Author Topic: WINDOWS 7 THREAD (ongoing) (Read 244,562 times)

f0dder · « **Reply #200 on:** February 05, 2009, 12:03 AM »

Quote from: Darwin on February 04, 2009, 11:48 PM

As far as I can tell, the three app limit is Netbook only and I surmise it's to keep users from overloading the hardware - non?

Just an arbitrary limit to segment the market and sell more versions and confuse users, *SIGH*.

Lashiec · « **Reply #201 on:** February 05, 2009, 12:20 AM »

It does not make sense at all. Starter is replaced by Home Basic in emerging markets (and no, it's not available in the rest of the world), and instead of killing Starter once and for all, they decide to bundle it with netbooks with such artificial limitations. People will flock to Linux in mass, or even worse for Microsoft, they'll keep XP, forcing them to continue support services for God knows how many time.

Meanwhile the nVidia ION chipset for Atom CPUs is capable of playing HD video without problems. And you say a netbook can't run more than three apps at a time? What a joke.

Now, despite this, no one is saying netbook makers will bundle the Starter edition with their systems, but Microsoft is supposedly targeting the market with this edition.

Carol Haynes · « **Reply #202 on:** February 05, 2009, 02:13 AM »

The way I understand it is that for general usage they have Home Premium and Professional (as in XP).

They still have an Ultimate edition for anyone gullible/stupid enough to pay extra for not real gain and Enterprise licenses which businesses will be suspicious of until two weeks before the new version of Windows is released and then decide to pass on it (they will all still be limping on with Windows XP).

With Win 7 Starter and Home Basic they basically have two packages that show little or no commitment to solving real issues. If they really want to help emerging economies they could do so very simply by having very low prices on Home Premium and Professional versions in those markets. OK some copies would spill out into other markets but so what - giving Home Basic to poor countries is just a slap in the face and shows that MS really don't care about those markets - they are purely interested in maintaining hiked pricing structures in the rest of the world whilst trying to give the appearance of caring.

As for Win 7 Starter MS knows that they can't cram a quart into a pint pot and they have backed themselves into a corner. First, they can't keep extending XP licensing on netbooks without losing face even more than they have done already. Second, they only extended XP licensing to maintain some market in the netbook class because they knew Vista would kill any potential future market if they tried to get vendors to install it. Win 7 Starter is really a simple admission that Windows from version 7 onwards is going to replace XP but that it doesn't actually work properly.

I would guess two things will happen in the next year or two - Linux will be the OS of choice for manufacturers of Netbooks because they won't want to piss off customers by selling them a more expensive but crappier product and MS will come up with its own Netbook (either in house or under license) that runs a tweaked version of Windows 7. It will be about as successful as Zune (i.e. a total catastophe) and MS will spend 2 to 3 years telling everyone how successful it was before binning it and they reinstate a Windows XP type OS for OEM netbooks.

justice · « **Reply #203 on:** February 05, 2009, 09:53 AM »

i hope you can install other versions of windows 7 yourself on netbooks. that arbritrary limitation just sucks tho, microsoft still doesn't get it. Windows 8 will be able to run 5 applications then, wow definately got to upgrade to that - best wait

40hz · « **Reply #204 on:** February 05, 2009, 04:01 PM »

Quote from: Carol Haynes on February 05, 2009, 02:13 AM

I would guess two things will happen in the next year or two - Linux will be the OS of choice for manufacturers of Netbooks because they won't want to piss off customers by selling them a more expensive but crappier product and MS will come up with its own Netbook (either in house or under license) that runs a tweaked version of Windows 7. It will be about as successful as Zune (i.e. a total catastophe) and MS will spend 2 to 3 years telling everyone how successful it was before binning it and they reinstate a Windows XP type OS for OEM netbooks.

I think you've hit it spot on.

And once they do, their biggest challenge will be to come up with yet another insipid name for it. That, and how to break it into six or seven inconsistently overlapping versions with at at least 12 different price tags.

Then there's the ad campaign:

Try Microsoft Windows MS-VistaXP-7-i686-Me for Workgroups
Yesterday's Technology at Tomorrow's Prices!

Hmmm...that probably wouldn't be the best ad slogan even if it were the most accurate.

Darwin · « **Reply #205 on:** February 05, 2009, 06:06 PM »

Quote from: 40hz on February 05, 2009, 04:01 PM

Hmmm...that probably wouldn't be the best ad slogan even if it were the most accurate.

Volvo: boxy but good!

Darwin · « **Reply #206 on:** February 05, 2009, 06:08 PM »

Quote from: f0dder on February 05, 2009, 12:03 AM

Quote from: Darwin on February 04, 2009, 11:48 PM
As far as I can tell, the three app limit is Netbook only and I surmise it's to keep users from overloading the hardware - non?
Just an arbitrary limit to segment the market and sell more versions and confuse users, *SIGH*.

Crap. You (and other respondents) are probably right... I've yet to play with a Netbook, so have no idea of their capabilities, though a friend just bought one for her daughter, so I hope to have an opportunity soon.

40hz · « **Reply #207 on:** February 05, 2009, 08:55 PM »

Here's more info/commentary on all the various editions planned for Windows 7 courtesy of PCMag.com

Link: http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2340338,00.asp

Quote

The Windows 7 Versions: What You Need to Know

...

In this article, we'll attempt to give you as many details about the new operating systems as we can, based on Microsoft's own documents that describe the new updates.

[attach]

Darwin · « **Reply #208 on:** February 05, 2009, 09:34 PM »

I hear, ya, 40hz! I’ve pretty much abandoned the beta in favour of Vista. It’s stable, it’s attractive, and it does what I want it to do, when I need it to, efficiently, quickly and without drama. Why on earth am I even considering messing around with a beta OS? BTW, you will have inferred that I’ve not yet gotten around to installing Win 7 on actual hardware (as opposed to my VM install), and you’d be correct! I don’t think I’m going to bother, either. I haven’t run the VM in at least two weeks and feel no urge to any time soon, either...

I’ll wait for Windows 7 to be released and re-assess at that time. No doubt I’ll be waiting for SP-1 before upgrading, though.

40hz · « **Reply #209 on:** February 06, 2009, 02:59 AM »

Quote from: Darwin on February 05, 2009, 09:34 PM

I hear, ya, 40hz! I’ve pretty much abandoned the beta ...

I’ll wait for Windows 7 to be released and re-assess at that time. No doubt I’ll be waiting for SP-1 before upgrading, though.

I think we're both sitting in the same pew for that one.

I got so annoyed by the whole 'version thing' that I zapped the beta from the test drive it was on. That 200GB is now home to a bright and shiny new T2 SDE I'd been meaning to set up for quite a while.

I think I'll worry about dealing with Win7 when it finally comes out.

Hirudin · « **Reply #210 on:** February 06, 2009, 07:36 AM »

How many Vista Home Basic computers have you guys seen? I've maybe seen one, but I might be mistaken. The 7 Home Basic (whatever it's called) will pretty much go undistributed. It's quite possible they want a "version" of Windows 7 that is cheap so they can say "Windows 7 starting at $79.99". Pretty much bait and switch, but the bait will be there, just nobody in their right mind will buy it.

Quote from: Lashiec on February 03, 2009, 07:55 PM

After this short break, let's put the thread on the right path ()

Nice job!

zridling · « **Reply #211 on:** February 12, 2009, 12:12 PM »

MS To Offer Free Windows 7 Upgrade To Vista Users. (Now, I wonder why they'd do that?)
http://it.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=09/02/11/238222&from=rss

justice · « **Reply #212 on:** February 12, 2009, 12:16 PM »

Uhm haven't they always done this? if you get a new pc with the old os within a small period before or after the new os launches you get the upgrade. nothing new? It's not like they're going to run a campaign where everyone gets a free os.

zridling · « **Reply #213 on:** February 12, 2009, 12:26 PM »

I don't think the window has ever been this far out. Still, this is great news. I think people will sit on Win7 for a long time when they buy their next computer, much like they've done with XP. Everything else will be happening in the cloud, which makes MS Office 2007/09 the biggest loser.

f0dder · « **Reply #214 on:** February 12, 2009, 01:23 PM »

Quote from: zridling on February 12, 2009, 12:26 PM

Everything else will be happening in the cloud, which makes MS Office 2007/09 the biggest loser.

You keep saying this, I keep doubting this.

Carol Haynes · « **Reply #215 on:** February 12, 2009, 02:56 PM »

MS is building cloud like facilities into Office 2007 already (through Microsoft Update) and many big software companies are looking towards a cloud based future (Adobe's Acrobat.com, the whole of Google, MS's live.com etc) and it is on;y going to get more competitive.

Unfortunately they all see this as the next cash cow in computer terms - and with the growth of netbooks etc. I think it is going to get more an more integrated into operating systems.

I don't want it, I don't like it and I will resist any attempt to get me to use it (unless it is to my benefit) but I can't help feeling that at some point it will become more difficult to avoid it and that is when cloud computing will become essential to most users and computers will become little more than appliances (glorified TVs and DVD recorders with internet access).

Sad but it is coming.

40hz · « **Reply #216 on:** February 12, 2009, 04:59 PM »

Quote from: Carol Haynes on February 12, 2009, 02:56 PM

MS is building cloud like facilities into Office 2007 already ...

***
I don't want it, I don't like it and I will resist any attempt to get me to use it (unless it is to my benefit) but I can't help feeling that at some point it will become more difficult to avoid it and that is when cloud computing will become essential to most users and computers will become little more than appliances (glorified TVs and DVD recorders with internet access).

Sad but it is coming.

Apparently Microsoft is looking to upgrade their corporate "fog machine" with a shiny new cloud machine.

Either way, the forecast calls for rain.

Quote

Rows and floes of angel hair,
And ice cream castles in the air,
And feather canyons everywhere.
Ive looked at clouds that way.

But now they only block the sun,
They rain and snow on everyone.
So many things I would have done,
But clouds got in my way...

Ive looked at clouds from both sides now,
From up and down, and still somehow,
It's cloud illusions I recall...

I really don't know clouds at all.

(From the song: Both Sides Now by Joni Mitchell)

"I can hardly wait," 40hz says sarcastically.

zridling · « **Reply #217 on:** February 13, 2009, 12:13 AM »

Quote from: f0dder on February 12, 2009, 01:23 PM

Quote from: zridling on February 12, 2009, 12:26 PM
Everything else will be happening in the cloud, which makes MS Office 2007/09 the biggest loser.
You keep saying this, I keep doubting this.

As a quick tangent, here's why I think MS Office 2007/09 is the last of its kind.

Cost: Let's face it: most of us are broke and are looking for things we can live without. Buying into MS Office lures you into using Microsoft's proprietary formats which means vendor lock-in which means you buy into its ecosphere and BAM! next thing you know, you're buying the upgrade, too. Never forget how the ordinary person freaks out over the word "free." Must be built into human nature by now. Finally, why pay for what I neither need nor use, or for something that prevents me from leaving and taking my data with me? (In my case, Microsoft doesn't do Linux, so using MS-OOXML is out of the question.)

.

Breadth: Most users don't need that much functionality. I wrote papers, theses, and one very fat dissertation (w/formulae) using MS Office (Word 1.1/Excel 2.2)-2000. Office 2003 was perfected to me. (Was I the only one who used the 'Research Pane'?) And mind you, OpenOffice 3 also does a whole lot of everything for its 160Mb.

.

Learning Curve: This depends on how you work and what you need to do, but it remains real. It's that last 10% of the program that takes study.

.

The Cloud: As cliche as this term has become, when I can import and work with any MS or ODF file inside of a free office suite like Zoho Office or to a lesser extent, Google Docs, and then return it to its source without a single hitch, the previous three reasons are suddenly come to light. Better, the document is already formatted in HTML and ready to be shared online rather than in print, which again is cheaper and faster. And when you see how IBM is tying Lotus Symphony between client and cloud (or Google's G-Drive, Amazon's S3), it's exciting to know that your data is no longer hostage to your latest local backup or next HD failure.

Here's Zoho's simple toolbar, which gives me a lot of functionality at a glance:
[attach]

f0dder · « **Reply #218 on:** February 13, 2009, 12:51 AM »

I'd much rather go with (relatively) slow OpenOffice and LOCAL FILES THAT I AM IN CONTROL OF than limited-functionality internet-depending cloud crap

zridling · « **Reply #219 on:** February 13, 2009, 03:08 AM »

That's just it. Doesn't have to exist online, since several of these office apps now provide local versions.

Carol Haynes · « **Reply #220 on:** February 13, 2009, 09:34 AM »

There are a number of assumptions about how people ARE ABLE to work.

It has become increasingly clear to me in recent months that even people working within the line of sight of where I live have very different broadband experiences (from non-existent to barely faster than dial up and very error prone to fast and efficient) and I know from other user comments in these forums that these problems occur all over the world - even in the USA, especially in non-urban areas.

Given that there is a growth in 'work from home' models sorting out decent and affordable internet access has to be a priority but companies who provide these services are limited to what is cost effective.

Not only is broadband highly sporadic and variable in the area in which I live and work but it is becoming increasingly difficult to get decent dial-up services and when you do get them to work the internet is fast becoming a place that doesn't effectively support dial-up users.

This seriously limits the effectiveness of the 'cloud' model. The problems of internet access are only going to get worse as the number of users grow exponentially worldwide - effectively drowning the bandwidth capacity of the WWW.

If you can access it I agree that you can backup your data on your own system from some 'cloud' systems but when people and companies buy into the idea and spend a lot of time and effort getting access and security sorted out what happens when the big companies such as MS see other companies (such as Zoho) doing well and come along offering a deal that can't be missed to sell off their service?

This has happened so many times in the past with online services and software solutions (and seems to be a model many online companies are actively courting because it is a way to become very rich very quickly) .

Just taking Zoho as an example - if it is bought out there is no guarantee the service will be continued. Even if it does continue there is no guarantee that it will remain free. OK you can move on to another provider but if you have invested a lot of time and money training employees how one system works (not to mention implementing backup systems and evaluating and setting up security systems) you are not going to be very happy when you wake up one morning to find out your entire infrastructure has closed down - or is likely to in the next month or two.

There is also the whole confidentiality issue. The war on terror has seen many terrifying liberties taken with personal freedom in the US and the UK (and probably other countries too). Recently the UK wanted to build a database of EVERY email sent and received, internet browsing history and even mobile phone calls for every UK citizen (in the name of combating terrorism). As it happens the non-elected parts of UK government managed to get the proposals thrown out (so much for democracy) but if this proposal rears its ugly head what is to stop governments demanding legal access to any files stored in cloud systems. Are businesses really going to be happy storing anything sensitive where there is the potential that governments (and even potentially foreign governments) can simply access everything at the touch of a button (and possibly even store archive copies)? It is already illegal in the UK to use encrypted email because the government want to be able to intercept and read your mail!

On a personal level I can see the cloud being a convenient form of storage and access but I can't see businesses jumping at the idea.

On another comment from Zaine - how does MS lock you into proprietary formats? OK if you use MS formats they are proprietary but every MS app allows you to save documents in open formats (such as HTML) and always has. AFAIK Office 2007 is the first time in about 15 years where new file formats have been introduced to their office suites and even so you can still set the apps to only use the old formats - they have also produced addons for older products that allow the new file formats to be opened in older products so there is no particular lock-in and there is no necessity to upgrade.

I don't usually sing the praises of MS but we have to remember that MS Office was (and always has been) aimed at the corporate market and most of the innovations since Office 97 have been aimed at that corporate sector. It is testament to the quality of the software that individual users have adopted the software for home use too even when there are viable free alternatives.

zridling · « **Reply #221 on:** February 15, 2009, 10:03 AM »

Excellent points, Carol.

Broadband access and cost
This is a real concern, and not just in your backyard. In the US, broadband access is seriously overpriced and getting slower by the day compared to other countries. Anyone noticed Korea lately?! If it were up to me, governments should provide broadband access to everyone, not the private sector. As for repeated attempts to constrict personal liberty at the expense of your IP address, that's what both the US and UK have become this decade. The sheer [will to] POWER to spy on every single part of our lives is never satisfied. Even George Orwell would be aghast.

The future of cloud companies
True, anyone could be bought out. But though there's been many online suites, only the best have survived to date. Microsoft can't decide whether it wants to buy Yahoo or not, so its own online strategy is a murky as anything else it does. Does anyone know where Microsoft is taking Azure and Live, btw?

Vendor lock-in; proprietary formats
Microsoft practices this even in Office 2007 by not accurately converting documents from or to other formats. Remember the seriously bloated HTML code that Office 2000 and 2003 saved in? It was astounding. Office 2007 still uses proprietary elements within MS-OOXML which it does not share with other vendors, even though it's an ISO standard format now. To read .doc files, you have to use compatibility mode. Point is, I couldn't keep up with it, nor could 18 years of Microsoft-formatted documents I had accumulated. Switching to ODF (which is not dependent on OpenOffice alone) cured that. On any Linux machine, for example, I can easily open and change the contents of any ODF file from the command line.

I can't dispute the excellence of MS Office in many, many ways. Just its (proprietary) formats.

zridling · « **Reply #222 on:** February 16, 2009, 03:02 PM »

Windows 7 Vs. Linux: The Battle For Your Desktop
by Serdar Yegulalp

Some of the highlights of Win7 and why it won't dent Linux, but will put XP and Vista to rest.

nontroppo · « **Reply #223 on:** February 17, 2009, 09:39 AM »

It seems Win 7 allows software vendors to bypass your firewall and lock you out of your own settings folder as a result of tinkering with a legitimate copy of a piece of software:

http://tech.slashdot.org/firehose.pl?id=3443509&op=view

Quote

That's not so much a surprise, but what WAS a surprise: Noting that Win7 allows programs like Photoshop to stealthily insert themselves in your firewall exception list. Further, that the OS is crippled towards allowing large software vendors to penetrate your machine. Even further, that that crippling is responsible for disabling of a program based on a modified .dll. Remote attestation, anyone? And then finding that the OS even after reboot has locked you out of your own Local Settings folder; has denied you permission to move or delete the modified DLL; and refuses to allow the replacement of the Local Settings folder after it is unlocked with Unlocker to move it to the Desktop for examination (where it also denies you entry to your own folder). Setting permissions to "allow everyone" was disabled

MS gives with one hand then steals much more back with the other. Perhaps it is just some modified UAC, and we need more details, but it sure does seem draconian.

Palladium is still (stealthily) slowly on the March for Windows users, and it still stinks!

Edvard · « **Reply #224 on:** February 17, 2009, 07:41 PM »

Ok, now they are just going ahead and shooting themselves right square in the foot.
Sure, software makers and music labels have rights to soak you for whatever you're willing to pay, but this is really going farther than is really necessary. If anything kills DRM, things like this will.