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Knight to queen's bishop 3 - Snowden charged with espionage.
dr_andus:
The question then is how comfortable people are with lying. Politicians are obviously extremely comfortable with it.
-Renegade (October 29, 2013, 04:06 AM)
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One problem with this position is that it does not acknowledge that the daily work of a politician consists of negotiating conflicting demands from opposing interests, while the world is constantly changing around them. Something will always look like a lie from someone's particular position, and opponents will be more than happy to point those out to exploit them for their own particular political interests.
This doesn't mean that barefaced lies are always OK. But asking politicians to always only tell the truth and only the truth is a highly unrealistic demand that no one is actually capable of doing in their own lives either. Perpetuating such unrealistic expectations by saying that "all politicians are liars" undermines the democratic process because it breeds cynicism and simply turns people off politics and they stop voting and they get even more disenfranchised. There will never be such a thing as a politician that 100% always tells the truth as it is. That is only possible in an alternate Platonic world or maybe in Heaven.
Stoic Joker:
There is a big difference between spurious omission and answering a simple yes or no question incorrectly. The first simply allows one to hold back a few cards ... And the other is a flat out lie.
wraith808:
There is a big difference between spurious omission and answering a simple yes or no question incorrectly. The first simply allows one to hold back a few cards ... And the other is a flat out lie.
-Stoic Joker (October 29, 2013, 02:19 PM)
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This.
Personally, I'm bad at either, which is the reason that I hate to bargain, and hate to barter. I just set what I'm interested in and say it... and if the person hedges or tries to bargain, I walk away.
That isn't to say that I question the morals or approach of anyone who does it differently. I'm just aware that people are good at that, and are able to do that with proficiency, and alter my approach correspondingly.
Diplomacy is a question of degrees in a lot of cases, and coming to such a common ground. You may respect someone that is open, earnest, and honest on a personal level. But that person will not make a good diplomat IMO. You have to be able to walk that line between your country's interests, and bargaining in good faith.
IainB:
/rant on
Could we please either drop or move to a separate discussion thread the irrelevant discussion in this thread that has arisen regarding the defending/arguing/rationalising/reinforcing or self-justification, or whatever, of our moral belief system in human honesty and integrity in society?
It is becoming a tedious distraction.
Whether one believes or is of the opinion, or whatever, that honesty and integrity are vitally important in a person's character, or in society generally, or not, that's just fine. However, and though I could be wrong, of course, an argument over the rightness/wrongness of the belief would seem to have two-fifths of ¼ of sod all to do with the thread Knight to queen's bishop 3 - Snowden charged with espionage.
/rant off
Renegade:
However, and though I could be wrong, of course, an argument over the rightness/wrongness of the belief would seem to have two-fifths of ¼ of sod all to do with the thread Knight to queen's bishop 3 - Snowden charged with espionage.
-IainB (October 29, 2013, 05:50 PM)
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You're right. This is straying off topic.
So last bit in a spoiler. ;)
@dr_andusThe question then is how comfortable people are with lying. Politicians are obviously extremely comfortable with it.
-Renegade (October 29, 2013, 04:06 AM)
--- End quote ---
One problem with this position is that it does not acknowledge that the daily work of a politician consists of negotiating conflicting demands from opposing interests, while the world is constantly changing around them. Something will always look like a lie from someone's particular position, and opponents will be more than happy to point those out to exploit them for their own particular political interests.
-dr_andus (October 29, 2013, 02:10 PM)
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Perspective isn't particularly important to whether or not someone is lying.
For example, if I really believe that the Earth is flat, and I tell you that, I'm not lying; I'm merely mistaken.
However, if I believe that the world is flat and I tell you that the world is spherical, then I am lying, even if what I say is correct.
This goes back to good/bad faith and intentions, which is a very muddy topic. i.e. It is nigh impossible to absolutely ascertain someone's intentions with complete accuracy.
This doesn't mean that barefaced lies are always OK. But asking politicians to always only tell the truth and only the truth is a highly unrealistic demand that no one is actually capable of doing in their own lives either.
-dr_andus (October 29, 2013, 02:10 PM)
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I understand what you're saying.
Perpetuating such unrealistic expectations by saying that "all politicians are liars" undermines the democratic process because it breeds cynicism and simply turns people off politics and they stop voting and they get even more disenfranchised.
-dr_andus (October 29, 2013, 02:10 PM)
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Hehehe! Good! The sooner we're done and finished with government the better. ;)
We don't need a ruling class. It hasn't worked out well for people for thousands of years, and it's still not working out well. Why do we continue down the same path and always expect different results? That's insane.
There will never be such a thing as a politician that 100% always tells the truth as it is. That is only possible in an alternate Platonic world or maybe in Heaven.
-dr_andus (October 29, 2013, 02:10 PM)
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Their level of honesty doesn't even remotely approach a level that could be considered "mostly honest". So why do we continue with it? It's not rational.
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