Author Topic: Another 'Lifetime' license bites the dust (Read 113,803 times)

Hirudin · « **Reply #25 on:** December 12, 2008, 11:54 PM »

Are there really programs out there that quit working after the license period has expired?

If you buy Quicken right now I'm pretty sure you're locked into their product line, but if you don't feel like buying their UPGRADED (everyone else is writing that in all caps, so I decided to as well) product you can still use their old version if I'm not mistaken.

If you create a document in Office2007 right now you can use it from now until the end of time (or the next Y2K-type bug/limitation pops up).

Carol Haynes · « **Reply #26 on:** December 13, 2008, 12:40 AM »

Quote from: zridling on December 12, 2008, 07:54 PM

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[Carol]: Actually the one that pissed me off is FruityLoops. They SOLD lifetime updates and then changed the product name from FruityLoops to FruityLoops Professional and said it was anew product.

Josh is absolutely right: you gotta stay in business first in order to offer any license, whatever it is. But I would urge every developer and company not to offer any 'lifetime' option if you're not going to honor it. Remember, it was barely a year ago when Slysoft renamed AnyDVD as AnyDVD-HD, and then came back to us lifetime licensees to buy an entirely new "lifetime" license at full price, claiming that because AnyDVD-HD was an entirely different product with more features than AnyDVD, it required a new round of cash.

The reason I was so angry was that FruityLoops SOLD lifetime updates - they weren't included in the package price you had to buy a 'life time updates' product from them. THEN they moved the goal posts.

Life time updates is pretty meaningless - all a company has to do is to stop updating the product and sell a new product under a different name that uses the same underlying technology.

Basically when you buy software DON'T buy a lifetime updates package because it probably won't happen!

mwang · « **Reply #27 on:** December 13, 2008, 01:12 AM »

I like the way EmEditor does this. It promised only minor updates (until the next major version bump), but in fact has never charged me anything for major updates (from v5.x to now v8.01).

mouser · « **Reply #28 on:** December 13, 2008, 01:29 AM »

Quote

It promised only minor updates (until the next major version bump), but in fact has never charged me anything for major updates (from v5.x to now v8.01).

my mother has been trying to drill this idea into me for years -- it's amazing how good a piece of advice it is, but how hard it is to follow sometimes:

"under-promise, over-deliver"

mwb1100 · « **Reply #29 on:** December 13, 2008, 02:54 AM »

Quote from: Hirudin on December 12, 2008, 11:54 PM

Are there really programs out there that quit working after the license period has expired?

Yes, there is software with that type of licensing. I think it is somewhat common in the 'enterprise' or server software marketplace, but it is quite rare in the consumer/individual software market. One bit of software that has this type of license is SlickEdit's "SlickEdit Core for Eclipse" (http://www.slickedit.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=162&Itemid=57). ; I'm a fan of SlickEdit's main editor product (which does not have this type of expiring license), but I could not bring myself to buy into the type of license they have on the Eclipse plug-in.

mwb1100 · « **Reply #30 on:** December 13, 2008, 03:06 AM »

Quote from: CWuestefeld on December 12, 2008, 09:14 PM

Then I'm confused about what you're paying extra for if you buy a "lifetime" license. To me, everyone should be entitled to bug fixes -- those are places where you're currently being denied the functionality that you thought were paying for in the beginning. That should be free, included in the base price.

One thing that I think is a little different with a product like AnyDVD is that they need to update/fix problems not only due to bugs, but because of intentional activities of DVD manufacturers to make DVDs uncopyable. Probably most of what goes into AnyDVD updates are changes to make the program deal with new protection techniques for new movie releases, so there is a continual R&D cost.

To my mind, I was surprised how long they kept on the Lifetime Updates policy (a main competitor of theirs, DVDFab, moved away from that policy several months ago).

mwb1100 · « **Reply #31 on:** December 13, 2008, 03:08 AM »

Quote from: Carol Haynes on December 12, 2008, 01:39 PM

SlySoft also have a good marketting ploy here - tell all your friends, post around the web .... quick buy your stuff now with lifetime updates --- while you can!

As far as whether this is a marketing ploy to gain sales this month, that may be, but I see nothing wrong with informing people of the pending change so someone considering a purchase can make their own choice of whether they want to purchase earlier than they might otherwise in order to get lifetime updates. I suspect if they made no announcement until the policy actually changed, there would be many more people complaining that they would have bought sooner if only they had known...

mwb1100 · « **Reply #32 on:** December 13, 2008, 03:20 AM »

Quote from: Darwin on December 12, 2008, 02:59 PM

Lifetime licenses that I own (I assume that they are still valid ):

...
XYplorer (lifetime license no longer available)
...

XYplorer is still available with a lifetime license, but it's at a higher cost than the standard license.

Darwin · « **Reply #33 on:** December 13, 2008, 04:36 AM »

Quote from: mwb1100 on December 13, 2008, 03:20 AM

Quote from: Darwin on December 12, 2008, 02:59 PM
Lifetime licenses that I own (I assume that they are still valid ):

...
XYplorer (lifetime license no longer available)
...

XYplorer is still available with a lifetime license, but it's at a higher cost than the standard license.

Ah, you're right, of course! Thanks for clarifying that! BTW, what is DVDFab's policy WRT grandfathering its lifetime licensees? I missed that switch entirely... Of course, they've lowered their price a number of times since I purchased, so paying for upgrades (assuming a 50% upgrade charge) wouldn't be too painful.

Josh · « **Reply #34 on:** December 13, 2008, 07:14 AM »

Quote from: Hirudin on December 12, 2008, 11:54 PM

Are there really programs out there that quit working after the license period has expired?

If you buy Quicken right now I'm pretty sure you're locked into their product line, but if you don't feel like buying their UPGRADED (everyone else is writing that in all caps, so I decided to as well) product you can still use their old version if I'm not mistaken.

If you create a document in Office2007 right now you can use it from now until the end of time (or the next Y2K-type bug/limitation pops up).

Actually, you are not locked in. Almost all major financial programs can read from quicken's formats, and quicken itself can export to the ever popular QIF import format. Quicken upgrades every year due to the constant change in tax and finance laws, they have to update each year for people who DO USE quicken for tax tracking and purposes. You are not required to update if all you do is track finances (unless your bank stops supporting older versions), even if it does you can still manually reconcile so you do not lose that ability.

mwb1100 · « **Reply #35 on:** December 13, 2008, 07:23 AM »

Quote from: Darwin on December 13, 2008, 04:36 AM

BTW, what is DVDFab's policy WRT grandfathering its lifetime licensees?

My understanding is that for purchases made prior to the change you still get lifetime updates (similar to AnyDVD's announced policy).

Carol Haynes · « **Reply #36 on:** December 13, 2008, 10:12 AM »

Yep -that is correct. I have DVDFab and they quickly sent a new registration file when I asked - but it wasn't automatic.

DonL · « **Reply #37 on:** December 13, 2008, 11:38 AM »

Quote from: zridling on December 12, 2008, 09:43 AM

There's still two left in the 'Lifetime' license club:
- Total Commander file manager
- WinRAR archiver

What others are there?

- XYplorer (previously TrackerV3) always had a lifetime license and still has one. Customer Number One from April 2000 is still happily using the app without any additional payment ever.

zridling · « **Reply #38 on:** December 13, 2008, 12:14 PM »

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[DonL]: XYplorer (previously TrackerV3) always had a lifetime license and still has one. Customer Number One from April 2000 is still happily using the app without any additional payment ever.

Thanks Don! The one thing I appreciate it is that XYplorer has a donation link for guys like me who benefit from that across major versions. You don't have to donate, but I'm glad the option is there. I contacted the WinRAR guys about donating last year and they thought I was nuts. Go figure.

Quote

[Josh]: This is yet again proof that the modern day person expects everything to be free on the net because it can be pirated for free. Lifetime updates means just that, lifetime updates.

Far too many do. When you consider the incredible odds of building, and then sustaining, a good app over time, it's an extremely improbable event. Pirates suck the motivation out of coding for a living. Whether by donations or license fees, devs should be able to go to the bank. And if they are one of fortunate few to make enough so they don't have to work a side job, then all the more power to them. Instead of pirating, use free software and be happy with it. If you can code, contribute and make it better. Otherwise, pay up.

But given the complexity of explaining what Slysoft is doing here, at the very least it confuses users. I paid for lifetime licenses for both regular and HD versions. But to save myself future money on licenses and present money on discs, I setup an old (networked) PC in the living room and watch movies from it rather than bother converting them (to disc).

Josh · « **Reply #39 on:** December 13, 2008, 12:37 PM »

Conversion takes far too long zaine, that is why I have yet to do it. When you have a collection of almost 800 movies, it is not justifiable to spend the time. Just pop in the disc when needed. That is what my media center PC does for me.

I agree wholeheartedly with you regarding the piracy issue. People expect that because they can pirate something that it should be free or almost no cost. Now that I am to the point, financially, I have no problem supporting programs I enjoy and use. I am running almost no, I say almost because I still cannot justify spending the ungodly price for photoshop, pirated software. Granted, photoshop is my next purchase because my wife is starting her degree in photography. So for me, it is justifiable as an education expense.

This thread alone is proof that people often times do not understand the concepts implimented in software. When I purchased AnyDVD, I KNEW that I was getting free updates to the ANYDVD product which DECRYPTED DVDS. I bought this when DVD was just a fledgling technology and knew that it would be a while before I would have to invest in something new. But now that this new technology has presented itself, i gladly paid my extra money for my license to the HD addon because I was going to take advantage of the upgraded technology. As much as people hate the idea, BRD is not DVD. Yes, they both use optical discs for storage, but that is the end of the similarities. Different codecs are used, different encoding schemes, different protections, different hardware is required.

J-Mac · « **Reply #40 on:** December 16, 2008, 09:14 AM »

All I can say is that I purchased AnyDVD and CloneDVD (from Slysoft and ElaborateBytes respectively) just shy of five years ago and have been notified of all updates and upgrades. Never charged for one of them. And they have provided support much more quickly - and very helpful support - consistently over the whole life of the product thus far. Plus my licenses will remain lifetime, according to the news release from Gordon at Slysoft. I can't complain at all!

BTW, AnyDVD truly WAS a different product. THe original AnyDVD did, and still does, remove all protection from commercial DVD's in real time as you copy or rip them. AnyDVD-HD does the same but for HD-DVD and Blu-Ray disks. The format of those is different enough to justify an entirely new product IMO.

Jim

J-Mac · « **Reply #41 on:** December 16, 2008, 09:19 AM »

Another one to add to the list of lifetime licenses is MediaMonkey Gold license. AFAIK they have never reneged on this. they also offer a free version and a regular license that is good through one major upgrade cycle.

Jim

markan · « **Reply #42 on:** December 16, 2008, 10:57 AM »

If the product is being enhanced beyond simple bug fixes then a developer has to fund themselves in some way (unless they do it purely as a hobby). Lifetime licenses work when you are selling a lot of new licenses. When the sales tail off, either because the market matures, or like now, people rein in their spending then we have to expect people to change their models.

I agree though that it is wrong to change models for existing customers, but I also think that where a product is being significantly enhanced then it is not unreasonable at some point to say it is a new product and move to upgrade pricing.

On the flip side a subscription model only works for me if the developer is having to constantly adapt their product. I see this making sense for things like AV products. If there is no compelling need to release rapid update then a subscription is just a license to print money, and if there is user's data involved it is getting close to extortion

zridling · « **Reply #43 on:** December 16, 2008, 07:43 PM »

Thanks for MediaMonkey Gold, J-Mac!

Dormouse · « **Reply #44 on:** December 16, 2008, 10:22 PM »

Quote from: markan on December 16, 2008, 10:57 AM

a developer has to fund themselves in some way ... When the sales tail off, either because the market matures, or like now, people rein in their spending then we have to expect people to change their models.

The problem is the idea that a change of model will solve the income shortage. The best model for a product is the best model for that product whatever the state of the economy. There are things that can be done to bring income forwards, but moving to a different model will not improve things unless the wrong model was used in the first place. The danger of making an abrupt and major change is that it will affect the perception of customers and future customers in a way that can't be undone.

As you say, a lifetime model only really works if there will always be a supply of new customers. It can make people more likely to buy (sometimes much more likely) and can be a useful differentiator from competitors. So it is not necessarily a bad model for many products. And many people lose their license details and still upgrade their hardware from time to time - can be tempted to buy a new license. Usage of a program is often short or medium term (say between 2 and 6 years) - so there may not be a huge loss compared to an Upgrade cycle model (and on upgrade models, many people have another look at the competition every time they are asked to fork out again).

Annual licenses generally play poorly in the consumer market except for AVs - and then only because people are scared into it. I would be surprised if many products can increase their long-term income by moving to this model, wherever they start from.

40hz · « **Reply #45 on:** December 17, 2008, 03:45 AM »

Quote from: mouser on December 13, 2008, 01:29 AM

Quote
It promised only minor updates (until the next major version bump), but in fact has never charged me anything for major updates (from v5.x to now v8.01).

my mother has been trying to drill this idea into me for years -- it's amazing how good a piece of advice it is, but how hard it is to follow sometimes:

"under-promise, over-deliver"

Your Mom is a very wise woman.

But I'd be happy with just "Deliver." I've stopped listening to promises. They get me angry.

My father used to say: "There are a thousand and one reasons why something doesn't get done. And about half of those reasons are probably good ones. But in the end, the only thing that really matters is whether or not that 'something' got done."

He probably would have gotten along very well with your Mom.

zridling · « **Reply #46 on:** December 17, 2008, 03:48 AM »

Perhaps, Dormouse, but that's why I like the donation option for software with lifetime licenses. No one has to donate a dime, but for someone like me who has benefitted from WinRAR, XYplorer, et al. for years, there's only so many licenses I can buy for family. Once a year or so, I'd like the option to donate on impulse a small amount -- $10, $20, or $25 -- just to say thanks for continued development.

I think most developers think that users would see this as covertly greedy, but I hope they don't. It's merely an option that's there.

J-Mac · « **Reply #47 on:** December 17, 2008, 05:04 AM »

I have donated - at least once - to every developer whose freeware application I have tried and liked enough to continue using. To me that makes sense; I would like them continue development and that is one small way I can help to give that a chance. Of course the developer may still decide to give up on an application anyway. I have seen forums of freeware developers where there seems to be a constant supply of picky users demanding that they add this feature or change that feature - as if they have paid a year's salary to use the program when in reality they haven't paid a dime. I can see why someone may decide to stop developing! But even if they don’t continue, if I use the program for a decent length of time I feel I should donate if I can.

Jim

allen · « **Reply #48 on:** December 17, 2008, 06:09 AM »

In response to the originally posed question, WinPatrol registration is still life time.

zridling · « **Reply #49 on:** December 18, 2008, 12:22 PM »

Thanks Allen.