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Silk Road Seized - Dread Pirate Roberts Arrested
wraith808:
https://www.popehat.com/2013/10/02/the-silk-road-to-federal-prosecution-the-charges-against-ross-ulbricht/
Renegade:
Am I missing something?
-40hz (February 05, 2015, 10:01 AM)
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Yes.
Amendment I
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
--- End quote ---
Is speech not allowed in court?
Maybe you meant Amendments V through VIII?
-40hz (February 05, 2015, 10:01 AM)
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Nope. We don't even need to go there. Full stop at the 1st. That's all that is needed to show that the US judicial system is a complete and total farce and that the judges and related officers are nothing but criminals.
I don't see anything in any of the above that was clearly (or even obscurely) violated. :(
-40hz (February 05, 2015, 10:01 AM)
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The first was obviously violated.
Or is speech in court not counted?
That would be a clear violation of the 6th, but only if you believe that a trial involves actually allowing a defense. If you don't believe that defendents are allowed to present a defense, then, well, all bets are off. Accusations equal convictions?
I think that we both know where that leads. The 4th box.
Perhaps you're saying that the due process itself is unjust? Well, therein lies the critical difference between what the law actually says - as opposed to what most of us (i.e. non-attorneys) usually think it says or wish it said.
-40hz (February 05, 2015, 10:01 AM)
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There is no due process. It's a bloody joke. The rules are "fixed".
The first thing we do, let's kill all the lawyers.
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A mighty fine proposition! :P
If the law is incomprehensible, f**k it. Really.
Does everyone need to have a law degree to function?
If so, then yes. Killing all the lawyers is a good start to stave off that insanity.
You don't get off that easy talking about "Oh, gee, if only we poor serfs understood the heights and depths of law, and how it makes 'society' a better place!"
BS.
If everyone needs to spend 4 years of their life studying law, killing all the lawyers is a far, far better option.
Should we have any problems with slitting people's throats when they're attempting to force people into labour? Slavery isn't cool, and the implications of what you've said imply exactly that (if one accepts that "ignorance of the law is no excuse" -- need to be somewhat clear with that qualification before we start killing all the lawyers :P ).
Keep this in mind:
http://thelead.blogs.cnn.com/2013/12/31/40000-new-laws-take-effect-in-2014/
40,000 new laws. That YOU are responsible for. Personally. And that you MUST know. (Ok, well... some you won't need to know because you are in IT and don't need to know some new commercial fishing laws, etc. But either way... 40,000 or 400... it's a LOT!)
Sorry - No. There is no reasonable expectation for most people to know what the law is. At all. Except in the most basic forms, e.g. theft, murder, etc.
40,000 new laws? In 1 year? Really?
Ignorance of the law **IS** an excuse.
But, this is a wild tangent.
It still remains that the judge violated Ross' fundamental right to free speech in proscribing several of his proposed defenses.
The real criminal here is Katherine Bolan Forrest (TOR .onion link).
If Ross was the DPR, he did nothing wrong.
If Ross was the DPR, he's a bloody hero.
Please note that some of the most popular drugs on the Silk Road were prescription drugs sold for 10% of the cost of regular prescriptions.
Does that give any more perspective on the issue? ;)
40hz:
Am I missing something?
-40hz (February 05, 2015, 10:01 AM)
--- End quote ---
Yes.
Amendment I
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
--- End quote ---
Is speech not allowed in court? -Renegade (February 05, 2015, 10:51 AM)
--- End quote ---
Nope.
Not unbridled speech anyway. It's an adversarial system, which means it's Q&A format. You can ask questions. And you can answer questions as given. But you're not allowed to make speeches. Or go off on tangents or rants. The prosecutor and defence team leader are allowed to address the jury directly at the beginning of the trial where they lay out what they intend to prove.
Then the trial moves to the Q&A with witnesses who are required under oath to directly answer the questions - as posed to them - without speechifying or editorial glosses. You can be held in contempt if you do otherwise.
Then there is the summation speeches where the prosecution followed by the defense are allowed to recap to the jury what they believe they have established, after which they ask the jury to pass the verdict their side is asking for.
Finally, (another speech) the judge charges the jury - giving them specific instructions on how each point of the law as found in the charges is to be interpreted along with some general instructions on how a jury is supposed to conduct its deliberations plus a short homily on the importance of what they are being asked to do.
Then it's all over until the verdict comes back and...it's showtime! (More speeches!)
So as you can see, free speech as most people interpret it, is not a part of a US criminal trial. Nor is it actually allowed. Because a court trial is, in itself, not a forum for public debate. That comes before and after. Not during.
Maybe you meant Amendments V through VIII?
-40hz (February 05, 2015, 10:01 AM)
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Nope. We don't even need to go there. Full stop at the 1st. That's all that is needed to show that the US judicial system is a complete and total farce and that the judges and related officers are nothing but criminals.
--- End quote ---
The First Amendment has absolutely nothing to do with due process. It deals with freedom of religion, speech, the press, the right of peaceful assembly, and redress of grievances against the government.
Freedom of speech (in the sense you're taking it) doesn't apply in a US court of law. So I wouldn’t see why you'd want to make a full stop here. You've gotten off at the wrong highway exit.
I don't see anything in any of the above that was clearly (or even obscurely) violated. :(
-40hz (February 05, 2015, 10:01 AM)
--- End quote ---
The first was obviously violated.
Or is speech in court not counted?
--- End quote ---
No. And no. See above.
That would be a clear violation of the 6th, but only if you believe that a trial involves actually allowing a defense. If you don't believe that defendants are allowed to present a defense, then, well, all bets are off. Accusations equal convictions?
I think that we both know where that leads. The 4th box.
--- End quote ---
Convictions are what a jury decides. No more, no less. Including if they decide to ignore the law in most (but not all) cases.
Perhaps you're saying that the due process itself is unjust? Well, therein lies the critical difference between what the law actually says - as opposed to what most of us (i.e. non-attorneys) usually think it says or wish it said.
-40hz (February 05, 2015, 10:01 AM)
--- End quote ---
There is no due process. It's a bloody joke. The rules are "fixed".
--- End quote ---
So sez Ren! But in practice, it works pretty well most of the time. Possibly something you clearly can't allow yourself to acknowledge - or even see? :)
The first thing we do, let's kill all the lawyers.
--- End quote ---
A mighty fine proposition! :P
If the law is incomprehensible, f**k it. Really.
Does everyone need to have a law degree to function?
If so, then yes. Killing all the lawyers is a good start to stave off that insanity.
You don't get off that easy talking about "Oh, gee, if only we poor serfs understood the heights and depths of law, and how it makes 'society' a better place!"
--- End quote ---
One of the unfortunate side effects of having a judiciary that attempts (as far as is possible) to follow the letter of law, is that there will be an inevitable slide towards increasing complexity as people (and attorneys) constantly attempt to get around the intent of the law as written by playing semantic games.
That leads to court rulings and additional laws being passed which attempt to clarify and define what was originally intended. Because this occurs in a willy-nilly (i.e case-by-case) fashion, noise gets introduced into the system. That results in differing rulings by courts in different jurisdictions and conflicting laws being passed. The United States also has the often conflicting goals and overlapping powers of its federal and state governments to contend with. So it's even more legally complicated here than it is for most places on this tired planet.
I think the mess found in US law is more attributable to our cleverness with words and a desire to "do whatever we want to do, whenever we want to do it" than anything else.
There is no reasonable expectation for most people to know what the law is. At all. Except in the most basic forms, e.g. theft, murder, etc.
40,000 new laws? In 1 year? Really?
Ignorance of the law **IS** an excuse.
--- End quote ---
If true, so much for expecting, or even asking people, to exercise any form of social responsibility.
I'm guessing you're not a US citizen - or maybe just haven't lived very long among us American Neanderthals? :P
Most of us don't have some weird existential issue about dealing with this. Mainly because it's not the nightmare you seem to think it is. It's just complicated. Fortunately, most people here feel up to the task. We've grown up with it and live it, so we have lots of experience dealing with our government. We get by.
It still remains that the judge violated Ross' fundamental right to free speech in proscribing several of his proposed defenses.
--- End quote ---
Nope. It was in keeping with the established rules of due process - which deal with the admissibility of evidence and testimony based on how well they're related (i.e. germane) to the charges being made.
Again, a US court isn't a public forum. It's a public trial. You can't just introduce anything you want into a trial and expect it to be allowed. Otherwise everybody could argue god told them do it -and their belief in the truth of that is protected under the 1st Amendment. And since who can say what god may or may not choose to have us do, the charges must be dismissed.
If you want to push everything to its logical extreme, everything ultimately reduces to an absurdity. Let's not go there. It's fun. But it wastes a lot of words.
Please note that some of the most popular drugs on the Silk Road were prescription drugs sold for 10% of the cost of regular prescriptions.[/size]
Does that give any more perspective on the issue? ;)
--- End quote ---
It does. For you it's about what you feel the law should be. Not what it is.
In the US, all prescription medication is regulated by law, doled out exclusively by licensed pharmacists out of licensed pharmacies or by licensed medical doctors.. And I don't want to get into a whole discussion about drugs and drug prices (prescription or otherwise) right now because it's a very sore spot for me personally. But until the law changes that's the way it works.
I guess you're arguing from the perspective of public advocacy and reform, whereas I'm just trying to clarify for you how the law actually operates here. :)
Oh well...I've spent way more time than I should on all this than I should. So I'm gonna bow out from this thread for now. I hope Popehat does an analysis of the trial and the verdict soon. Ken White usually cuts through the chaff and delivers pure gold when it comes to helping amateurs like me understand how all this legal stuff really works.
Later! :Thmbsup:
wraith808:
So sez Ren! But in practice, it works pretty well most of the time. Possibly something you clearly can't allow yourself to acknowledge - or even see?
-40hz (February 05, 2015, 12:12 PM)
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Actually, after many real world experiences in court, I'd more agree with Ren on this point.
40hz:
Actually, after many real world experiences in court, I'd more agree with Ren on this point.-wraith808 (February 05, 2015, 12:40 PM)
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I hear you. And I might even be inclined to agree (in principle at least) with a fair amount what Ren's saying. But what he's saying is not the way these things actually work in court. And if you persist in trying to use the rules of one board game while playing a completely different one, you're apt to be disappointed before very long. And lose.
Now if you want to talk about pushing for judicial and procedural reforms, that's an entirely different matter. But such proposed reforms aren't the law until they've become law. And that isn't going to help this former defendant right now.
----------------------------------------
P.S. I've had my share of experience with courts too - although these were all on the witness, 'expert' testimony, and jury side of the equation, thank heavens! They were all extremely interesting and eye-opening experiences. But they're also the sort of experiences best avoided if at all possible. At least AFAIC.
That said, I still think it works pretty well most of the time. :)
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