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Automakers Want to Outlaw Gearheads From Working on Their Own Cars
Stoic Joker:
In other words, they're using the DMCA in exactly the way it was intended.-Vurbal (April 22, 2015, 11:54 AM)
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...As a blunt object with which the corporations could beat the common man into subjugation?
Edvard:
Aha, this is about altering the control computer's software, not actual car repair. You almost had me there... :-[
AFAICT, what they want to stop is folks selling aftermarket performance chips by saying that making them is illegal copying in the same way that making and selling your remix of a popular song without getting permission from the rightsholder is illegal (in their eyes, anyway).
I have a hard time seeing how this can fit into copyright. You're not actually making a copy of the software/data, you're just modifying pieces of it in place.
-CWuestefeld (April 22, 2015, 12:27 PM)
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Well, if the original programming is present on the mod chip, which you bought from a mod chip vendor, then yes, it is a copy. Ripping and modding your own ROM, not so much. As close to the fringe that their argument is regarding copyright, I don't see a problem with things like voiding all warranties if the owner used a mod chip, and BTW good luck passing emissions testing.
I'm wondering if we'll start seeing replacement GPL'd software for cars anytime soon. Certainly it can't be illegal to delete their precious software after all...
-Renegade (April 22, 2015, 08:35 AM)
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Well, the man did say "... copying the software is at issue after all, not wholly replacing it, ...". :P
I dunno, the control software of a car is a VERY exacting piece of kit which is the entire reason we have cars that can get 20+ miles to the gallon and still have decent horsepower. It takes very brave (or stupid) people to think is a good idea to mess with that, and I'm not one of them. I'd never support making modding illegal, but I don't blame the manufacturers getting upset about it.
Is it me, or is the whole "Autonomous Car" thing seem like nothing more than a "personal bus"? If I were a gearhead, I'd be bored too...
Stoic Joker:
Aha, this is about altering the control computer's software, not actual car repair. You almost had me there... :-[
-Edvard (April 23, 2015, 01:20 AM)
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The two are not mutually exclusive...as sometimes the repair is to alter the control computer's software. It's bad enough that the bar is already set at prohibitively expensive gadgetry just to do a minor engine tweak like dropping the idle so one's Harley goes back to idling like a Harley is supposed to instead of buzzing like some spastic appliance (Dealer Only Item(s) cost ~$600 for just that!).
No the corporate masters need to lose this one, and the messier the better. Because killing off an entire aspect of our culture in the name of IP law is simple unacceptable.
Well, the man did say "... copying the software is at issue after all, not wholly replacing it, ...".-Edvard (April 23, 2015, 01:20 AM)
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A clever sentiment sure. But it reality which scenario is more likely to have an adverse impact on the environment?
1. People get an existing know good system and tweak it to their specific needs/liking.
2. People have to scratch build something totally in the hops of building a workable (close enough) baseline they can then work from.
MilesAhead:
Go back to points plugs condenser. No solid state, no software/firmware under the hood. No copyright. No problems. Cars need not be programmed. Just tuned every few years. :)
Renegade:
I know quite a few people here have worked on large software projects, but I'm curious -- Has anyone worked on projects with "kill dates" built into the project? I don't mean something like a campaign that runs for X days/weeks/months, but real kill dates where even while the project is being developed, the end of life is already known -- without that being communicated to users until a set date.
I suspect that there's likely some nastiness built into the software, and that if it were decompiled, organised, and understood, there would be some outcry.
I'll skip the conspiracy facts. ;)
Oh, heck. Let's roll with one. :P
Published in Wired:
http://www.wired.com/2015/02/new-high-tech-farm-equipment-nightmare-farmers/
From here:
http://ifixit.org/blog/7007/farm-equipment/
And a snippet from there:
Aside from using it, there’s not much you can do with modern ag equipment. When it breaks or needs maintenance, farmers are dependent on dealers and manufacturer technicians—a hard pill to swallow for farmers, who have been maintaining their own equipment since the plow."
"[DIY repair] is cheaper than calling out the technician. But that information is just not out there," Dave explained to me.
The cost and hassle of repairing modern tractors has soured a lot of farmers on computerized systems altogether. In a September issue of Farm Journal, farm auction expert Greg Peterson noted that demand for newer tractors was falling. Tellingly, the price of and demand for older tractors (without all the digital bells and whistles) has picked up. “As for the simplicity, you’ve all heard the chatter,” Machinery Pete wrote. “There’s an increasing number of farmers placing greater value on acquiring older simpler machines that don’t require a computer to fix.”
The problem is that farmers are essentially driving around a giant black box outfitted with harvesting blades. Only manufacturers have the keys to those boxes. Different connectors are needed from brand to brand, sometimes even from model to model—just to talk to the tECU. Modifications and troubleshooting require diagnostic software that farmers can’t have. Even if a farmer managed to get the right software, calibrations to the tECU sometimes require a factory password. No password, no changes—not without the permission of the manufacturer.
John Deere, in particular, has been incredibly effective at limiting access to its diagnostic software. Which is why I wouldn’t have been able to tweak the programming on Dave’s tractor, even if I had been able to hack together the right interface. John Deere doesn’t want me to. The dealer-repair game is just too lucrative for manufacturers to cede any control back to farmers.
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Does anyone think consumer vehicles are much different?
Oh, what's that sound? The squirting of milk into a steel bucket? I think I hear some cackling as well...
I dunno, the control software of a car is a VERY exacting piece of kit which is the entire reason we have cars that can get 20+ miles to the gallon and still have decent horsepower. It takes very brave (or stupid) people to think is a good idea to mess with that, and I'm not one of them. I'd never support making modding illegal, but I don't blame the manufacturers getting upset about it.
-Edvard (April 23, 2015, 01:20 AM)
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Unfortunately, "improved fuel efficiency" in modern cars is a near total fabrication. Or at least in the US. Regulatory authorities actively work against the industry to create less fuel efficient cars, and then set idiotic emissions standards that are ineffective and that only create more emissions. You can't make this stuff up.
Check out Eric Peters for all kinds of crazy information on that. It's simply unbelievable, yet he has all the facts to back it up. Just nutty. You might have seen him on news programs - he covers the automotive industry (probably in too much depth for some people).
FAIR WARNING: If anyone actually checks out Eric Peters commentary on what happens in the industry, be prepared to start screaming, cursing, and breaking things. It will seriously piss you off, as in homicidal rage I just came to because I nearly drown in a pool of blood surrounded by uncountable dismembered bodies pissed off. And, for everyone else, he'll just piss you off period. :P
A fun exercise is to check identical models of cars in Europe and the US for mileage. It's silly. ::wallbash::
But, back to chips...
There are a few people out there creating mods and add-ons for vehicle computer systems. Many are actually outside of the system, but modify and control communications (and more) and then relay that to other systems in the vehicle to create improvements. The external devices are so far removed from any ability of the manufacturers to retaliate, that we won't see them retaliate for at least a couple more years. :P 8) Unless they want to go full retard MAFIAA. 8)
This issue is going to spill into a lot more areas and very quickly.
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