Can this Bat of yours be customised, plug-in'd or otherwise extended? If so there may be a way to shoehorn in a better editor while retaining all the other fine features of the program.

You can write plugins, but very very few people have.  One of the best ones is AntiSpamSniper, which I love.  Great example of how to properly program something.  I doubt you can easily write something to replace the editor without it being klunky.  I mean, to the Bat's credit, they offer the plain Windows editor as an option, which I use.  But I miss some of the coloring features in Microed if you do that.  but I stick to it because the wordwrapping works.

But back to the plugins question, the real problem is that the Bat developers just don't spend much time developing the program.  So if you tried writing a plugin, you'd start wondering how to tie it into the application, and you'd need documentation and support form the developers.  but you wouldn't get any.  There isn't even basic documentation about using the program, there's going to be no documentation for developers.  You can't even communicate with them by email.  You have to use their bugtracking system.  So that means when you ask a question, you'll wait a day before a response.  And if you have a followup, another day, etc.  So a simple question that could be taken care of in an hour or two by bouncing emails back and forth, now takes a few days.  So you just won't be able to figure anything out.  And if you want a community to talk to, the only real option is the usenet forum, which means only a very select kind of people will be there, so it probably won't be too helpful.

The Bat has just set up a system that isolates themselves from the community.  No emailing, no discussions, nothing.  It's clear their goal is to spend as little time as possible to keep the program merely functioning.

I think it's on-topic, Armando!  Yes, you bring up the subjectivity in all of this.  Don't get me wrong, I'm not really praising Apple programs on the whole.  Whether or not we agree about elegance, I think it's clear that Apple programs are going to be generally more intuitive than their pc analogues.  I'm not saying their programs are better; if they were, I'd be using them.  But I need the power and flexibility, so I stick to Windows stuff.  What I'm trying to push for is a nicer marriage between ease of use and power than I see (generally) today.  Programs like Editpad do a good job of this.  So do mouser's programs.  I do think Windows offers an environment where this can be accomplished more so than Apple.  Why?  Because Windows doesn't place as many restrictions...even if those restrictions naturally tend simpler, easier programs.  You won't find a lot of good, powerful alternatives for programs on Apple, but you will find several with Windows.  THe price we pay is usually more complicated interfaces and more difficulty learning how to use.  Some of this may be unsolvable.  Maybe you just can't have all this freedom and power without expecting a little complexity along the way.
So I'm in no way defending one or the other.  However, with the Bat, i think they are extreme enough to warrant some criticism.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

On a related note, I do believe that elegance and beauty are not entirely subjective; I do believe that it is largely universal.  But that's a philosophical road I'd rather not go down!

At this point, you're right, it is a love/hate relationship with the Bat.  The reason why I use the bat is because i need to have all of my emails stored locally on my harddrive.  There is no better program for that than the bat.  I also prefer standalone apps over cloud apps.  I am very much against cloud apps because I don't have complete control, like I do with local programs and files.  I hesitated for a long time before using google's services online.  And I've been very happy with Google's services, but I don't think I'll ever commit entirely to them.  I treat it the same way i treat my ipad: a convenience.  It's a convenient way to get my email no matter where I am.  But my homebase is still the Bat.

I know I can be super duper critical at times, but it's usually because I care a lot about the program, not really because I'm trying to be an asshole about it.  I wouldn't discuss it this much if I didn't care.  I like the Bat a lot, and I feel it has the opportunity to fix a lot of holes it has, and make it a tremendously awesome application.  It really doesn't have to be hardcore at all.  It's an email application.  It's a matter of spending time and money, and putting in buttons and conveniences.

I also know I'm on an Apple kick lately, that's why it keeps creeping into my posts.  I think the disconnect between myself and a lot of other users here is that..well...I make a big deal out of what most people here consider insignificant things.  i know this. That's why it makes me sound like a douchebag.  I have nothing to say to that, it's true, what can I say?  I know I can just "let it go", and not expect everything to be perfect.  I just feel compelled to point it out a lot.  believe me, I'm constantly criticized for this.  The thing is, like the rest of life, it's both my strength and weakness.  It makes me sound like a douche, but it also has led to the talents I have.  So I don't fight it too much anymore, but I will apologize for offending people, because that is not my goal.

Back to the point, I'm very very obsessive about having ALL of my data in my control.  I doubt many people here have gone to the extremes that I have to do that, especially on a personal level (not for work).  I think it defines me as a computer user.  I wouldn't even care about Windows and Apple if I were not obsessive about my data.  Anyway, someone called me defensive yesterday...I think he's right!

yes, yes, and yes.  I never want my stuff on other people's servers.  At least, not exculsively.  I must have my own copies here locally, so that I can back it up and all that.  I've written here about my backup methods, which are somehwat extreme for an individual user.  I must have spent thousands of dollars on it...and this is not even for my business!  The bat, despite my complaints, is probably the only program that has the power necessary for me to be comfortable with the future of all my life's emails.  The only other one that I used to use is Pegasus mail, but I switched to the Bat after I came to DC.  One great thing about the Bat is that you probably don't have to worry about the future of your data.  The way they've done it almost guarantees that you'll be able to get whatever you need out of it if things change later.

But it really comes down to keeping my data locally.  Seriously, if not for that, I probably wouldn't even use Windows.  If I did not care about my files and folders in an obsessive way, there is no way I'd even care about computers that much.  I don't care about operating systems, I don't care about gadgets and software (other than the "cool" factor).  i wouldn't care if things were cloud or not.  I'd be like my friends who just use whatever is there.  The same way i am with cell phones.  I could care less about losing all the data on my phone or my ipad.  So I just use them because I have to.  But the pc is where my life is basically stored.  So that's why I have this love/hate thing going on.

I understand too the need to have all data locally. I do exactly the same.

But what do you need to do with your email, apart from classifying, sorting, filtering, searching and finding info in it?

Like many others I have my Google account (and others) synced with Outlook 2003. Never have a problem. And I back up my pst file everyday.

I use Windows Search to index my outlook stuff. I find everything, anything... in a flash. Same for my contacts, calendar etc. The cool thing when using Outlook is that you can also more easily use several handy features, like the "mail merge" function in MS Word (a great and not known enough feature), using your various outlook contact lists.

Oh, and everything in Outlook is easily exportable. You could even export all your emails to Gmail via imap (e.g. : for online backup purpose, if you trust Google).

There are ways to backup Gmail. Other than the "local storage" issue, it answers all the other concerns as far as I can see. *shrug*

- Oshyan

Companies all over the place are using Google Apps/Gmail, so either they don't care about security, or they've had assurances that it's secure somehow. All your email passes through multiple mail servers to get to you (and to get to your recipients) anyway so security with email is somewhat a moot point IMHO.

I wouldn't backup the full mail store every time, just do an "incremental" of sorts. The easiest way to do mail backup on Gmail for me is to run a POP or IMAP message sync. It will only update what is new. Then you just backup the resulting file (incrementally, ideally). Speed is not really an issue.

So what are these "weird things" that you do with email that Gmail can't do? Honestly I've still yet to hear a specific, concrete example, much less one that makes me think "Ohh, yeah, that makes total sense.".

- Oshyan

JJ, I can speak for myself: I do not like using cloud applications.  It's not because they "can't" do anything.  I'm sure they can all do everything anyonoe can want.  That's not it.  First, I don't like using software through the browser.  Everything is slower and browser-y.  I almost always prefer a local app.  So I'll have a hard time getting past that first point.  Furthermore, cloud apps tend to be subscription apps...yet another reason to avoid them.  i hate subscriptions.

I'm just against the idea of cloud computing.  I don't think they are nearly as responsive as local programs, including google's free ones like gmail.  Now people will ask me, what do I mean by "responsive"?  Clicking things and doing stuff is just....not as responsive.  I don't want to get into a technical thing here and measure times with a stopwatch.  I know gmail is plenty fast enough and all that.  But I don't want to use the browser as my OS.  There's a reason why I prefer Windows over other operating systems.  You really can't compare Windows to Firefox, if we're talking about using them as operating systems.  Just because we are so used to using the browser as an OS these days, doesn't mean it's better.  The local OS is still much better....in so many ways.  I'll fight committing anything to the cloud as long as I can.  I will spend money to avoid it.  I will go to very extreme measures...I'll use the Bat instead of webmail...I'll run a server to avoid Dropbox...and so forth.  If you are not concerned about using the cloud, then go for it.  But if you are after true independance, local programs are the only way to go.

Yo!  Armando...sorry, didn't respond...
I see your point.  No, I don't use all the features of the Bat, but I use enough of them where gmail just doesn't even come close to meeting my needs.  But it is extreme, my reasons are often making a mountain out of a molehill.  I'm a person who has a very difficult time just "accepting" something.  I'd rather deal with the headache, than give up the one little thing I'm obsessed about.  Anyway, some of the features I use in the Bat that are not possible with other email solutions:
--managing multiple email accounts in just the right way
--locally stored files.  easily shared between applications.  Even Outlook is not as easy to share as people seem to think, but I don't want to get into those details
--quick templates; they let me automate a lot of things.
--layout control.  most other programs don't allow you to modify the layout as much as the Bat.
--powerful filtering.  gmail doesn't have it, nor does outlook.  Gmail's is way too simple.  Outlook is just odd and stupid.

--managing multiple email accounts in just the right way
--locally stored files.  easily shared between applications.  Even Outlook is not as easy to share as people seem to think, but I don't want to get into those details
--quick templates; they let me automate a lot of things.
--layout control.  most other programs don't allow you to modify the layout as much as the Bat.
--powerful filtering.  gmail doesn't have it, nor does outlook.  Gmail's is way too simple.  Outlook is just odd and stupid.

Of course, I understand your obsessions. I'm pretty obsessive myself. However, I find that all the above can be done in Outlook well enough. Not to mention that it's much easier to find devices and services syncing with Outlook than with any other software. Yes, Gmail is way too simple for my needs also. That's why I don't manage my e-mail with it... I use Outlook to do so.

But... We obviously have different needs. And so I'd be curious to know what important action -- very specifically -- can be done in the bat which can't be done with Outlook...?

(Darwin : Hi ! )

The rules in Outlook can be tamed (I've done it!) but it's also hit and miss - ie, I can't always remember from one day to the next *how* I managed to get a rule to do what I wanted it to do! Having said that, I'm pretty sure that I haven't created a rule in Outlook 2010, possibly didn't create on in 2007, either. I've been using SimplyFile by TechHit in lieu of creating new rules and all has been well for about a year. The add-in doesn't really replace rules per se, but in combination with rules it's a snap organizing my mail just how I like it.

I wish Microsoft would make organing favouries and rules and other content more intuitive... Favourites management is about the only remaining thing that I miss from Firefox.

MacMail is straight forward.

When you have a mail where you last moved it in 3 or 4 different folders, it gives you a choice to move it to the last 3 or 4 locations where you last moved it to.

For example, those PayPal emails... you file it under [ISP], [Rent], [Mac Programs], [Windows Programs], the next time the same email comes, it gives you a choice to file it under any of those last 4 folders you want.

If it's from that user, click [File] or [Thread] to file all the threads under that folder.

Click on To-Do, if you have WiFi, it flows to your iPhone or iPad

Top notch. 

I still remember the time spending many hours filing my emails with TheBat

Sounds a lot like what SimplyFile does...

I totally understand where you're all coming from. What I love about Gmail is... it stopped me really caring about filtering, for the most part. The search is (usually) good enough that I can find what I need without having filtered it. I do use a medium-sized set of labels, but only about 10% of them are used frequently (things like "Financial"). I could and should probably get rid of at least half of them, I really never use them, they're just they're for archival organizing purposes.

Anyway back to the search. It's good and it's fast. But it's not perfect. Gmail does have some glaring omissions, like the ability to control sort methods (e.g. sort by author, reverse date sort, etc.). But again the important point is that ultimately I found the mail I'm looking for as quickly or more quickly using search than I would with filtering, folders, tags, etc. So that's a win for me.

The pitch of Gmail then is essentially "let go and let Google" (manage it). A scary mantra for many, I know. But it works for me. It's the same thing they're essentially saying about web search.

All I can say is that it can be incredibly liberating to realize you don't need all those folders. It's like the feeling Everything (file search) gives you for your file system. I care a lot less about which drive folders something is in now too. And as our volumes of data get larger and larger, I think good search (and largely auto-generated meta data) are going to become the *only* ways to really manage it, at least while maintaining your sanity.

All that being said if I could have a desktop interface to an IMAP store that does everything Gmail does as well as things desktop mail clients are better at (like sorting), then I'd be even happier. But that doesn't seem to exist yet, and desktop mail clients are not better for my needs than Gmail at this point. Too many advantages in Gmail's favor for my usage.

- Oshyan