Author Topic: The Monkeys Have Hit The Button (Read 39,710 times)

Zero3K · « **Reply #25 on:** January 15, 2009, 05:48 AM »

Yep, those that thought that it was only availble to donators are correct.

wreckedcarzz · « **Reply #26 on:** January 15, 2009, 05:55 AM »

Grr. Oh well, at least a model is out now. It's that much closer to being public, then.

Zero3K · « **Reply #27 on:** January 15, 2009, 06:01 AM »

But it'll probably take 2-4 months for a beta to be available...

fenixproductions · « **Reply #28 on:** January 15, 2009, 02:47 PM »

2Zero3K
According to some info found on their website (FAQ?) the time for alpha is one month.

40hz · « **Reply #29 on:** January 15, 2009, 07:01 PM »

Just curious...is there any particular reason why they're being so coy about the whole thing?

Zero3K · « **Reply #30 on:** January 15, 2009, 07:35 PM »

They want to protect their ideas since their data was stolen by a team member who decided to leave (!).

40hz · « **Reply #31 on:** January 15, 2009, 07:56 PM »

Quote from: Zero3K on January 15, 2009, 07:35 PM

They want to protect their ideas since their data was stolen by a team member who decided to leave (!).

I can appreciate that. But if that's the case, isn't what they're doing sort of like locking the barn after their horse has been stolen? It won't get their "ideas" back. It only serves to confuse people who are genuinely interested in what they're doing.

It also makes it harder to get donations since all you get told on their website is how "revolutionary" Cairo is without being given any technical information as to how or why.

Just my tuppence.

electronixtar · « **Reply #32 on:** January 16, 2009, 05:13 AM »

screenshots anyone?

wreckedcarzz · « **Reply #33 on:** January 16, 2009, 07:12 AM »

Quote from: electronixtar on January 16, 2009, 05:13 AM

screenshots anyone?

SS are available on the website, specifically the forum - any posting of screenshots anywhere BEFORE public alpha/beta/whatever comes after that (charlie? Too much COD4? My MP5 has no more ammo?

) is prohibited and bla bla bla...

Basically: Go to forum, see pix!

fenixproductions · « **Reply #34 on:** January 16, 2009, 12:22 PM »

One thing they did wrong: they teased everyone about product availability.

Does anyone before placed big counter for private tests? It just pissed off few people because it had suggested that everyone will see Cairo. Such tricks should be only reserved for official releases.

Eóin · « **Reply #35 on:** January 16, 2009, 01:47 PM »

I very much agree fenix.

40hz · « **Reply #36 on:** January 16, 2009, 08:16 PM »

Quote from: wreckedcarzz on January 16, 2009, 07:12 AM

Basically: Go to forum, see pix!

I did. And I didn't see much of anything other than a (very) few pretty pictures - which doesn't tell me much about anything.

Then I ran into this post:

Quote

Anyone found leaking private or unreleased Cairo materials, including but not limited to, images, data, code, or designs, collectively ('Materials'), will be banned via IP and their account removed. We reserve the right to protect our intellectual property and will consider taking any action necessary to rectify any unauthorized disclosure of Cairo Materials.

//* End Disclaimer *//

As some of you may be aware, we had someone post unreleased images of Cairo in our forums. Please note that we do not appreciate our property being released without our permission. While we understand that the itch to be the first one to see or use Cairo is hard to resist, we urge you all for the benefit of our entire community, not to scratch. We thank you all for your cooperation and offer our sincere gratitude for your continued support.

-The Cairo Development Team

Wow! I can understand not wanting their code or designs leaked - but a screenshot of a desktop? And implying they will take legal action about it? Already they're starting to sound like they're going to be one PITA group of people down the road. "Our intellectual property. "Our ideas." Me, me, me...sheesh!

So, thinking maybe I caught the developers at a bad moment, I figured I'd get a look at where the community's head is at.

Next, I opened the A cairo screenshot for those NOT in the alpha thread.

And the first thing I see is this post from somebody called jojosalami:

Quote

I thought it would be pretty harsh not to let ya'll in on all the fun we are having. Just kidding. Suffer.

All I gotta say to anyone not in the alpha is: It's amazing, it's worth the wait, it's everything you expect, it's the best thing since bacon (I'm canadian), it's lickable, it's NOT vaporware, it's amazing (I said that already?).

Trust me guys, the devs put a lot of effort in and it's fantastic.

Then this sequence of posts from various forum members followed a bit further down the page:

Quote

I still haven't/can't see any screen shots.
Are the testers not allowed to show them or are they just not posting them?

I realize it is an alpha so I don't expect much.
However, I would like to see a screen shot, maybe even a video?
Thanks

PS. For some reason I can't see the image jojosalami posted

-------------------------------------------------------------
That's because he didn't post an image.
-------------------------------------------------------------
Where is the screenshot??
I want to see the newest cairo.
-------------------------------------------------------------
Except that testers aren't allowed to post screenshots/videos.
Well, we shouldn't, we've been politely discouraged not to do so by the devs.

I, for one, plan to respect that.
-------------------------------------------------------------
i respect that.. gossip shouldn't prevail, i'm not one of the alpha testers either. :shock:
-------------------------------------------------------------
There wont be any screen shots posted by members but you never know if the team might post an image.

It is, as jojosalami, amazing and the release that you will get (ie a beta) will be even better, more features and more stable.

And that's when I gave up with the "I know something I can't tell...I know something I can't tell..." nonsense. Life's too short as it is.

IMHO: If they wanted it that private, they should have held off on the buzz-building until they released something. (I guess somebody's been reading Guy Kawasaki's "marketing" books.)

I think I'm going to ignore Cairo for the time being. I'll just wait until somebody at DC does a review when/if it finally comes out.

CWuestefeld · « **Reply #37 on:** January 16, 2009, 08:39 PM »

IANAL, but I'm pretty sure that a screen shot of someone's software cannot infringe on that person's intellectual property. This is covered under trade secrets, and what the Cairo people are doing is OK: if you agreed to secrecy to get the s/w, and then leaked it, you've breached the contract and suffer the penalties that it outlined.

But there's no worries of prosecution under DMCA or something like that (as far as I understand).

Legalities aside, this all sounds very unappealing. While Microsoft seems to be trying to be more open, this organization is taking the opposite direction.

f0dder · « **Reply #38 on:** January 17, 2009, 12:41 AM »

Sounds like a bunch of major wankers to me. What's supposed to be so great about it anyway? Certainly isn't going to be lighter on resources than the explorer shell, considering it's written in dotNET.

wreckedcarzz · « **Reply #39 on:** January 17, 2009, 12:57 AM »

Quote from: f0dder on January 17, 2009, 12:41 AM

Certainly isn't going to be lighter on resources than the explorer shell, considering it's written in dotNET.

Whats wrong with .NET? >_<

f0dder · « **Reply #40 on:** January 17, 2009, 01:03 AM »

Quote from: wreckedcarzz on January 17, 2009, 12:57 AM

Quote from: f0dder on January 17, 2009, 12:41 AM
Certainly isn't going to be lighter on resources than the explorer shell, considering it's written in dotNET.
Whats wrong with .NET? >_<

Nothing per se, but even though JIT technology has become better, it's still more heavyweight than native code.

CWuestefeld · « **Reply #41 on:** January 17, 2009, 02:42 AM »

Quote from: f0dder on January 17, 2009, 01:03 AM

Nothing per se, but even though JIT technology has become better, it's still more heavyweight than native code.
[/quote]
That's not entirely correct. It really depends on what you're doing, and what you're comparing to.

Here is one simple analysis, a few years old, finding that .Net managed code is about 1/2 as fast. But it's a very simplistic benchmark, and kinda old technology.

But here's another analysis that finds some areas in which .Net managed code outperforms C (although not overall). Good reading for the in-depth analysis of the results.

So you'll see that in some circumstances, the .Net jit compiler can be as good as what you could achieve in native C code.

f0dder · « **Reply #42 on:** January 17, 2009, 10:00 AM »

CWuestefeld: to be fair, when dealing with x86 applications, you very rarely need a lot of speed (hurts saying this, being an old assembly coder and all) - so native vs. managed often isn't going to matter a lot speed-wise. Memory overhead of managed apps is usually somewhat higher, which also isn't much of a problem on x86. Embedded is a different story, though

Also, JITted platforms has the possibility of outperforming native code (because of dynamic runtime analysis) - I just haven't seen this happen yet, seems like there still is a lot of research to be done in the JIT field.

How can you say that the 2nd benchmark outperforms C code, btw? He clearly shows that the C# compiler is somewhat retarded compared to the C compiler he uses, and ends up having to unroll the C# code to even get near to the performance of the C code (which he hasn't unrolled, btw...) - loop unrolling makes things a lot less readable. You can btw pretty much dismiss the non-optimized native results entirely. Why would you not turn on optimization for native code? (except for some cases of debugging).

And lastly, the benchmark is sorta flawed - he doesn't mention which C compiler he uses, doesn't mention the optimization settings, and the samples are very simplistic (I would have expected dotNET to do a lot better with such simple code).

electronixtar · « **Reply #43 on:** January 19, 2009, 12:06 PM »

I call these donate-software a kind of neo-shareware.

People have to 'donate' to get a certain function, people have to 'donate' to get the first preview, blah blah blah. How's that different from a shareware? Sign.

wreckedcarzz · « **Reply #44 on:** January 19, 2009, 08:04 PM »

Quote from: electronixtar on January 19, 2009, 12:06 PM

I call these donate-software a kind of neo-shareware. People have to 'donate' to get a certain function, people have to 'donate' to get the first preview, blah blah blah. How's that different from a shareware? Sign.

Yea, that's kind of the idea. I wouldn't mind paying for it if it was shareware, I like the idea and what I'm seeing/reading, but it is kind of pushing it to a limit.

That would be like mouser making a FARR v3 and those that hadn't donated to DC couldn't download it for X amount of time (taking Cario's development timespan, it looks like about 18 months?). Isn't that a little... too far? Why advertise so early?

But whatever, I'm not pointing fingers.

Coeluh · « **Reply #45 on:** January 28, 2009, 12:11 AM »

Woow this is awesome. Just cause i'm lazy i'm asking: Will all the old programs still work? Like Photoshop and Gomplayer and every other shit?

wreckedcarzz · « **Reply #46 on:** January 28, 2009, 12:21 AM »

Yea. It is just a shell. Nothing else changed.

It works basically the same as explorer (your taskbar, Start Menu, desktop and folder browser that comes with Windows since 95a). If you go to Task Manager and to the Processes tab, and Terminate explorer.exe, it would replace what just "disappeared".

To open explorer back up, go to File > Run from Task Manager, and type "explorer" or "explorer.exe"

Coeluh · « **Reply #47 on:** March 04, 2009, 10:14 PM »

I can't wait till release!