. But I have to work in the same world as my clients. Which for me is just all the more reason to root for what I see as the best option in moving to making the OS irrelevant.

Back to cleaning...

JavaJones · « **Reply #72 on:** January 02, 2011, 11:06 PM »

The games market may be saturated on platforms that actually have lots of games (i.e. Windows and consoles), but I think that's a much more dubious statement in relation to platforms with very few games. You can't generalize the entire market because of the very strong differences between platforms and their respective audiences/markets.

Mac and Linux in particular are still fairly open markets because there are not many game options on either. Mac is getting better, as is Linux, at different rates, with Mac getting some larger games faster than Linux. But still both have far fewer games than Windows and console platforms, so saturation is much less of an issue.

I also want to support and somewhat reiterate what Renegade said about dev time vs. anticipated profits. This is an unfortunate but very real factor that drives the reality of gaming on Linux and, to an extend, Mac. It's not just a matter of market size, which is certainly an important consideration. A dev also has to think about how much time, energy, and ultimately money they need to spend to support a platform. If one platform costs you an additional 10% of your dev budget to support, it better end up selling more than 10% of your game copies, otherwise it's just break-even and not worth it.

This issue is further compounded on Linux, more so even than OS X, by the poorer (though improving) standardization and support across distros, especially for 3D graphics, and also by the lesser availability of tools, engines, and knowledge for game dev on Linux vs. Windows or even OS X. One big example would be the Source Engine, available for Windows, Max OS X, and the major consoles, but not Linux. This ties in with the lack of Steam availability on Linux, rumored to be coming for some time now, but still not available (this would be a big boost for Linux game dev as it's used quite a lot now by small devs for game distribution and payment). Fortunately the Unreal Engine is available on Linux, but it does generally run games that are more expensive to create and thus higher risk for minor platforms. These are just examples, the general availability of game dev tools on Linux is just not as good as Windows.

It takes a bit of vision to take a risk on a platform with less possible customers, and fortunately that's exactly what we see happening with OS X and, to a lesser extend, Linux these days. It's still a risk. The risk is unfortunately higher with the Linux platform due to having fewer available tools, engines, and general knowledge base to draw on. This makes time and cost go up, and makes the already small Linux market become less attractive.

So the bottom line is if anyone wants Linux to become a more attractive gaming platform, they don't just need to be willing to pay for games, they have to support the development of good tools for game development. Cross platform dev is not easy or cheap, but it can be made much more so through availability of proper tools.

- Oshyan

Renegade · « **Reply #73 on:** January 03, 2011, 02:46 AM »

Quote from: JavaJones on January 02, 2011, 11:06 PM

Cross platform dev is not easy or cheap, but it can be made much more so through availability of proper tools.

Amen~!

To sound like a broken record again... To sound like a broken record again... To sound like a broken record again... To sound like a broken record again...

GO MONO~!

40hz · « **Reply #74 on:** January 03, 2011, 03:38 AM »

Quote from: Renegade on January 03, 2011, 02:46 AM

To sound like a broken record again... To sound like a broken record again... To sound like a broken record again... To sound like a broken record again...

GO MONO~!

Sorry.

Strongly disagree.

Insanely bad idea.

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