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Frustrated Mom Creates ‘Ignore No More’ App To Get Teen Kids To Return Calls
MilesAhead:
it's important to teach American children to accept electronic surveillance and coercion as early as possible. this misguided app will certainly help do that. :-(
-Gwen7 (August 18, 2014, 08:46 AM)
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I can appreciate the irony. I was always very touchy about privacy issues, GPS in the cell phone etc..
Now I find myself homeless in Miami. My driver's license has never been revoked or suspended. It is merely expired. Even though I resided at the same address in Florida for more than 20 years I cannot renew my license since I am not a "permanent resident" of Florida. To send over the net for my birth certificate, they want a scan of my driver's license. Good old catch 22 in play. After this going on for a year and a half I say give me the chip in the arm. At least then I can prove who I am.
All this crap with stolen and lost IDs could easily be avoided with banks providing tiny safe deposit boxes. It doesn't require a large drawer to hold copies of driver license, birth certificate, passport, deeds to property etc.
When the issuing government agency gives you one of these documents it should forward a copy to the bank near where you live. Driver's License stolen? Go to bank and get the copy. Go to DMV to get another copy. When you go to the bank with no ID and give the drawer number, the teller can open the drawer and check the picture ID inside. The problem of proving who you are to get your stuff disappears.
Sorry to hijack the thread but it's not like Big Brother can't shut you down if he feels like it. All he has to do is add your name to the computer list of suspected terrorists. For most it would be game over right then. For those with resources, they may be able to dig themselves out after an indeterminate period of residing in Hell. :)
Renegade:
it's important to teach American children to accept electronic surveillance and coercion as early as possible. this misguided app will certainly help do that. :-(
-Gwen7 (August 18, 2014, 08:46 AM)
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To be (somewhat) contrarian...
"My phone. I bought it. I paid for it. I am responsible for it. My phone. You get the privilege of using it at my discretion. When you turn 18 and buy your own phone, then you get to set the rules for your phone and assume all responsibility and all privileges. I set the rules for my phone. Feel free to give it back to me at any time."
-Renegade (August 18, 2014, 09:16 AM)
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That's an oddly harsh and authoritarian argument (assuming you call a simple F.U. assertion an argument) coming from somebody who is so anti-authoritarian about just about everything else...
I sense a certain philosophical disconnect in progress. :huh:
It is perfectly possible to use this tool to illustrate that surveillance and coercion are not good things. I'd argue that this tool provides an excellent opportunity for that.
-Renegade (August 18, 2014, 09:16 AM)
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Ah! The old trick of deliberately creating a horrible example of "what can happen" to teach a lesson about "the horrible thing that could happen - to you!" One could argue the same thing can be said for public flogging and capital punishment. Those have their advocates too. But again, that's hardly an argument. More what you'd call an assertion.
Just sayin' ;)
-40hz (August 18, 2014, 10:46 AM)
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Like I said, "contrarian". ;)
And yes - I framed it brutally.
Children do not have all the rights that adults have. You seem to be implying that they do.
I am arguing that parents determine which rights and responsibilities children gain as they grow up to the point that they become adults and assume all rights and responsibilities for themselves.
I don't think that it's too controversial to say that it is prudent for parents to restrict the rights of their 4 year olds to own and operate firearms, or their 8 year olds to own and operate motor vehicles.
The question is about the child's readiness for any given particular right/responsibility.
A mobile phone is a convenient way to extend freedom of movement. The app is a tool to maintain the mobile phone there.
But it's not up to you or me to determine when other people's children are ready to assume any given right or responsibility -- that is purely the domain of the parent. Not you. Not me. Not the state. Not media pundits. Parents. Only. Exclusively.
I sense a certain philosophical disconnect in progress. :huh:
-40hz (August 18, 2014, 10:46 AM)
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Perhaps I deserve a more charitable read?
Or perhaps once a child is born, it has all the rights and responsibilities of an adult and we should just kick the infant out on the street to fend for itself? ;)
Just to stir the pot a bit more... ;)
http://www.slate.com/blogs/xx_factor/2014/07/15/debra_harrell_arrested_for_letting_her_9_year_old_daughter_go_to_the_park.html
http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2014/07/arrested-for-letting-a-9-year-old-play-at-the-park-alone/374436/
http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2014/07/mom-arrested-for-letting-daughter-play-outside.html
All the same story.
It highlights a related issue. Does that woman have the right to determine whether or not her daughter is responsible enough to exercise the freedom that was granted? I've made my position on this very clear. The question there is the exact same as with the app that we're discussing here.
Renegade:
No...not everybody did something life threatening when a kid.
No...not every kid got into serious trouble over something.
No...not every kid is easily led.
No...not every teen routinely indulged in sex, drugs, and alcohol while in high school.
No...it's definitely not true that most of us didn't pay any attention while in school.
No...not every teen speeds, cuts classes, steals, regularly lies to their parents, or does bad things.
-40hz (August 18, 2014, 11:02 AM)
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Absolutely!
Not all children are the same, and not all children need to be treated/raised the same.
I don't think anyone is suggesting that this app is appropriate for all children. That would be just complete lunacy.
FWIW - I think that this app is best used sparingly, and probably only needed for kids that are prone to stray into dangerous territory.
Edvard:
Although I don't have biological progeny of my own, I've done a fair amount of genuine child rearing in my time. So I'm not insensitive or unaware of the concerns many parents have. (Unless somebody wants put forth that old bromide that says: "if they're not your own it's not the same. Because if that's the case, we might as well just end the discussion now. ;D)
-40hz (August 17, 2014, 07:25 PM)
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Far be it from me to belittle anyone's experience with raising children, seriously. But I do have to say that while caring for someone else's children has it's own great and valid burden of consequences, when you are ultimately responsible from cradle to graduation for the health, welfare, and social viability of a brand-new human being that fruited from your very own loins, the stakes are higher and the ties run deeper than any other. If you want to end the discussion, fair enough. That's just my experience.
I had written some other blatherings, but then I realized something. First of all:
You don't point electronic surveillance/control technology at a loved one. At least not in my school of ethics.
-40hz (August 17, 2014, 07:25 PM)
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With this, I whole-heartedly concur*Welll... there was that period of time when I was working night shift and my wife was working during the day, that we used one of those "Baby monitor" things so I could wake up when my son did. The alternative would have been to curl up on the floor in the kid's room. Not gonna happen. Is that surveillance? Yes. Did it cross the line? In that situation, no. But I digress...
If I thought flat-out surveillance was the only viable methodology for keeping my child in line, then I have failed as a parent. No questions. Then I realized the reason I am not opposed to this app is that (in my opinion) it fundamentally does not cross the line into surveillance. What is it then? You alluded to it:
In this case, I would have liked it more if she came up with something that sent an autoresponse back to let her know the phone had received the message - and then let her little darling know that if HE didn't also respond within a reasonable amount of time, he was grounded.
-40hz (August 17, 2014, 08:49 AM)
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(emphasis mine)
Back when I was a kid, "grounded" meant that I did something stupid, and as a consequence, I was not allowed to do certain things for a period of time. That worked pretty well, but only because I was at home in the presence of my parents who could immediately exercise the appropriate restraints on my liberty. In the case of the situations that gave rise to the reasoning behind this app, the child in question is outside of the parent's sphere of immediate influence. Sending a text saying "I know you got this message, respond or you're grounded" is somewhat toothless. That tells him/her "I can do what I want until I decide to go home and face the gauntlet". Ah, but temporarily disable their phone, especially kids of this generation, and you get their attention. This app is, or should not be more than, akin to a grounding tool. Parents could easily do (and have done) worse.
So when somebody comes to me and says "Well I remember how out of control I was at that age. We all were." I have to call BS on that and say: "Speak for yourself." Because most of us weren't. And since I deal with enough kids to appreciate how smart and aware of what's going on most of them are, it's not just simple belief on my part. They're just as sick and tired of the jerks they have to deal with as the rest of us are.
-40hz (August 18, 2014, 11:02 AM)
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Yes, I've met almost as many very smart, polite, aware kids that I would be proud to call my own, and please forgive me for implying that all kids are going to be stupid just because I was. To be honest, that isn't exactly what I meant (and for the record, I had pretty good parents and a mostly happy, secure childhood; I really had no excuse...).
Perhaps I should have phrased it that all kids have the potential to do dumb/dangerous/ill-conceived things simply by virtue that they are immature humans; works in progress whose decision-making faculties aren't fully 'in gear' until life experience has galvanized into genuine wisdom. I've met enough full-grown adults still struggling with maturity to be anything but reassured that children left to their own devices will turn out peachy. Until you can give me a 100% guarantee on some methodology of this nebulous concept we call "parenting" that will produce ideal citizens, then erring on the side of caution is rather the smart thing to do.
So when I hear people saying: "don't make me feel any less if I used it because I wanted to know if my kid was still alive or not" I suspect they too feel there is something intrinsically wrong with using an app like this one.
-40hz (August 17, 2014, 07:25 PM)
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Nope. I stand by my original thought on this one. IMO, this app does not cross the line into surveillance. I haven't seen in my son any behavior that would warrant me actually using it, but I can definitely see the potential for situations where I needed to say to him "No, really, you need to call me back now". Keyloggers, GPS trackers, text message mirrors (#1 request by parents for keeping tabs on out-of-control kids when I worked at Sprint) are all technologies I would never feel comfortable with, because you are correct; effective parenting makes these things completely unnecessary and obsolete. Use of these sorts of things is indeed a 'red flag' that parenting has failed. But that reminds me of a story...When my son was about 5, I was home with him, and was talking on the phone with my wife, who was at work. My son was standing at the front door, which was open, but the screen door was closed. While I was talking, he suddenly opened the screen door and went down the front porch stairs. Took about 3 nanoseconds. I cut off conversation with my wife, told her what just happened and that I had to go. By the time I had gotten outside, my son was gone, nowhere to be seen. After spending about 5 minutes screaming for him at the top of my lungs around the neighborhood, I found him just over the hill (maybe 20 yards from the house), talking to the neighbor girl (also approximately 5 years old, and without her parent's knowledge of her whereabouts) about puppies. I sternly reminded him of the necessity of not leaving the house without my permission or supervision and frog-marched him and the neighbor girl back over the hill. That was many years ago, and I hate to admit it, but at that moment I would have given my right arm for a motion-tracking neighborhood drone.
I like my right arm. I like it very much.
But I love my son.
Sue me.
That said, If I caught wind that my son was up to something illegal or life-threatening and he didn't own up to it, I would be sorely tempted to use whatever technology I felt appropriate to find out what was really going on. Failed parent as I might be at that moment, the least I could do is attempt to stop the tragedy from playing out further. Maybe the better option at that point would be to involve the appropriate authorities? That has it's own caveats that I'd rather not get into...
TL;DR
40hz: I agree with enough of what you've said that I think the disagreement hinges upon our opinions of exactly how draconian this app is, or could be. In my opinion, not so much. Perhaps we can agree to disagree?
40hz:
Perhaps I deserve a more charitable read?
-Renegade (August 18, 2014, 10:30 PM)
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Apologies. When you said contrarian I thought you had an actual stake in the pot. I didn't realize you meant you were proposing something as Devil's advocate. (I tend to be impatient with people playing the Devil's advocate. Mainly because the role is misused so often. I'm sure you know what I mean.) :)
But it's not up to you or me to determine when other people's children are ready to assume any given right or responsibility -- that is purely the domain of the parent. Not you. Not me. Not the state. Not media pundits. Parents. Only. Exclusively.
-Renegade (August 18, 2014, 10:30 PM)
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But we do! All the time. You don't drive until a certain age. You can't be out on certain nights of the week after a certain hour if you're under a certain age. You can't go to certain entertainments or watch certain films or play certain games until you reach what somebody else has determined is an "appropriate" age. You become eligible for military service at a given age regardless of how 'ready' your parent feels you are. You attend school on certain days at certain hours or face prosecution for truancy - along with your parents in some cases. There are so-called "juvenile courts" for dealing with seriously "troubled children." And laws that don't take full effect until you are no longer deemed a minor. None of these are based on a parent's consent or determination of their offspring's maturity. Schools look for signs of physical and emotional abuse - and are required by law to report any suspicions of same to the state's "child & family" authorities for investigation and possible legal action. And where does rearing and disciplining cross the line into the realm of abuse? The state authorities get the final word on that one.
So if only the parents have the right to decide when their kid is ready for additional responsibilities, they've certainly got a lot of people and infrastructure ready to show them that's not how things work around here.
But let's go back to a previous point:
But it's not up to you or me to determine when other people's children are ready to assume any given right or responsibility -- that is purely the domain of the parent. Not you. Not me. Not the state. Not media pundits. Parents. Only. Exclusively.
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Because I have a deeper question: Why so?
Just what is it that makes someone who has done something they can claim very little (if any) direct credit for (i.e. biologically reproduce) feel they are automatically and absolutely qualified to raise a kid? There's this weird bit of knee-jerk magical logic that says "mother/father knows best." Even when it's quite obvious that approximately half of them do not.
How does that work? :huh:
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