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I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten

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Dormouse:
I also cannot use a system like trello as I am not in control of the data.
-sphere (May 11, 2020, 10:22 AM)
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I haven't checked, but I think you can set Trello up so that it only holds links to data you hold on your computer. That gives you control of your data  - but you would need to be careful about what you put on the cards.
I'd prefer it not to be web-based but I can live with it and it would hard to make the cross device multi team functions work in any other way.

Dormouse:
The aim of one's work is pretty important.  So yeah publication.... My guess is that his system was also bolstered by a general mastery of the subject and material.
-sphere (May 11, 2020, 01:48 PM)
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I'm sure.
For myself, if something is just an idea, I will write it in the form that makes most sense to me.
If I see it being published, i will try to form words suitable for that publication. Little extra work for me since I can't help think options for phrasing.

Dormouse:
Thank you everyone for your ideas, advice and discussions.  :Thmbsup:  :-*
It's been a long journey, but I think Ihave reached a destination that will work - and if it doesn't I should appreciatee the issues and alternatives. It feels as if we have delved in every nook and cranny and levered boulders to see what might be lurking beneath.

The system isn't one I ever imagined, and there are aspects that aren't ideal. I haven't eradicated dependence on databases, but all my own data sits free and accessible and dependence is reduced to tags and links in one program only. Workflow should be smooth and simple as against a rather Heath Robinson set of steps for a pure document approach, and it copes with fragments and snippets that aren't so easily coped with in pure documents. And its accessible on all devices and OSs - though that's through a web base.

The workflow is incredibly simple. I spend most of my time in a text program - any text program - writing, and spend most of my playing and working out time in Trello. Using specialist programs (mindmaps, spreadsheets etc) whenever I want.

If I'm reading and want to make notes or take quotes, I do that in a text program. I can switch around as often as I want. If I'm thinking of ideas or jobs in the garden, then they can all go in too. New line for every new think. Periodically, probably when I'm gettingfed up with doing that, I will copy them all and paste into Trello as separate new cards; that bit should take less than a minute.

The Trello housework is about linking and tagging and then I can move cards around and play and think, maybe, of new ideas to be written as above.

Pure writing again done in a text program - possibly the same one but maybe not. A Trello card will contain links to the document.
The system works as well for researching medication, planning holidays or evaluating anti-flood products as it does for writing and research.

I have the same continuous workflow whatever I'm trying to do.
All my data, including the content of the notes, is held in documents independent of any database.
The only things held only on databases are the tags and links and the structured relationships between cards. I'm hoping that Trello is big enough and stable enough to outlast my need for it. Plan B is to use CSV exports to switch to anouther appication or find another way of managing.

I will report back on progress and snags.

EDIT addition - just to point out that I will do initial tagging when I first write note, which should make recovery a bit easier if Trello fails.

Dormouse:
I did an evaluation of the extent to which this system meets my needs as expressed in the thread above and it feels positive. Very long post, so I've hidden in a spolier.

SpoilerI want to control what stuff is local and what is on the net. I want to control access. I want to be able to use my stuff on Linux, Android, iOS. Maybe even Mac. I want to be able to work on all my devices. I don't want my workflows constantly disrupted by software updates or bugs. -Dormouse (October 23, 2019, 02:21 PM)
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It just about does this.
All devices,  tick.
Control what is local - not so easy, but that's down to switching to Android; possible but more effort because the default is web.
Undisruptable workflows. Not under my control but likely to happen in practice - too many paying corporates depending on stable workflows.

I appreciate the advantage of database based programs, which is why I have stuck with them and tried and bought so many. And I don't discount using them. But I'm considering having them only for an active use rather than stuff in general.

With files, I can use virtually any program to create them, and to modify them; I can use them on all devices, access them from the internet and never have to worry about import or export. -Dormouse (October 23, 2019, 04:42 PM)
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Probably does tick this. Everything in files and documents. Trello is just an active working bit. But it is very core.

One other thought I had, triggered by some zettelkasten reading, was the possibility of being more productive if I was working with fewer programs and more simply focused on files and links. Working on files, it's easy to switch to a different program for a particular feature (and back again) without disruption. Trying to do that with database programs is definitely not like that. It leads to doing one set of things in one program and another in another etc. And there's permanent feature dissatisfaction.
-Dormouse (October 23, 2019, 05:24 PM)
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Does tick this one.

I remain not even slightly persuaded of the need to go full Markdown though.
-Dormouse (October 24, 2019, 04:50 AM)
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I feel as if I might have stumbled on to a very slippery slope and am gathering speed, with Markdown the next bump in the road, and no clear idea of an end zone.
-Dormouse (October 24, 2019, 03:57 PM)
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And so it came to pass.

my view of zettelkasten is that it is a workflow with a process that aids remembering and thinking. Index cards are incredibly flexible.

I recognise a number of key concepts:
Atomicity. One thing, free standing.
Linking. I appreciate the types of links: direct (card-to-card), positional. Also that cards can be removed and mixed and used with a group of other cards and then replaced exactly where they came from.-Dormouse (October 24, 2019, 05:03 PM)
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I think it does this too.

Each card is for a thought, not information - information is external in the sources.
-Dormouse (October 24, 2019, 06:37 PM)
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And definitely offers this.

I can see that his system meant that he collected his thoughts when he was reading in a format that made future thinking and use easier. When he was working things out, he played with his cards, making new ones when he had new thoughts. And when he came to write something up, he just went through the selected cards and wrote them out. Simples.
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Dormouse link=topic=48938.msg433261#msg433261 date=1572036464
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And this.

I want to keep folder structures as simple as possible.
-Dormouse (October 25, 2019, 06:02 PM)
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That's entirely possible.

Initial system plan (file based & text, not necessarily zettelkasten).

Two top level folders – General and Local. Identically named subfolders.
General to be available to other devices through Dropbox or equivalent. Local not.

Next level:
Thoughts (as in zettel, because I can see that it’s a good idea)
Sources  (including facts I record or material I devise myself)
Writing (any output using material in the first two). To include an In Progress folder (I’d intend to use this to temporarily copy files I’m using, and anything used to help organise my thoughts.
Temp (for new documents that may still need tagging/renaming/allocating).
-Dormouse (October 25, 2019, 06:39 PM)
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Redacted.
There's no need for folder organisation because all related functions are managed in Trello. Only exception is local stuff.

For me it's all about workflow. My understanding of the zettelkasten process produces high easy output that will allow me to keep my eye on the ball all the time (and should be effective whether it is really zettelkasten or not). That will mean quickly producing and saving new documents. I think everything else can be done later as a batch process, but, if not, it has to be something I can do without thought because otherwise the workflow gain has gone.-Dormouse (October 25, 2019, 07:22 PM)
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The Trello system is super good for workflow.

Luhmann went into an office and did his academic stuff - I do many things (and quite a lot of quick switching) and I can't see why the system would not work for anything that requires thinking. Creative writing, building a garage, organising holidays. One input system is so much easier than working out where everything should go.-Dormouse (October 27, 2019, 06:14 AM)
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Absolutely.  Trello system does this.

I think that some of the key zettel principles for this are:-
That you have a single integrated workflow, that you become expert in using
That notes have to sustain repeated iterative processing, potentially with new notes for new thoughts. If information/thoughts/notes aren't worth this degree of processing, then they don't deserve to be in the zettel.
The processing should produce growth in your understanding, but will also duplicate that understanding in the zettel
Which means that you can go away from that part of the zettel for ten years and still pick up from where you left off, long after you will have forgotten most of the detail of what you had learned-Dormouse (October 29, 2019, 02:12 PM)
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Trello system should work well for this.

I intend to put everything in - creative, practical, academic - and I cover many fields. My potential productivity gains come from having one system for everything.
-Dormouse (November 16, 2019, 07:10 AM)
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Trello should do this particularly well.

I've not decided what to do about snippets.

The defining feature of a snippet is that it is short. And individual snippets are disparate and unconnected.
It could be a brief description
An interesting word usage
An interesting fact
A nice phrase
Ideas
Overheard conversation
It could be something I've written myself or have read.
-Dormouse (December 11, 2019, 09:14 PM)
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I'm not happy with my webclip and snippets system.
-Dormouse (December 13, 2019, 04:57 PM)
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This is what ultimately broke the pure documents approach. Trello should handle this  well. Something much easier done in a database system.

One of the things that I have noticed in this process is that the user interface suiting me is much more important than features. There's a minimum feature set, but otherwise it is the user interface all the way.
-Dormouse (December 15, 2019, 10:03 AM)
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And the visual approach of Trello suits me well.

Trello, for example, will probably go even though it's a good personal fit.
-Dormouse (December 19, 2019, 09:34 AM)
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Strange how quickly things change.

Paradoxically I can envision the possibility of using Evernote more not less. It's quite good at merging notes for saving into documents.
-Dormouse (December 19, 2019, 09:34 AM)
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No longer need to merge notes.

In my mind, the zettelkasten works like having my own room in the Bodleian, with my current activities laid out on a large table in the middle, surrounded by small bookcases with the books needed for immediate references.
If I want more, or am moving on, then I can wander round the main library collecting books and other materials as I need. And if I need to do a detailed trawl into less familiar materials, I can ask the librarians to bring me stuff that might be relevant from the stacks.
-Dormouse (December 22, 2019, 10:53 AM)
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Should work well.  Tags will be manual, but I'd started tending in that direction anyway as it seemed less effortful. Many options for document search.

Two things struck me that could be enhancements to a zettelkasten program/process for some people for some usages.

Coloured or labelled links like spider diagrams or mind maps.
A limitation is that it imposes a consistency in the use of the concepts behind the links.
Doesn't suit my approach but would really help some.

Tiny notes attached to other notes.
I use stickies attached to documents, but the method is irrelevant.
These mostly arise from subconscious thinking, or something read in passing, rather than deliberate cogitation. Small thoughts, nothing complicated, so if I'm developing a character it might be 'Douglas Firbrae' or 'red hair'; I'm not going to actively think about it at the time - probably actively working on something else - but I don't want to lose the idea and I need it to be where I need it when I do actively work on the topic.
-Dormouse (December 29, 2019, 05:48 PM)
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I think even this should be possible with a variety options.

No system copes well with independent small thoughts and small notes. Database systems work best (The Journal is okay). I simply combine them to create documents to put into the archive. Time will tell whether this is effective. I think it will work where the combination is on a single topic, but thoughts aren’t always like that.
-Dormouse (January 04, 2020, 05:52 AM)
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And the Trello system should cope fine.

— 16:57 —
 

tomos:
I did an evaluation of the extent to which this system meets my needs as expressed in the thread above and it feels positive. Very long post, so I've hidden in a spolier.
-Dormouse (May 11, 2020, 04:12 PM)
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I haven't read your long-post spoiler yet, but just wanted to say this has been a very entertaining thread. And if you ever publish something for the general public Dormouse, let us know, because what you've written here has always been a pleasure to read.
Thanks!

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