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Thoughts on "Piracy".
4wd:
The products are available for $0.00 at EZTV, The Pirate Bay, and a plethora of other places. -Renegade (November 26, 2014, 10:48 PM)
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Including BD, DVD, VHS media for sale in other countries even if they are not for sale in Australia.
So, if somebody downloads a movie from The Pirate Bay, while at home, it's piracy, but if they go on vacation to Aruba and download the same movie, then it's not piracy?
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No, but if they buy the legally available DVD while in Aruba and then take it home, that's not piracy. If they buy it online while in Australia, that's not piracy either.
Sure it may be region encoded but since region-free DVD players aren't illegal in Australia that's not a problem.
At any point in my post, (apart from the Steam example), did I mention purely downloadable content?
You mentioned Netflix, probably almost everything on there is available in non-downloadable form from somewhere - there ain't nothing stopping you from buying in that form.
And while I think of it, if I'm in a country where it's legally available for download online, buy it and download it - you're saying I should hand it in when I get to the airport?
Are you going to leave anything behind in Australia, that you have legally bought, that is regionally restricted to Australia when you leave the country?
I don't think so.
I'll go out on a really thin limb here:
Piracy is theft, pretty simple and pretty much illegal everywhere - your non-copyright countries included. Whether or not it's enforced is another matter.
However, if I can legally acquire anything, anywhere on this planet that's not illegal to own/use within Australian law then, broadly speaking, as far as Australian law is concerned I can own and use it.
EDIT: Actually I think I just painted myself into a corner there ... I'm going to shutup now :-[
e.g. If I eat a piece of toast, can someone undo my eating of that toast with a piece of paper?
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If I soak it in Ipecac I bet I could :)
Renegade:
EDIT: Actually I think I just painted myself into a corner there ... I'm going to shutup now :-[
-4wd (November 26, 2014, 11:20 PM)
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Hahahaha~! ;D 8)
Actually, yeah... you did. But that's a good thing. :)
You're going to run into problems whenever you start talking about laws and governments and jurisdictions or any of that.
No, but if they buy the legally available DVD while in Aruba and then take it home, that's not piracy.
-4wd (November 26, 2014, 11:20 PM)
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But you can legally buy DVDs for which no royalty has been paid.
So, you're divorcing the payment of royalties there from whether or not it's piracy.
Do I have you summed up right here?
"Legally purchased = not pirated"
If they buy it online while in Australia, that's not piracy either.-4wd (November 26, 2014, 11:20 PM)
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Remember the Russian site that wasn't paying royalties but was selling music? People bought there.
You seem to be trying to tie payment to whether or not something is piracy. "Paid = not pirated?"
And while I think of it, if I'm in a country where it's legally available for download online, buy it and download it - you're saying I should hand it in when I get to the airport?
-4wd (November 26, 2014, 11:20 PM)
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Side Note: I nearly ended myself up in prison when I first landed in Australia because I had some simple, innocuous items in my checked baggage that I'd entirely forgotten about.
Are you going to leave anything behind in Australia, that you have legally bought, that is regionally restricted to Australia when you leave the country?
I don't think so.
-4wd (November 26, 2014, 11:20 PM)
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You're right. I wouldn't and I won't. But I can't think of anything that I have that is restricted to Australia... Still... I wouldn't care if it was.
I'll go out on a really thin limb here:
Piracy is theft, pretty simple and pretty much illegal everywhere - your non-copyright countries included. Whether or not it's enforced is another matter.
-4wd (November 26, 2014, 11:20 PM)
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YES!!! THANK YOU!!!
That's what I wanted to tease out of the conversation here.
The consequence of rejecting that (the opposite of what you said) is that, just for example:
A) It's not ok to kill homosexuals in Australian, but "those faggots" in Yemen, Iran, Iraq, Mauritania, Nigeria, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Somalia, and Sudan deserve to die.
B) By some kind of magic, aboriginals in Australia became "human" instead of "flora and fauna" in 1967 with the stroke of a pen.
C) Certain plants and flowers are magically "ok" in Colorado, but will land you in prison in California.
The insanity is obvious.
The principle is that whether or not something is right/wrong/criminal is not dependent on any law or any government or any jursidiction.
Laws *can* reflect what is right or wrong, but they cannot dictate what is right or wrong.
However, if I can legally acquire anything, anywhere on this planet that's not illegal to own/use within Australian law then, broadly speaking, as far as Australian law is concerned I can own and use it.
-4wd (November 26, 2014, 11:20 PM)
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And that's what I want to eliminate - any kind of "legal" argument as to whether or not copying is illegal. Legal arguments are just silly, which I think I've shown above.
4wd:
Do I have you summed up right here?
"Legally purchased = not pirated"-Renegade (November 27, 2014, 04:20 AM)
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No, I meant legally purchased as in all the middle men get their extortion while the artist gets a pittance.
Remember the Russian site that wasn't paying royalties but was selling music? People bought there.
You seem to be trying to tie payment to whether or not something is piracy. "Paid = not pirated?"
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No, I don't tie payment to legal. Paying for heroine doesn't make it legal does it?
Side Note: I nearly ended myself up in prison when I first landed in Australia because I had some simple, innocuous items in my checked baggage that I'd entirely forgotten about.
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I'm sure it was nothing personal.
And that's what I want to eliminate - any kind of "legal" argument as to whether or not copying is illegal. Legal arguments are just silly, which I think I've shown above.
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Yes, but your definition of legal is twisted, mine encompasses the whole transaction not just the handing over of money.
And I'm still sure I could get a trebuchet to throw a flaming rock 30km ... so duck :P
eleman:
Piracy is theft, pretty simple and pretty much illegal everywhere - your non-copyright countries included.
-4wd (November 26, 2014, 11:20 PM)
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Oh no not again the implicit loading.
Piracy = copyright infringement <> theft.
As in piracy <> murder, or piracy <> battery, or piracy <> oral sex.
Different terms have different meanings for a reason. If we are to use just one regardless of differences, there's no need for so many. Think about it, why are there different words for crime, felony, misdemeanor etc.? Because they refer to somewhat similar albeit essentially different concepts.
Theft is a case where the thief deprives the victim, of something.
Copyright infringement does not necessarily lead to deprivation.
Renegade:
Let's keep the fun rolling~!(TM) ;D
Do I have you summed up right here?
"Legally purchased = not pirated"-Renegade (November 27, 2014, 04:20 AM)
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No, I meant legally purchased as in all the middle men get their extortion while the artist gets a pittance.
-4wd (November 27, 2014, 04:50 AM)
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You're trying to have your cake and eat it too.
If it's legal to purchase a copy in Aruba (or any of the others), then it's legal. We don't get to make up new laws for some country out of the blue -- that the job of our regional overlords! :D 8)
You're trying to impose legislation from another jurisdiction on that legal transaction, and then say it isn't legal.
This was the point of me pointing out the illegality of homosexuality in a few different countries.
By applying the exact same logic you used above, we can get to the conclusion that homosexuality is also illegal in Australia.
The example of the first peoples of Australia not being human until 1967 was to illustrate the temporal nature, as opposed to the geographical nature above.
My point here is to show that either you accept the geographical nature of law being right/wrong or you don't.
I'm also trying to point out the absurdity of some action X being ok here, but bad there.
I'm firmly in the camp of rejecting that right/wrong has any geographical boundaries, etc. etc.
If you accept that right/wrong isn't bound to geographical areas, then you cannot accept that X is both right and wrong depending on where you are standing/sitting.
Now, if someone does accept that X is both right and wrong depending on where you are standing/sitting, then it necessarily follows that piracy/copying can be done in a "right" way, e.g. through proxies, etc.
Remember the Russian site that wasn't paying royalties but was selling music? People bought there.
You seem to be trying to tie payment to whether or not something is piracy. "Paid = not pirated?"
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No, I don't tie payment to legal. Paying for heroine doesn't make it legal does it?
-4wd (November 27, 2014, 04:50 AM)
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I wouldn't tie payment to it either. It's a silly idea. Just clarifying there.
As for heroine, again, the legality of it has nothing to do with the right/wrong of it. But, let's skip that. I made that point in "C" above. (Heroine is just processed flowers, and not significantly different than marijuana in that aspect.) The point is C was the same as A - right/wrong/legal/illegal with respect to geography.
And that's what I want to eliminate - any kind of "legal" argument as to whether or not copying is illegal. Legal arguments are just silly, which I think I've shown above.
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Yes, but your definition of legal is twisted, mine encompasses the whole transaction not just the handing over of money.
-4wd (November 27, 2014, 04:50 AM)
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Here's where we really do agree:
1) Whether it is paid for or not doesn't matter.
So, that's progress.
I've tried to divorce the right/wrong of the matter from the legal/illegal of the matter by pointing out absurdities.
I'm not sure if you're on board there. You seem to want to use the arbitrary legal definitions that we live under. But the entire discussion of country ABC is rather boring as many DCers are from all over the world. Imposing a legal system on whether or not piracy/copying is right/wrong doesn't seem like a productive avenue to go down.
Yes, but your definition of legal is twisted, mine encompasses the whole transaction not just the handing over of money.
-4wd (November 27, 2014, 04:50 AM)
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And yes - I did twist what "legal" is because there is no clear sense of what it is. Gay in Nigeria? Die. Die because you're gay in San Francisco? Crime. Aboriginal in Australia in 1950? Not human. Aboriginal in 2014? Human.
Whether or not something is legal is completely uninteresting. The interesting thing is whether something is right/wrong or ethical/unethical or moral/immoral/amoral or something along those lines. That's the direction I'm trying to steer the conversation in.
My above banter is just to try to lay the "legal" aspect to rest and be done with it as not useful.
And I'm still sure I could get a trebuchet to throw a flaming rock 30km ... so duck :P
-4wd (November 27, 2014, 04:50 AM)
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Running for cover the moment I click POST! ;D
Theft is a case where the thief deprives the victim, of something.
Copyright infringement does not necessarily lead to deprivation.
-eleman (November 27, 2014, 05:27 AM)
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Great points! :Thmbsup:
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