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I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten
Dormouse:
Just a look at a few quotes where Rizvi explains his move from zettelkasten to PARA. I think it contains a number of common misconceptions of the zettelkasten system.
I love reading. But retaining what I read tends to be a challenge. I usually walk away from a book feeling good but with only a faint idea of what was in there.
Herein is I think the core of his problem. Zettelkasten is specifically not about retaining the content of what has been read - it's about retaining thoughts about the content.
Its core idea is to create atomic notes, where each note is about exactly one topic (not more than a few paragraphs tops)
By definition, something that takes two paragraphs is more than one thought. Two paragraphs will also contain associations that make the note cumbersome to use.
If you take a lot of notes, the stream of incoming notes can quickly leave you overwhelmed.
The idea was being selective, both in what was read and the notes taken. They had to be worthwhile and had to be separate. There shouldn't be an overwhelming stream.
The key here is that the linking process groups relevant notes together.
I suspect linking to have been less important than many advocates claim. Linking was hard to do with his technology, so he went to great effort to describe his method. He may have believed that the process of having a thought was obvious and didn't need description. Linking was essential, but I don't think it was the key. That was in the process of recording the first thought and then refining it.
And then some comments on PARA
By creating purpose-based folders and putting all notes related to that purpose inside it, we’ve created a new way to group relevant notes together.
This is just the old tagging/folder dichotomy.
How do you reference old notes? When you start working on a new project (like a writing assignment) you search the relevant folders and pull out notes that seem relevant to your task.
Effectively doing the work from scratch when the original thought is no longer in your mind.
His justification is that it avoids the useless work of making notes which are never used. Avoiding Luhmann's recommendation not to do useless reading in the first place.
He also never picked up on his advice to only work on what interests you at the time, and to move on if the interest drops.
Dormouse:
And here's the start to Forte's description of his PARA system
A Project is “a series of tasks linked to a goal, with a deadline.”
An Area of responsibility is “a sphere of activity with a standard to be maintained over time.”
A Resource is “a topic or theme of ongoing interest.”
The last A is for Archive
I did read more of the first article, but I certainly wasn't going to pay to read the second. In fact, I'd have to be paid to read it and a substantial amount at that.
Dormouse:
I was looking around at websites and reviews to see if I could find helpful ideas. I started by looking at writers' sites. That was a depressing experience. Simple storyboards and a host of self-inflicted hamster wheels. Had a quick look at researchers, but found nothing there either. Nor in corporate business-type sites but that wasn't a surprise because I'd expect them to be very focused on project management. So it will take some time to really sort myself out.
Then thought I'd better check that it ticks the needs I'd identified during thread - especially since it was a rather sudden change of direction.
sphere:
So I have read Rizvi's post and I am familiar with PARA... I had some comments- Which might be misplaced because I have not followed this thread entirely. This person strikes me as someone who is also on a search for the perfect way to organize their notes and learn. I can respect that.
Just a look at a few quotes where Rizvi explains his move from zettelkasten to PARA. I think it contains a number of common misconceptions of the zettelkasten system.
I love reading. But retaining what I read tends to be a challenge. I usually walk away from a book feeling good but with only a faint idea of what was in there.
Herein is I think the core of his problem. Zettelkasten is specifically not about retaining the content of what has been read - it's about retaining thoughts about the content. -Dormouse (May 10, 2020, 03:34 PM)
--- End quote ---
As I mentioned, I used something similar to zettlkasten. It was all about the process. In it you would initially accumulate alot of cards- with different types of information (ie historical dates, themes, epiphanies, ideas, connections, future readings etc etc). During this part of the process you might have an aim for your work- which would determine your approach to the cards. However this was just the first part. It was in the Sorting, adding additional notes, refining the notes, rewriting the notes or otherwise interacting with the notes that you could develop your ideas and more. It was very time consuming, and it was sometimes hard to know how many note cards were too many note cards:) In the end it would be very dynamic. A note with a historical fact was destined to become a flash card simply by writing a question on the back of the note. Other notes could be arranged based on the themes to make up sections of a paper.
There is an older program called Writers's Blocks https://www.writersblocks.com/wb5trialrequest.htm
It allows you to play around with trello like cards of information with the aim of arranging them into sections of a paper. In my opinion, it is too singular. I wish there was a capture the information in some sort of system and play with the information- interact and develop it. This aim of writer's block dominates the type of play one is capable of with the note cards. I want more.
Another program that comes to mind is AZZcardfile https://www.azzcardfile.com/ A number of years ago I was pretty happy to see there was work on an android application. There were a number of ways to export the cards and I thought about exporting and then importing to something like Writer's blocks.
My issue is that I really want to be able to include video and audio in my system. I want multi-media. I do not want to link to a youtube video and that is what most systems do. Nearly All of my links from the earlier years of the internet are broken which is very sad. I also cannot use a system like trello as I am not in control of the data. I cannot have my data in the cloud. There are self hosted trello alternatives- through nextcloud etc that I have not explored.
Its core idea is to create atomic notes, where each note is about exactly one topic (not more than a few paragraphs tops)
By definition, something that takes two paragraphs is more than one thought. Two paragraphs will also contain associations that make the note cumbersome to use.
-Dormouse (May 10, 2020, 03:34 PM)
--- End quote ---
I sometimes want to capture concepts in my notes. Which can be as many as 4 paragraphs to explain:)
If you take a lot of notes, the stream of incoming notes can quickly leave you overwhelmed.
The idea was being selective, both in what was read and the notes taken. They had to be worthwhile and had to be separate. There shouldn't be an overwhelming stream.
-Dormouse (May 10, 2020, 03:34 PM)
--- End quote ---
This is difficult. I find the easiest way to limit what I am taking notes on is by focusing on what I am aiming to produce. However, this often means I need to go back and revisit a resource- if I later on I need to produce something different.
sphere:
...I started by looking at writers' sites. That was a depressing experience. Simple storyboards and a host of self-inflicted hamster wheels. ....
-Dormouse (May 11, 2020, 06:15 AM)
--- End quote ---
"Self inflicted hamster wheels"
I cannot agree with this strong enough- though I have not looked deeply. I am curious if you looked at liquid Story Binder?
It seems like it might have the best trello card system with their story boards... You can see below... not sure about the hamster wheels...
https://www.blackobelisksoftware.com/XE/Screenshot6.jpg
I have not had a chance to check out Wavemaker any more deeply.
If zotero or civita (spelling) had a way to export notes and highlighted text to some sort of note card, that would be awesome. What is nice about these applications is they can pull metadata from sources. The aim of these utilities are to site sources when writing and not (to my knowledge) processing and refining the information you collect.
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