What to do when you receive bootleg videos?

[Carol Haynes]

I placed an order on UK eBay for a set of 3 hard to find VHS videos for a TV series. The series has never been released on DVD and the VHS tapes have been out of print for over 10 years and so they can be quite hard to find. Considering their age I paid a fairly high price but figured rarity value made them worth it to me.

The videos arrived and looked fine but I had some issues playing them. The first two tapes had sound that was either muffled or interrupted every couple of minutes by a couple of seconds of buzzing. The third tape cut off before the end of the final episode (and was definitely at the end of the tape as I could see the clear leadout tape). All three tapes had 'soft', slightly blown images but I figured that could be age related. The seller had a 100% positive rating (and a high number of transactions) so I wasn't especially worried about authenticity.

I began to worry when I looked at other items the seller had listed and found more copies of this rare series. Also a buyer had reported they had received bootleg VHS tapes since my purchase. I was even more worried when I got a friendly reply offering to replace the tapes.

How could the seller possibly have multiple sets of this rare collection?

Looking at the inlay covers (out of the case plastic) it is obvious that they are reasonable scanned versions of the originals but the paper stock is definitely wrong and the printing has slight banding (not visible without removing the inlay sheets and looking closely), which suggests an inkjet printer. The labels on the tapes themselves have a fuzzy quality the Paramount labels don't usually have.

Not really sure what to do now. I have demanded a refund and that if the seller wants the tapes back they can add to the refund sufficient payment to cover the return costs.

I don't like being a grass but should I be reporting this to eBay? If the seller is making a lot of money doing this should I also be reporting it elsewhere? Or should I simply put it down to experience, assuming I get a refund (which I will via PayPal if necessary) ?

What do people think?

[Ampa]

I'd say YES, eBay should know that the seller is trading in pirated / stolen goods. The seller is being dishonest to you the customer, and profiting from goods that they have no right to sell.

[mwb1100]

I don't like being a grass...

Took me a while to google-out what this meant ("grass" is such a common word).  For anyone else unfamiliar with the british-slang, it would mean something like "I don't like squealing..."

[mouser]

mwb, good catch.

sounds like this is an example of "rhyming slang":

grass  Noun. 1. An informer. Possibly from the rhyming slang grass in the park - 'nark', meaning informer. E.g."Don't tell John about this, he's a grass and I don't want to get into trouble." - from http://www.peevish.co.uk/slang/g.htm

to an outsider, british rhyming slang is so cool.

[PhilB66]

In simple English... to tell on/tell over/rat out someone. Go on Carol grass on the dude. I will not call you a grass. see definition @ http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=grass

[cranioscopical]

What do people think?

I think you should fink. Once will do, don't fink twice about it!

Seriously, you'll be doing your fellow eBayers a favour. Don't you wish someone had prevented this from happening to you?

[app103]

In addition to informing Ebay, you might want to contact Paypal too.

If you used PayPal (I hope you did) they have ways of dealing with the counterfeiters and may require you to turn the merchandise over to them for examination. They should give you a refund in this case since it is definitely "significantly not as described" according to the terms of the user agreement.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

13.11 Significantly Not As Described. To the extent that we provide reimbursement for losses for items that are Significantly Not as Described when received by the buyer (which we may do under all programs except the Buyer Complaint Policy), an item is Significantly Not as Described if the seller clearly misrepresented the details of the item in a way that affects its value or usability. This does not include cases where the buyer is merely disappointed with the item or where the item did not meet the buyer's expectations. Here are some of the reasons that an item may be considered Significantly Not as Described:

  1. The item is a completely different item than that represented by the seller in the listing, e.g. an audio book instead of a printed book, a desktop computer instead of a laptop, a picture of an item instead of the actual item; or an empty box.
  2. The condition of the item is significantly different. For example, if the item has clearly been used multiple times rather than almost new or still in box or is obviously repackaged rather than mint.
  3. The item is unusable and was not disclosed as such. For example, if there are missing major parts or components, will not function or turn on or is spoiled or past a relevant date. This applies to the item in its received state, no matter what the condition when it was shipped.
  4. The item was advertised as authentic but is not authentic. For example, a fake or knock-off item that was advertised as authentic or a completely different or inferior brand of a similar product.
  5. The item is missing a major portion or quantity. For example, if the buyer ordered four dozen golf balls but only received one dozen or four golf balls, or the item is missing a primary component, like a blender missing a top or a coffee maker missing the bottom plate.

[Carol Haynes]

Thanks all - I have launched a claim via PayPal. Initially I will let the seller sort it out and report it formally to eBay and PayPal when I have my money back!

[f0dder]

Definitely report to both paypal and ebay. Piracy is one thing, but profiting from piracy, and not making it obvious he's selling counterfeits? That's outright disgusting.

[cathodera]

I will be the minority opinion holder and suggest that you talk to the seller a little bit, to rule out the possibility that s/he might have purchased something that was fraudulently labeled, and just thrown it up on eBay.

It is true that you might be dealing with someone who deliberately seeks to mislead people about what they are selling, but you might also be dealing with someone who is not that knowledgeable or sophisticated, and if that is the case, you could have the opportunity for what educators would call a "teaching moment," meaning that you might be able to do the person a favor by educating them a little bit about it all, maybe give them some pointers to sites that they can visit to learn more about it, etc.

So whether you should tell eBay would, to me, depend on whether you would be "ratting" on a person who was knowingly engaging in shady business practices, or someone who is just as much a victim of those practices as you are!

[Carol Haynes]

I am pretty sure she is engaging in selling fake videos deliberately.

The video set I ordered is very rare (you rarely even see them on eBay) but in the last two weeks she has been selling three separate sets of these videos plus she offered to replace my 'faulty' copy.

I had a response this morning through PayPal saying that she wants me to return the tapes (at my expense) before she will make a refund. I have now escalated it to a full claim under PayPal's guarantee system. They may well require proof that the  tapes are bootlegs so I don't want to send them back until there is a resolution - and she can damn well pay the postage.

If I have to get written proof that the tapes are fake anyone any idea who I can get to authenticate them and write a statement for PayPal. Presumably the police can do it but I can't think who else to ask given that VHS tapes have pretty much disappeared from the marketplace?

[MikeMcLoughlin]

Just out of interest and say if it's none of my business - I was curious as to what the series was?

[app103]

This is from the updated policy of Paypal, effective May 7, 2008:

(

3) Section 9.1(d) Restricted Activities is being amended to add a restriction against using your PayPal account to sell counterfeit items.

(4) Section 10.7 Attorneys' Fees for Acceptable Use Policy Litigation/Arbitration is being deleted. The following language is being deleted:

"If either you or PayPal commence litigation or arbitration in connection with a fine or other action taken related to our Acceptable Use Policy, the prevailing party will be entitled to recover reasonable attorneys' fees and costs in addition to any other relief to which it may be entitled."

(5) Section 13.7 (b) is being amended to add the following language:

"If a buyer files a Claim for Significantly Not as Described and alleges that an item is counterfeit, PayPal may require the buyer and seller to provide affidavits and other evidence to support their positions. PayPal shall make the final determination whether to grant the buyer's claim based on the provided evidence, as well as third party evidence and evaluations. If PayPal grants the buyer's claim, the buyer must ship the item to PayPal or a third party (as directed by PayPal). PayPal, in its discretion, may require the buyer or the seller to pay for the return shipping costs. Once the item has been received by PayPal or the third party, the seller must refund the transaction amounts (including the original shipping costs) to the buyer. If PayPal grants the buyer's claim, the seller may not receive the item back."

Just do what paypal orders you to do, not what the seller suggests.

Do not have any further communication with the seller....only ebay & paypal.

Under no circumstances are you to ship the item back to the seller unless ORDERED by ebay or paypal, whether it is at your expense or not. Make sure it is an order and not merely a suggestion.

Do not hire any type of 'expert' unless you are told to by paypal or ebay. If you need to find your own expert, the police station would be a great place to start looking. They could either confirm what you have stated and agree with it after a quick examination of the packaging, of it is that obvious that it is a fake, or suggest where/who can. Customs agents are usually pretty good at spotting fakes too, since they are trained for that stuff. Find one that is not a young kid, that has never seen a commercially released VHS tape before.

Make sure if you have to hire an expert, to put in a claim for that expense to be refunded to you, as well. Ordering merchandise shouldn't have to cost you a small fortune to get a refund from paypal, when the seller was committing an act of fraud and should be charged with all your expenses.

[Carol Haynes]

Just out of interest and say if it's none of my business - I was curious as to what the series was?

"Dear John" the UK version ... long out of print. Was due to be released on DVD but then withdrawn before release. Just a favourite comedy of the time.

Just do what paypal orders you to do, not what the seller suggests.

Do not have any further communication with the seller....only ebay & paypal.

Under no circumstances are you to ship the item back to the seller unless ORDERED by ebay or paypal, whether it is at your expense or not. Make sure it is an order and not merely a suggestion.

This is the problem I have now. The seller has responded to my PayPal claim saying she will issue a full refund if I return the tapes at my expense. Without any sort of investigation PayPal are now telling me that I should return the items using a trackable courier (expensive) and then I will have no proof that it was a bootleg. Why should I incur the costs to return illegal goods anyway?

The disputes panel on PayPal won't let me send any further messages - only the return shipping details.

I have now emailed PayPal and eBay customer services with my concerns and also quoted the claim reference.

At the moment I am tempted to bear the loss for the moment and simply report the whole thing to the police and possibly issue a lawsuit in the small claims court to recover the money.

[cranioscopical]

One might have hoped for a more responsible reaction to suspect product.
It'll be interesting to see what you get back from PayPal/eBay customer services.
If PayPal/eBay won't run with the ball I'd be inclined to let the matter lie,
however uncomfortable that feels.

Watch out or you're going to be embroiled in a time- and money-wasting crusade.

[Renegade]

I've ordered things off of eBay before only to get pirated stuff. I couldn't use it. It was completely useless to me as I needed legitimate stuff. I don't bother even trying to buy stuff there anymore.

[Darwin]

I've lost count, but put me down for "+" on the grass 'em out to eBay position!

Just read your update, and am not sure what you should do... This is an outlandish suggestion (off-topic: wonder if that expression is Scottish and means an English expression?! Just occurred to me... OK, back on topic), but perhaps you could have a notary verify that the tapes are "dodgy" before your send them back. Ultimately, what you want is the transaction recorded and your money back, no?

PS Idea is out there for a number of obvious reasons, but to hit the highlights - you'd likely have to pay to have the letter notarized and how does one go about verifying that the tapes are fake, at least to the point of satifsying a notary...?

[Carol Haynes]

That's why I wondered if the police could confirm the bootleg status of the tapes. My problem then is that they might want to retain them for evidence or just to take them out of circulation.

[app103]

How about this...

If paypal don't seem to want to cooperate, call your local tv news station and let them turn it into a story and sic news reporters on them to ask paypal a lot of what could be embarrassing questions  about piracy, fraud and their part in protecting criminals.

I think with cameras in their face and possible media nightmare they might just change their tone and do what is right.

[Dormouse]

I thought that ebay/paypal were pretty notorious for 'turning a blind eye' to counterfeiting if they don't have someone like Adobe coming down heavy on them. And notorious for not actually producing good resolutions - too many examples of sellers and buyers being stung and ebay/paypal just reaching casual judgements to get rid of the case. Whatever they claim, it really is a case of buyer (and seller) beware.

[Fred Nerd]

Hit them hard, fair enough if they were selling pirate stuff (see thread on abandoned content) but if they
a) pretend it is authentic
b) don't even do a go job of it

That stinks, they deserve all they can get.

PS return obvious copies of the tapes, i.e. if you can, copy them to some old blank tapes and just write the names on them, that'll teach them, and you'll have the originals for evidence.
And if you can't copy VHS since it is outdated, put them on DVD.

[Carol Haynes]

Here is an update ...

I am so thoroughly pissed off that I thought I would post the correspondence so far from eBay so you can see how inept, illiterate and stupid they are:

My complaint on 15th May

I wish to report this order to you as I received bootleg VHS video copies from the seller. She is listing more copies of fake videos on eBay currently (including more copies of the rare tapes I ordered). I ordered in good faith as at the time she had a 100% positive feedback - however another user has since also reported counterfeit goods.

I feel very strongly that this sort of video piracy should be stopped on eBay and there are two issues I would like to raise before I consider returning the items:

1) If I send them back to the seller I no longer have any proof that they are counterfeit (and neither will eBay or PayPal) - it is simply my word against hers.

2) Why should I incur the costs of posting 3 VHS videos that are illegal copies in order to claim a refund under that PayPal guarantee scheme. Surely this policy is in place to resolve less 'cut and dry' issues?

Can you please advise me what to do now ?

I have already made a claim under the PayPal guarantee system (Case ID: XXXXXXX) but the seller is insisting I return the tapes to her at my own expense before she will issue a refund. PayPal have now sent me an email confirming the seller's wishes. However I don't see why I should PAY to send ILLEGAL goods back to the seller. Really I should be taking them to the nearest police station.

The response from PayPal doesn't really address any of the issues raised here.

eBay Response 16th May

Hello,

Thank you for your email regarding the Dear John VHS (item 290227322246)
you purchased from "yesiwon2". I understand you have already sent the
item back since you found out that it was a fake copy.

I'm sorry to hear this transaction is causing you much worries and
inconvenience. As an eBay member myself, I understand how you feel as
you tried to purchase this item in good faith and some problem came
along.

To assist you on this matter, I immediately checked our system and I see
that this listing ended on May 06, 2008, with a winning bid of £28.99
plus £3.20 postage fee.

I realise you would like to know what course of action you should take
now regarding this situation.

Please be informed that in situation such as this, we highly recommend
for both parties to communicate and try to come up with an agreement on
how the both of you could resolve the issue at hand. The best way to do
this is by directly calling "yesiwon2". We believe that contacting your
seller in addition to filing a dispute with PayPal, would be an
efficient way to hasten the resolution of this concern.

For your convenience, I've listed below the steps on how you could
request their phone number and email address:

1. Click "Advanced Search" in the top right-hand corner of the eBay
homepage.
2. Click "Find Contact Information".
3. Enter the item number for the relevant purchase. You can find the
item number in My eBay. Click "Search".

We'll then send you an automatic email with the seller's contact
details. Please be aware that we'll send the seller your contact details
at the same time. We feel it maintains trust and fairness on eBay if
members are made aware when other members request their contact
information.

Tip: If you have a Skype account, I would recommend that you use this as
a method in contacting your seller as Skype to Skype calls are free of
charges.

On the other hand, should you feel that you can't resolve this matter by
talking to "yesiwon2" or you were not able to resolve the issue with
your seller, the next step that you should take now is by reporting your
seller to PayPal so that they can take note of their account. Let me
remind you that you must do this within 45 days of payment.

If you are wondering why we are referring you to file a dispute via
PayPal's Resolution Centre, please be advised that since you have
processed your payment through PayPal, it will be easier for you to
recover your payment if you file a dispute with them.

As eBay works closely with PayPal to help buyers resolve problems
quickly and effectively, PayPal will investigate any complaint about a
sale where PayPal was used to send payment. To check how the item you
bought is covered under PayPal Buyer Protection, check the "Buy Safely"
section of the item page.

I want to help you in any way possible in filing a dispute with PayPal,
however, please know that as an eBay Customer Support representative, I
can't see your PayPal account.

For further assistance regarding this matter, you can log in to your
PayPal account and click the "Resolution Centre" subtab.

You can also contact PayPal, by clicking the "Contact Us" link at the
bottom of the PayPal homepage or by calling the PayPal Customer Service
Centre on:

08707 307 191

PayPal representatives are available from 6:00 a.m. until 10:00 p.m.
every day. National call rates apply.

Once you've already processed a dispute, you and the seller can
communicate via the Resolution Centre. In the event that weren't able to
resolve the situation within 20 days, you can escalate the dispute to a
PayPal claim.

Let me remind you that if 45 days have passed since your payment, you
won't be able to file a Buyer Protection claim with PayPal. However, we
encourage you to report this member to PayPal so they can make a note on
the seller's PayPal account.

Alternatively, if the item isn't covered by PayPal Buyer Protection, you
should file an "Item Significantly Not as Described" dispute in My eBay.
The eBay Dispute Console provides a structured and impartial way to
manage this type of problem with a seller. You must file a dispute
within 60 days of the end of the listing.

For more information on the dispute process, copy this link into a new
browser window:

http://pages.ebay.co.uk/help/tp/inr-snad-process.html

As for "yesiwon2", I assure you that I am equally concerned about
violations on the site and that your complaint has been noted. Buying
and selling in this community has always been meant to be pleasant
although it is unavoidable that bad situation like this hinders the
fulfillment of this experience.

We will investigate the seller involved in this transaction and will
take appropriate action following the completion of our investigation,
in accordance with the policies of eBay. However, please keep in mind
that due to eBay's privacy considerations that are in place to protect
us all, I am unable to provide you with specific details of regarding
the investigation or on the actions that were taken against another
members account.

I trust that this information has been useful to you. If you have any
further questions please do not hesitate to contact us again.

Kind regards,

Alexander Meadows
eBay Trust & Safety
____________________

Learn more about buying and selling safely on eBay. Visit the eBay
"Safety Centre" by clicking on the link at the bottom of the eBay
homepage.

My response on 16th May

I am sorry but my previous communication was obviously not read fully or carefully enough as the response I received did not answer the questions I asked and drew the wrong conclusion about the location of the bootleg items.

I HAVE NOT SENT the counterfeit tapes back to the seller (at least not yet) for two reasons:

1) Without the tapes I have no proof whatsoever that they are illegal bootleg copies - and neither do eBay or PayPal so any further investigation of fraud would be impossible because there would be no evidence. It would simply be my word against the seller.

2) The seller expects ME TO PAY FOR THE POSTAGE to return illegal fake items that she sent to me. I don't see why I should incur costs in trying to reclaim my money from fraud.

I have tried to communicate with the seller and she insists she will not refund my full payment until the tapes have been returned at my expense.

The seller having offered a refund on this basis PayPal, without any sort of investigation or evidence collection, suggests that I return the tapes AT MY OWN EXPENSE (and pay extra for a tracked service) to get a refund. There is no option in the resolution centre to continue a dialogue. For the two reasons stated above I AM NOT PREPARED TO PAY TO RETURN the tapes on this basis.

In fact given that the tapes are bootleg and I have been defrauded I am considering taking the tapes to the police to report the situation - in which case they will need the tapes as evidence.

Can you please give me considered advice as to how to progress my claim for a refund further WITHOUT having to send the tapes back to the seller first. Fake tapes should be taken out of circulation and not simply resold on eBay!

I am quite prepared to send the tapes to eBay or PayPal for investigation and then it is us to you to decide whether to return them to the seller or pass them to the police for possible prosecution but I am only prepared to do this on the basis that my postage costs will be met in addition to the claim for a full refund.

eBay response 17th May

Hello,

My name is Vaughn. Thank you for contacting eBay regarding your
account.

Please open an item not received dispute: My eBay, dispute console.

I'm sorry to hear you didn't receive your item or the item you received
was significantly different to how it was described in the listing.

There's a couple of steps you can take now:

1) Talk to the seller
2) Use the eBay Dispute Console (10-60 days from listing end date)

- Talk to the seller

At this stage, I recommend that you phone the seller and talk to them
about what's happened. These situations can often be resolved with a
friendly conversation. Here's how to request the seller's phone number:

1. Click "Advanced Search" at the top of the eBay homepage.
2. Click "Find Contact Information" on the left-hand side of the page.
3. Enter the item number for the relevant purchase. You can find the
item number in My eBay. Click "Search".

We'll then send you an automatic email with the seller's contact
details. Please be aware that we'll send the seller your contact details
at the same time. We feel it maintains trust and fairness on eBay if
members are made aware when other members request their contact
information.

- Use the eBay Dispute Console (10-60 days from listing end date)

If you can't resolve this by talking to the seller and your item doesn't
arrive, please file an "Item Not Received" or "Item Significantly Not as
Described" dispute in My eBay. You must file a dispute within 60 days of
the end of the listing.

The eBay Dispute Console provides a structured and impartial way to
manage this type of problem with a seller. For more information about
the dispute process, copy this link into a new browser window:

http://pages.ebay.co.uk/help/tp/inr-snad-process.html

What will eBay do about this seller?

Your complaint has been noted and, if appropriate, we will take action
against the seller to ensure eBay remains a fun, safe place to shop.
However, as it's important that eBay maintains member privacy, we can't
share details of the action we take.

I hope this information helps you to resolve this problem with the
seller. Please let us know if we can be of further assistance.

Thank you for taking the time to submit this information to eBay.

Regards,

Vaughn
eBay Customer Support

My response on 17th May

Please escalate this issue to someone who can actually read and is able to respond.

What is the point of writing to eBay to ask for help when you are totally incapable of reading and responding to the questions asked. My last email asked very specific questions and raised specific issues relating to criminal activity but you chose to ignore them and send me an irrelevant boilerplate standard answer.

This is my third email - this time I would like a response that doesn't consist of the usual automated drivel.

Please read my previous two emails and address the issues raised - I am not prepared to waste more of my life restating the questions.

If I don't get an adequate response from you within the next 2 working days (ie. by midnight Tuesday 20th May 2008) I will report the issue to my local trading standards office and also notify the police that eBay and PayPal both refuse to help deal with (or even investigate) illegal trading and video piracy issues.

[jgpaiva]

I like your response, Carol. It's adequate for the situation.
It's incredible, it looks like they answer with the email template that "fits" the situation best, and as they saw that the first one didn't fit, they sent the second one (and it looks like they don't have any more ).

I look forward to reading their answer to your last email.

[Carol Haynes]

Followed this up with an email to the seller:

I am afraid I have had no choice but to leave negative feedback. You cannot argue that I have not tried to resolve this situation amicably and followed the correct procedures. I have already informed PayPal and eBay that I refuse to pay for a trackable delivery to return the illegal bootleg tapes to you. Why should I spend money to return illegal tapes to you? If you want the tapes back I am quite prepared to send them to you at your own expense (send me a large padded envelope with sufficient postage) and once the full refund is made I will put the tapes in the post to you. If I don't get a full refund on this basis I am going to take the tapes to the police with your address details and also report the incident to Trading Standards. It's up to you now but I refuse to be ripped off in this way. This is in no way a threat - this is a simple statement of what I am and am not prepared to put up with.

and got the following reply by return:

the simple fact is buyers a resonpsible for return costs if you do not return them within the deadline given you will lose all your money not something i want to happen to you but it will, as paypal will decide in my favour

this week has put me off ebay for good and im closing my account when my cuirrent listings run out

which somewhat shows the respect for PayPal and eBay she has! Presumably she will close her account and open another to carry on as usual (given that she now has three VERY negative feedbacks).

What she doesn't know is that I just telephoned PayPal and they have assured me that telling me to return the items was an error on their part and that they never expect fraudulent items to be returned. I apparently have to supply some form of verification that they are counterfeit and that the items have been destroyed. Looks like the cop shop after all to get some form of written confirmation. If I am feeling generous I will take her address along with me

[cranioscopical]

What she doesn't know is that I just telephoned PayPal and they have assured me that telling me to return the items was an error on their part and that they never expect fraudulent items to be returned. I apparently have to supply some form of verification that they are counterfeit and that the items have been destroyed.

Thanks for updating us all on this. It's interesting to see your progress, and we may learn something from your adventuring.

Too bad the morons can't respond properly without your having to dig in and phone them!
Have you any record of your call, such as a confirming email? Somebody's name? Get the uncomfortable feeling that nobody will be aware of your call in any follow-up stages? I hope your local plod are more helpful than are the boys in blue around here. (P.C. 49 where are you now?)

The eBay performance is all too typical of irrelevant or pointless 'support' responses.
To be fair, I guess these knee-jerk reactions do sort things out for a great many issues, but they surely are tedious and time-wasting for those of us who need the first contact message to be parsed with intelligence.

As an example, recently I had a bad installer with a product from one major vendor.
(The installer interface appeared on screen but its items weren't populated properly -- hovering over any of the interface buttons showed "undefined" and clicking on the buttons did nothing at all).
No big deal to work around this but I contacted support in case the issue bit someone to whom it would matter.

The response from the vendor offered:

• a canned list of irrelevant solutions, such as "How to rebuild a Mirrored RAID array on an xxx Dual-drive storage system"
• the profound diagnosis that something was wrong with the installer.

[What's the smiley for a huge sigh of exasperation?]