I wonder if it would be useful or even practical to combine the typical heirarchical system with the labeling system somehow?  Or have both options available in the same program?  Does anyone think that's even possible, without causing mass confusion, or a breakdown of the organizational system?

High on the todo list for Surfulater is the addition of tags/keywords in addition to the existing tree, and a range of ways to view content based on tags. It will be very interesting to see how this pans out use wise, but I have high hopes. Time and users will tell. I certainly don't expect mass confusion. Some folks will use tags, others the tree, and some both.

FYI Surfulater has the ability to store the same article in as many folders as you want, with there only ever being one physical instance of the article. This resolves the common problem of what folder should something go in.

I've written several pieces on my blog and the Surfulater forums about the limitations of tree's, especially as they get larger and larger. I've also spent quite some time looking at alternative ways of displaying tree's such as 2D & 3D graphs but IMO they don't help much. If you had 21 inch or bigger monitors it might be a different story.

i was certainly impressed with surfulater but after some use i do miss features that i would have thought basic requirements.

nudone, could you please elaborate - thanks.

i'll try to spend a bit more time with surfulator this week and then i'll post my suggestions. truth is, that when i went back into surfulator the other day i found it actually did what i was saying it didn't do. another truth is, that i've not made the effort to get to grips with all the features of surfulator so i wouldn't be surprised if i've missed out on a few other crucial features. my previous comment about basic requirements not being met is therefore a bit unfair.

i shall attempt to add a few worthwhile suggestions in a few days.

Let's assume Surfulater is the best way to capture information from the web.  Unless Surfulater is ALSO not one of the best notetaking programs, then where are we going to store and organize the information?  Are we going to use Surfulater to capture the information, but then port it somehow to another program that is a more powerful notetaking application or organizer?  I don't think so, that would be very frustrating.  Anyway, I'll have more thoughts on this later.

That is exactly the dilemma no one has been able to resolve yet.  Right now you have to use a program like NetSnippets/OnFolio/Surfulater with a program like MyBase/KeyNote/WinOrganizer.  Programs like OneNote and TexNotes have been headed in the right direction, but I must say TexNotes is so much bloat, I find it very frustrating to use.  I couldn't agree more with superboyac, you can't have two programs managing your information - clipboard use, notetaking, webclipping and file clipping all fall together, it's exactly where OneNote is heading (although i doubt microsoft will get it right, because they don't understand the idea of making things fully customizable or flexible from the users end).  Anyways, here is to the second wave of programs trying to get this right, like MyBase & Surfulater, hope they can do it.

I like where this discussion is going... because I too am in favor of the note-side of things!  Real quick note:  Keynote did have capturing capability.  It was a fledgling start but compared to many other apps of it's time it was special.

But, I have to jump back on my soapbox, sorry!  Note programs need to be able to store and relate information... this ought to be the primary function.  I should be able to build very rigid structures (a la Keynote) but I should also be able to build weak relationships and strengthen them over time.  And now, before I go off on a wild-eyed tangential dream (and repeat myself!)... I go.

Kevin

Here's what I propose:  the categories or labels can be structured in the tree/heirarchy format, but the individual notes can be placed in multiple branches of that tree. Maybe Gmail can do this also...confirmation BrotherS?

Google Mail does show the labels in a alphabetical order, and you can label every email with as many labels as you like - I don't label some at all, many get one label, and then some get two or three labels.

"PS  I wasn't aware of Keynote's capturing abilities!"

Sorry if I misunderstand your sentence here, but I'm interpreting it as you want to know more. (?)  If you already know or have since found out, please disregard this post!

If you go into the Keynote options, there is a whole panel for clipboard capture.  Basically Keynote watches the clipboard and captures the clip as it comes in.  There are some format modifying that can be done, and then the clip is sent straight to the active Tab in a new note.  My main problem is that the new node cannot be named on the fly.  Even if a dialog box popped up that you could type the name in would make it more useful in my opinion. 

Kevin

Surfulater works this way. There is only ever one physical instance of a 'note', but it can be in as many tree folders as you want.

Surfulater also lets you link related 'notes' together so you build a web of related information. This is very useful.

Ah!  I didn't realize this about Surfulater at first.  Now I see some of the sophistication in the program.  Very cool!

I don't see a tight connection between the hierarchical tree and tags (labels, keywords whatever).

Tags are separate organizational method which can be used in a variety of ways. For example you get a list of all tags and selecting one shows all notes which include that tag. Tags could also be used in conjunction with filtered tree views. In this mode the tree would only include notes that included a certain tag or tags. With a good implementation of tags some folks might not even use the tree.

Time to go get some sleep.

You know, I think I agree with you here.  As my notes grow more and more in number, I'm becoming weary and tired of the whole heirarchy system.  In fact, when I'm too lazy and can't figure out exactly where a note is supposed to go, I place it in a temporary branch called "unorganzied notes".  Then I go back and place them in the correct branch later.  Of course, I wouldn't have this problem if I could assign the note multipe tags.  So, I think you've hit the nail on the head here.  But that being said, and correct me if I'm wrong here nevf, Surfulater doesn't seem to use a strictly tagging system.  It seems that Surfulater has the ability to place the note in multiple folders, but the folders are still arranged in the typical tree structure.  Maybe I am understanding this concept differently than you.

The way I am thinking about it is like in the PowerMarks program (for bookmarking internet sites).  I'll post a screenshot of it later, but in that program, there is no tree structure at all anywhere.  Instead, for each bookmark, you assign keywords (optional), and you can have the keywords displayed all in an alphabetical list in a pane on the left.  Once you select a keyword, all the bookmarks that match it will be displayed in the main pane on the right.  You know, PowerMarks might be a really good example of how to make a powerful notetaking program!  It would be kind of like Evernote in function, only better, because it would handle large amounts of notes a little more traditionally like Surfulater or Mybase and Keynote.

I mostly agree with you... except I think that trees should still be an option.  If you're trying to write a book or write an outline you want only certain nodes in a certain order.  The final implentation should allow both.  You should be able to throw things in, but then "hard assign" them as needed (they would still be in the database pool for other groupings, but that one group would always contain it).

Kevin

True...no one can complain if both options are available.  I'd love having the flexibility, that's for sure.  I think Surfulater kind of is an example of this sort of flexibility.  You can view the notes in the typical tree with all folders and notes displayed in the tree, or with just the folders displayed, and you can even see it in chronological format.  So it offers several different ways of looking at the same data.  In that respect, Surfulater offers a solution to the problem I have with Evernote, where you can really only view the data in chronological sorting.

Just a quick note on this.  During the last few weeks I downloaded a ton of programs (including the ones discussed at the beginning of this thread).  I don't see what the interest in MyBase is?  I installed this program and promptly uninstalled it because I didn't see anything I wanted to use. 

In my view (perhaps different from yours because I am an architect/law student).  I want a nice UI and easy access to my information.  The information is what it is all about.  As far as a text only programs there should be not discussion.  There are a ton of text editors that all do the same thing.  What is important is a tool that will allow you to gather information from everywhere (the web included) organize it (usually trees) and link it. Obviously the ability to grab information from the internet is important (because there is so much information out there) but you need to also be able to use simple text or import from other sources, docs, pdfs, etc. 

With this said, I am placing my bet on Surfulater.  I down loaded this program with about 20 others and it is still installed.  My process for evaluating is as follows:
1. Go to download.com and do a general search so you get as many results as possible (then do it again so you do miss it)
2. Go through the hundreds of results, read the descriptions, look at screenshots, visit homepages, and finally download promising programs.
3. Install all the promising programs (I do it while I am searching)
4. Gather all the new shortcuts on the desktop, and open each of the programs
5. If the UI sucks - uninstall the program
6. Take a closer feature look at each of the remaining programs.  Can you import the information you want? Does it work well with other programs? Can you input data easily (i.e. is the structure of the program not so restrictive that it takes to long to input simple date), etc, etc,

I did this, and have already deleted many "promising" programs.  Surfulater is still running and here is  why:

It is a web companion yes, but I can also use it to input practically anything else with the attachment and clipboard utility.  To understand the features you'd have to try it.  A good quick view of the possibly it to look at the help section - it was created in the program and is obviously not just clippings from the web.

Here are a few features I loved:
1. I can create many different "books" (that's what I am calling them).  I have created, Projects, Personal, School, and AEC.  The books are displayed as colored tabs along the top so I can quickly switch between each, and in each book I can have as many articles and folders I want. 
2. It is the best for capturing web articles.  I can download just the part I selected, the selection and the page (which appears as a thumbnail by the imported selection), or the selection and a link to the page.  The title automatically is inserted as well as a link.
3. Here come the best features - accessibility to data - to any note I can add comments, a reference, attachments, or "see also" (which creates a bi directional link to another article. 
4. Visibility - I have never seen this feature but I love it.  Next to each of the items noted above there is a minimize button so I can hide, the article and just view my comments, links, etc.  Also if I click on the "Roofs" folder I can see all the sub articles instantly without having to select each separately.
5. The clip board tool.  I am working on a project with about 100 pages of restrictions, and I am using Surfulater to organize these.  I scanned the document into PDF format.  When I read something I need to reference, I select it and copy it, then I go to Surfulater and create a new article base on this selection, then I put in my comments, i.e. what we are going to do to comply with the requirement

Anyway the possibilities are endless.  I really never write reviews for programs, but I am just extremely impressed with Surfulater.  I haven't found a program quite like it, and if you guys really want the best editor  - information compiler- possible, I would at least try it.  I still don't understand what you liked about MyBase.  I chose "General knowledge Base 2.2" over MyBase, and even that has been replaced by Surfulater...did I miss something?  I don't remember being impressed.

OK, since I'm already thinking about it, I will begin to post some of my comments about Surfulater:

--Surfulater--

First of all, I read the blog you (nevf) wrote about Surfulater's future and everything, it was excellent.  Now, most of my critique of Surfulater is hinging on the fact that the program will eventually become a full-fledged note-editing program.  If not, that most, if not all, of my comments will be out of context and somewhat useless.  I say this because I just don't see how I can use one program to capture a whole bunch of information, but then I can't add my personal notes about related items and separate items in the same program.  Information is information and I would like it all to be in the same place.  Okay, that being said...

Let me first start off by saying that I'm not a big fan of html/xml/java being used in standalone applications as it's core.  However, it is done right in Surfulater as in A-book (which I reviewed earlier), so even though I don't prefer it, I'm okay with it when it is used in a creative and useful manner.

Part of what I don't like about Surfulater is that it is not yet ready for taking notes in an efficient manner.  Sure it can capture anything from anywhere, but what if I just want to write a little paragraph or list?  I am restricted by the handful of templates that are there (clipboard, contact, code snippet, etc...).  And the templates are too bulky for me.  I don't need all that big title, references, and large borders on the right side.  I just want a blank area to type a little bit of text.  So, that's one of the reasons why I wouldn't use the program at this point.

Anyway, I'm too tired to write anymore right now.  But that is my complaint of Surfulater so far.  It's just not a notetaking application yet, and I need that more so than it's spectacular ability to capture content.  Let me put it this way, if you need to capture a lot of content without traditional notetaking (like you would in Keynote) than Surfulater is a great program for you, as in the case of jgiebeler, who sounds like he has to collect a whole lot of information from the web and other places.  But if you're looking to organize a lot of simple text and little bits of information, you will be frustrated with Surfulater, it's just not meant for that yet. 

So to bring this discussion all the way around to basic note-taking software, I will still assert that Mybase is closer to this goal than Surfulater.  Capturing is only one part of notetaking, and it is an add-in (a luxury) at that.  By that I mean that capturing is not the main goal of notetaking, so that shouldn't be the focus of this software genre.  It could be the feature that makes one program better than the other, given that all else is equal, but it shouldn't be the primary focus.  I think Surfulater's method of organizing it's articles with the multiple folders and (future) tags, is something that should be mirrored in a notetaking program also.  That will bring this genre to the next level.

superboyac, don't let it be said that I'm not up to a challenge.

1) Close Surfulater.
2) Download Surfulater.SurfulaterPatch and unzip the enclosed Surfulater.SurfulaterPatch file into the directory Surfulater is installed in.
3) Start Surfulater.
4) Use Article|New Article|Note
5) Let me know what you think.

Note that I haven't thoroughly tested this template yet and suspect there may be a small problem.

Keep in mind this can be changed to whatever you want. Right now I've just included a single "Note" field which uses the full width of the content window and grows in height as required. Click on the pencil as usual to edit.

You will see one of the benefits of Surfulater's use of HTML and its Article Templates before your very eyes.

The layout of articles and addition of new templates is open ended. Pretty anything you can dream up as a layout for an article can be accomplished. At present you need to write the raw HTML, which is fairly easy, however down the track you'll see the ability to create and layout templates from within Surfulater. Powerful stuff indeed IMHO.

Re. jgiebeler - he has just purchased Surfulater and I mentioned he might be interested in this discussion. I had no idea of the end result, and am pleased to say the least. I've put his post on my blog with his permission. See: http://blog.surfulater.com/2006/03/01/evaluating-software-from-a-users-perspective/