Other Software > Developer's Corner
Ethics in Technology
IainB:
In "fixing" the software/firmware of VW vehicle pollution control systems so that the vehicles could be made to fraudulently pass the emissions tests, did the software developers responsible agree to do something unethical/dishonest?
I'm not the one to judge, but I can't see that they have necessarily done something unethical/immoral. I think that is yet to be proven.
For example, if what Tuxman links to below is true (and it seems to be), and if this is true - 95% of European diesels tested flunk emissions standards - (and it seems to be) - then arguably there has been no wrongoing in the VW case in the first place.
I love how the world discusses Volkswagen's "ethics" while ignoring that everyone cheated before ... :D
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-Tuxman (October 01, 2015, 10:14 AM)
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The VW fraud would probably never have eventuated if the problem - the setting of artificial "targets" for diesel engine testing - had not been created in error in the first place by a bloated bureaucracy with apparently little or no understanding of processes in statistical control (Shewhart, Deming).
The fact that the targets were also set at evidently infeasible levels (QED) would have merely served to compound the problem.
This looks very much like a textbook example of the sort of thing that W.E.Deming was on about when he published his 14-point philosophy, where point 11 was:
11. [Eliminate targets with no basis in statistical veracity]
a) Eliminate work standards (quotas) on the factory floor.
Substitute leadership.
b) Eliminate management by objective. Eliminate management by
numbers, numerical goals. Substitute leadership.
(from Chapter 2 of "Out of the Crisis", by W. Edwards Deming).
However, from experience, I predict that, in common with a great many people, approx. 80% (Pareto Principle) of the people who might read this comment will fail to accept or understand the truth of point 11, primarily because it runs contrary to conventional wisdom, and they will be unlikely to have seen the proof of it in Deming's "Red Beads" teaching experiment.
This could seem somewhat ironic, given that amongst his many awards and accolades, Prof. Deming was elected in 1983 to the National Academy of Engineering, and in 1986 to the Science and Technology Hall of Fame in Dayton and he was inducted into the Automotive Hall of Fame in 1991.
Another case of "Pearls before swine" perhaps.
tomos:
New elements to the VW story shed interesting light (ideas.4brad.com
Makes some interesting points:
more on the initial topic i.e. the POV of the employee: the pressure from the top to succeed (or be fired) -- what do you do in this situation, what does a group (e.g. of engineers) do in this situation?
Which initially seems to be blaming the engineers as the source of the idea, but says this could have been at any level.
I have heard the idea on German radio that in order to pass the tests IRL, performance would have suffered unacceptable levels -- this apparently not the case:
To add to the shocks, Consumer Reports tested the car in low-emissions cheat mode and the differences were less than you would expect.
# Acceleration dropped 0.5 seconds (0-60) on older cars and not much on the latest models.
# Fuel economy dropped from 53 to 50mpg on the 2015, and from 50 to 46mpg on the 2011 models.
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^ VW may have considered these levels unacceptable due to competition or whatever, but they dont come across as a company/product struggling because of the emissions regulations.
Apparently the testing system in Europe is easier to fool:
European emissions standards are much more lax, and their official test is very different from real world driving. So cars which pass the Euro test get out on the roads and emit 10x or more NOx pollutants than they do on the test. This is a result not of cheating, but of “designing to the benchmark” — another common problem in the computer industry. They make cars which do decently in the very non-real-world euro-test, and don’t care very much what they do in real driving.
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So,
they wanted to sell the same car in the US where tests more stringent, so they created a 'workaround'.
I dont get the impression here that the low emissions regulations were the big problem -- especially if you take into account the relatively small difference in performance between the car in low-emissions mode and in 'normal' mode.
Stoic Joker:
I have heard the idea on German radio that in order to pass the tests IRL, performance would have suffered unacceptable levels -- this apparently not the case:
To add to the shocks, Consumer Reports tested the car in low-emissions cheat mode and the differences were less than you would expect.
# Acceleration dropped 0.5 seconds (0-60) on older cars and not much on the latest models.
# Fuel economy dropped from 53 to 50mpg on the 2015, and from 50 to 46mpg on the 2011 models.
--- End quote ---
^ VW may have considered these levels unacceptable due to competition or whatever, but they dont come across as a company/product struggling because of the emissions regulations.-tomos (October 13, 2015, 08:09 AM)
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While it is interesting to see the performance/economy impact of the "cheat". The numbers are almost meaningless without the corresponding emissions numbers for both street and cheat modes.
tomos:
I have heard the idea on German radio that in order to pass the tests IRL, performance would have suffered unacceptable levels -- this apparently not the case:
To add to the shocks, Consumer Reports tested the car in low-emissions cheat mode and the differences were less than you would expect.
# Acceleration dropped 0.5 seconds (0-60) on older cars and not much on the latest models.
# Fuel economy dropped from 53 to 50mpg on the 2015, and from 50 to 46mpg on the 2011 models.
--- End quote ---
^ VW may have considered these levels unacceptable due to competition or whatever, but they dont come across as a company/product struggling because of the emissions regulations.-tomos (October 13, 2015, 08:09 AM)
--- End quote ---
While it is interesting to see the performance/economy impact of the "cheat". The numbers are almost meaningless without the corresponding emissions numbers for both street and cheat modes.
-Stoic Joker (October 13, 2015, 11:24 AM)
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They invalidate the idea that the regulations were too stringent to be workable.
Whether the regulations make sense or not is another issue. There are the elements Ren point out: mpg vs. emissions, etc. I guess that does have some influence of the ethics of the situation, but is really a different topic I think.
The problem here is that VW lied -- to everyone -- and they got caught. They had other options (that they may or may not have tried -- I dont know). It is an unfortunate situation -- and I really hope they dont get screwed, or destroyed, for a (possible) minor difference in emissions. Using the regulations as an excuse though, is coming at this issue backwards. Again, that doesnt make the regulations correct or reasonable. I dont know enough about them myself to comment.
Stoic Joker:
The problem here is that VW lied -- to everyone -- and they got caught. They had other options (that they may or may not have tried -- I dont know).-tomos (October 13, 2015, 11:50 AM)
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Right, but to me it's a matter of scope ... how big was the lie? Did the waiter have his thumb in my soup - shit happens - or did he shit in the bowl first.
It kinda really matters...especially when they keep hiding/skipping/omitting that - obviously very central - part of the story. Hay if they fudging at trace levels to hit a target (which the performance numbers imply to me) then I say who gives a shit - Let'em be. But if they're fudging whole numbers (also not improbable), then perhaps a few heads on sticks might be in order.
You can't properly discuss a fitting punishment for a crime that hasn't been defined clearly.
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