Top 10 Most Depressing Quotes from Orwell's 1984

[zridling]

Top 10 most depressing quotes from Orwell's 1984:

[attach]

[tinjaw]

You sure those quotes aren't from King George's President Bush's campaign speeches?

[TucknDar]

sort of OT, but: If you like 1984, I can recommend "This Perfect Day" by Ira Levin (probably best known as the author of "Rosemary's Baby"). Excellent novel! I'm surprised (and a little relieved) that Hollywood hasn't picked it up yet... But the book is always better

[Cpilot]

You do of course realize that 1984 is a work of fiction, right?

[tinjaw]

You do of course realize that 1984 is a work of fiction, right?

Well, at one point it was, but now that the likes of Bush, Gonzales, Ashcroft have been in office, it doesn't take too much effort to understand that the GWOT is just another name for the war with Eurasia. No sir, 1984 is happening right here, right now.

[Cpilot]

You do of course realize that 1984 is a work of fiction, right?

Well, at one point it was, but now that the likes of Bush, Gonzales, Ashcroft have been in office, it doesn't take too much effort to understand that the GWOT is just another name for the war with Eurasia. No sir, 1984 is happening right here, right now.

I disagree.

[zridling]

Sadly, Orwell ratted out fellow authors in the UK as being spies after WWII, didn't he?

[Cpilot]

I really don't see how anyone capable of independent thought can read that novel and see it as anything more than an over embellished satire.
The idea that humans would be so in thrall to the state that they would tolerate the banishment of all vices to big brother for the greater good is laughable on the face of it.
We won't lose our freedoms to an oppressive police state, we'll lose them over cradle to grave dependency on nanny statism.
When the majority of the people of any country are dependent on the socialist teat for sustenance then the government has to confiscate more from the citizens who produce to shore up the welfare state.
That is what will kill freedom.

[tinjaw]

Cpilot,

I understand your criticism, but the book is not that simplistic. It has many different facets to it. My comments are about the surveillance of every individual 24 x 7 (a.k.a wire/email tapping). The never-ending all-consuming generic war (sometimes against Eurasia sometimes against Eastasia) that the government of Oceania perpetuates on the people (a.k.a. The Global War on Terror). The government telling people how they should live and think (a.k.a. the Religious Right that dominates the Executive Branch). I could continue.

[Cpilot]

The government telling people how they should live and think (a.k.a. the Religious Right that dominates the Executive Branch).

You honestly think it's the religious right who dictate how people should live?
Have you not heard of the tobacco settlement? How about snack restrictions in public schools?
The continuous attempts by left leaning trial lawyers to sue the fast food industry?
What about the current democratic candidates that want to dictate how I pay for my health insurance and the government monitoring the BMI of school children?
But that's all OK because it's for the "common good"....right?
I have yet to meet any individual who has been affected by "surveillance of every individual 24 x 7 (a.k.a wire/email tapping)", but plenty of people who have been or will be affected by the very things I've listed.

I too could go on and on.

[tinjaw]

I'm a libertarian so I don't like either side preaching.

But we have strayed OT too far, my friend. 

[Cpilot]

But we have strayed OT too far, my friend. 

I don't see how.
The title of the thread suggests that the fictional novel "1984" has some sort of relevance to reality.
I'm pointing out that it doesn't, except in the fevered mind of the ultra paranoid.
You made some absurd statements about the current administrations "evils" and in some way this is supposed to convince us that we are on the march to "big brother" while ignoring the policies of past administrations and their ineptitude and bad behaviour.
I call BS.
If you're really worried about freedom consider this.
Internment camps for Japanese-Americans during WWII was a policy instituted by Roosevelt, a democrat.
The Korean and Vietnam wars were democrat wars, involuntary forced conscription (the draft) was a democratic policy.
The draft was the greatest governmental seizure and deprivation of freedom of all time, and it and those wars were overseen by increasingly liberal democrats.
If you think "big brother" has you now, wait until after the elections and you have to report to an induction center.
Reading "1984" don't mean you know squat about "big brother", hearing someone call out your birth date in the high tens during a draft lottery does.

[f0dder]

Humm, the US intelligence Echelon / Carnivore system, the huge amount of spying surveillance cameras (and automated tracking / face recognition software) in the UK, and the general population growing fat & complacent, watching stupid gameshows... I do see a lot of parallels to 1984.

What about the current democratic candidates that want to dictate how I pay for my health insurance and the government monitoring the BMI of school children?

Both of those sound like good ideas to me... the .us health system is basically fail, compared to how it works in non-privatized countries. And fatness is becoming a serious health problem. Imho snacks and soft drinks have no place in schools, the sugar intake makes you dull & tired & bad at learning.

[Cpilot]

Both of those sound like good ideas to me... the .us health system is basically fail, compared to how it works in non-privatized countries. And fatness is becoming a serious health problem. Imho snacks and soft drinks have no place in schools, the sugar intake makes you dull & tired & bad at learning.

So it's all right for the government to tell you what to eat and how much to weigh?
How about where to spend your money and how much, who to give it to and so on?
Who the hell are you to determine how much someone is entitled to use legal substances?
What your saying is it's alright for the government to monitor you if you approve of it but bad if you don't.

And you got the unmitigated gall to whine about surveillance cameras and automated tracking / face recognition software?
what a hypocritical boob.

Where you at Europe?
The continent that gave us communism, Nazism and industrial scale genocide?
Like they know anything about self determination and responsibility.

Clean up your own totalitarian mess before you start criticizing anyone else.

[f0dder]

So it's all right for the government to tell you what to eat and how much to weigh?

No, but it's alright to have some rules & regulations. Like not allowing candy & sodas in schools (or at least not selling it in the school cafeteria), limiting the substances companies are allowed to add to your food, and not putting some restrictions on advertisements (like, disallowing blatant advertisements masquerading as children's shows).

Who the hell are you to determine how much someone is entitled to use legal substances?

It's more about limiting what the big evil corporations can do to the unweary consumers. Like, adding extra chemicals to tobacco with the sole purpose of making it more addictive.

What your saying is it's alright for the government to monitor you if you approve of it but bad if you don't.

No, that's not what I'm saying. But the government does need to enforce some limits and regulations to protect the population against corporate greed. I'm not advocating for socialism or any other form of totalitarian state, but an entirely free and unregulated market is not the solution either. Overuse of pesticides, hormones, antibiotics, unnecessary additives in food, monopolies, ... you name it.

As for the rest of your post: Denmark, part of scandinavia, Europe. And keep it civil.

[mouser]

hey guys and gals, remember that we try to avoid politics on this forum! 

[f0dder]

hey guys and gals, remember that we try to avoid politics on this forum! 

...for good reason, apparently. Perhaps the thread should just be locked & forgotten?

[kartal]

Freedom is an illusion

Here is how George Carlin sees it

http://youtube.com/watch?v=Qj2iVgx_VS4

[Cpilot]

hey guys and gals, remember that we try to avoid politics on this forum! 

Why?
It's alright if libtards vent, why can't I?
I'm pointing out the hypocrisy.
Earlier we had someone bemoaning the moral judgement of the "religious right", like in,"How dare they make a moral judgement!!!!".
Yet in Saudi Arabia they behead women who commit adultery and gay men, in Iran they hang them and kill homosexuals.
Stoning is common for moral crimes among Muslims.
Last I heard Christians ain't doing that, but they are more vilified and feared than sharia law and are paving the way for "big brother".
Give me a freaking break.
And the truth is that for over 2000 years Europeans have been responsible for or acquiescent to way more mass murder than we have in our roughly 250, Europe is where we got the word slave.
The perversion of the Catholic Church and Christianity during the inquisition was a European thing.
So IMO ain't no euroweenie can sit on his high horse and lecture me about freedom and human rights.
So save it for the other kool-aide drinkers fodder.

[mouser]

it's been generally agreed on this forum that we would avoid political arguments, no matter which side you are on.
i'd like to ask everyone to respect that.
political debate is healthy, but this forum is not the place for it.
if you see a thread in the future that you believe is going against this policy please feel free to message me.

tinjaw you arguably started us off with your first reply on this bad path, you should know better 

[tinjaw]

tinjaw you arguably started us off with your first reply on this bad path, you should know better 

Sorry. 

[f0dder]

cpilot: you have to look at where people are now, not just what happened in the past - keep in mind that the .us is a lot younger than the rest of the world, so you haven't had as much time to make mistakes as we have (I wonder how the picture look if amount of bad-stuff-done is correlated with nation's age, hmmm). You should also keep in mind the the .us is basically one country lead by one guy, europe is a bunch of pretty different autonomous states lead in different ways. Denmark != France != Germany != Sweden.

Also, to clarify, I was talking about UK (that's europe, in case you didn't know ) and not US wrt. the massive amount of camera surveillance, and wrt. population growing fat & complacent & gameshow-zombies, I was referring to the so-called civilized world as a whole, not exclusively the US.

There's a lot of problems in the world today, and a decent amount is caused directly or indirectly by the US. Some of it is a PUSH effect by your president, by some of the megacorps etc., some of it is a PULL effect because people imitate some of the not-so-good things like your fast food culture, Gangzta attitude, etc. I'm not saying the US is responsible for all trouble in the world, we have a lot of our own even in little Denmark, I'm just saying there is an influence, and it's pretty big.

There's no such thing as absolute freedom either, every choice has consequences. To ensure the largest amount of freedom for the largest amount of people, some limits have to be put on the individual freedom (and a lot of limits on corporate freedom ).

Peace out.

[Cpilot]

There's no such thing as absolute freedom either, every choice has consequences.

And who decides?
One persons moral stance, ie. I hate fat people, is another persons oppression.
So basically you're all in favor of "big brother", you just want to quibble about who oppresses who.

As long as it's opression you approve of it's OK, but if groups your opposed to take a moral stance then that's evil oppression.

There's a lot of problems in the world today, and a decent amount is caused directly or indirectly by the US. Some of it is a PUSH effect by your president, by some of the megacorps etc., some of it is a PULL effect because people imitate some of the not-so-good things like your fast food culture, Gangzta attitude, etc. I'm not saying the US is responsible for all trouble in the world, we have a lot of our own even in little Denmark, I'm just saying there is an influence, and it's pretty big.

So we twist arms to influence people with our culture?
You see, it's not our fault that the rest of the world doessn't understand "freedom". They are free to imitate us or not, setting limits on yourself is what being an adult is about.
The idea that it's our fault because others can't control themselves is childish.

[f0dder]

Who decides? Depends on the context, and the scale of things. Not allowing unhealthy crap and candy in schools isn't a government decision here yet (pity!), but there's a few schools where the school board / parent group have enforced it (that's democracy for you).

Things like pesticide control, hormone regulation, etc. has to be taken to government level, otherwise it can't be effectively controlled.

Denmark has a representative democracy, so in the end it's the politicians that take the big decisions. But those politicians have, you guessed it, been voted for. And we have a bunch of different political parties with more-or-less different agendas, so there's enough to choose from. (Of course all politicians are more or less the same in the end, but at least it's a lot less populist and corrupt in .dk than other countries).

But those are examples of medical, biological, environmental (etc.) decisions that made for the greater good of the entire population, at the expense of a few greedy megacorps who would rather have no rules in order to maximize their profits. And no, I'm not a bloody socialist, but I do believe there should be limits to how much the environment and consumers should be exploited by the megacorps.

Oh, and it's not about a silly moral stance on "I hate fat people", it's about limiting what chemicals corporations can put in our food, and what they can serve at our schools. You wouldn't want your kids drinking alcohol there, would you? Filling them with sugar makes them dull and slower at learning, after the sugar rush is off.

There's a difference between oppression and having some decent ground rules to live by. I could claim that "thou shalt not kill" is oppression and a severe limit of my personal freedom, but...

Sorry if this is drifting too far and becoming too political...

[nosh]

More than ten responses, I knew there had to be something fishy going on with this thread. 

That's a pretty interesting quote, Zaine. Some of my favorite quotes are from "American Psycho" (no, that's not meant as a snide/sarcastic comment  ) - Bret Easton Ellis is a genius... highly recommended!