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Is "Thank you for your service" enough for veterans?

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mouser:
A man/woman in uniform has no more control over what military operations their country engages in than any other citizen.

That's why I think it makes sense to separate support for the men and women who serve in the military from the politicians and the military-industrial corporations who are always so hungry for war.

I think the anti-war movement has been very wise to make this distinction in modern times.

I think we have every right to demand that police officers and military men and women meet the highest standards of behavior and complain loudly when they do not.  And expect them to refuse illegal orders and speak out when they see wrongdoing, and to participate in our political process to bring about change for the better.

But it's unfair to hold a person in uniform responsible for decisions made by politicians.  And by the same token, military men and women have to accept that when people vehemently oppose a military intervention -- it is not a personal judgement against the men and women in the military.

Renegade:
A man/woman in uniform has no more control over what military operations their country engages in than any other citizen.

That's why I think it makes sense to separate support for the men and women who serve in the military from the politicians and the military-industrial corporations who are always so hungry for war.

I think the anti-war movement has been very wise to make this distinction in modern times.

I think we have every right to demand that police officers and military men and women meet the highest standards of behavior and complain loudly when they do not.  And expect them to refuse illegal orders and speak out when they see wrongdoing, and to participate in our political process to bring about change for the better.

But it's unfair to hold a person in uniform responsible for decisions made by politicians.  And by the same token, military men and women have to accept that when people vehemently oppose a military intervention -- it is not a personal judgement against the men and women in the military.

-mouser (November 06, 2011, 12:35 AM)
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Why must you insist on being so much more eloquent than everyone else? :P ;D

I think you've nicely laid out some of what I was thinking above.

JavaJones:
I was going to chime in but mouser said it for me. Good work. I support and appreciate those who serve, regardless of my views on any particular conflict or political decision that may put them in harm's way.

That being said, in service you must also uphold moral and ethical behavior as much as possible. I know this is often hard on the battlefield, tough choices have to be made in a split second, and things aren't always clear. Yet there are also plenty of examples where that wasn't the case, but a bad choice was clearly made anyway (Abu Ghraib anyone?). Fortunately the vast majority of people in the military are good people, doing the best they can, and don't want to hurt people unnecessarily. They deserve respect even more because I'm sure it's hard to do what they are asked to do while maintaining the core of their essentially good human nature. Killing someone can never be easy unless you are a psychopath.

Respect.

- Oshyan

wraith808:
I know this is often hard on the battlefield, tough choices have to be made in a split second, and things aren't always clear.
-JavaJones (November 06, 2011, 01:59 AM)
--- End quote ---

In the middle of the battlefield, it's not just tough- it's a call you shouldn't ever make, nor have to make, at a certain level.  In a lot of ways, the system is screwed up in that there's way too much politics in the armed forces, therefore people get command positions that shouldn't have them.  Especially since there is a reason the command structure is in place- to put these decisions in the hands of one person, so they can be made as one.  This is so they can act as one mind, and not have to worry about whether someone else in their unit will make a different decision and not cover their back.  Sometimes things are obviously wrong, i.e. gunning down an unresisting civilian populace.  But in the vast majority of cases, this is the reason that unquestioning obedience is drummed into the lower ranks, starting from the moment they enter boot camp.

Renegade:
I was going to chime in but mouser said it for me. Good work. I support and appreciate those who serve, regardless of my views on any particular conflict or political decision that may put them in harm's way.
-JavaJones (November 06, 2011, 01:59 AM)
--- End quote ---

I suppose I'm in a very different situation as an expat. I look on military forces where I live, have lived, and around the world. I don't particularly draw too many distinctions between them, except for the ones that are active, e.g. the US (to cite the obvious example), and the ones that aren't particularly active... Hmmm... can't really think of a decent example there.

I can't say that I have much respect for the North Korean armed forces. Heck. It's a meal ticket. Quite literally. If I had the choice to serve or starve, I'd serve. But there's nothing admirable in that decision as far as I can see. (Going back to Kant and duty.) My decision to serve is more of a decision to feed myself. Now, there's nothing wrong with that, but there's nothing particularly admirable either.

Respect and fearHowever, I certainly have respect for their special forces ability to do serious damage.

I met a retired Korean special forces colonel... You want to talk about one scary, scary, scary fellow... Jeez... Perhaps "respect" I mean in the biblical sense of "fear".


But it's unfair to hold a person in uniform responsible for decisions made by politicians.
--- End quote ---

I think that's really an important thing that should be emphasized. Which is why I mentioned "intent" above.

ControverialWhat I find disappointing, is the willingness of senior military staff to follow decisions by politicians. When it comes to defense, sure - follow orders. When it comes to offense... we have a problem.


Dunno... I suppose I'm a fence sitter.

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