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Steve Jobs is dead.

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Renegade:
Point taken.  But that's your opinion.  Saying that you don't have a high opinion of what a person believes, has done, and has left behind is one thing.  To say that someone his a horrible human being because of those things, especially when (1) you don't know what he/she has done behind the scenes, but only second hand accounts, and (2) it's just because they didn't do something when you judge that they could have is my problem with the whole 'horrible human being' bit.  It's a bit beyond the pale, IMO.
-wraith808 (October 06, 2011, 12:26 PM)
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I can see that.

Too soon...But in the absence of any evidence, I just go with Ockham's Razor. Ultimately, we only have 2nd and 3rd and 4th hand accounts of events. For your #2 there, well, dunno. I didn't state the "horrible human being" thing (though I did state something else above). But I don't see him as a "hero". I've stated who I think are real heroes.

Ultimately we don't owe anyone else anything. But that's what separates a lot of us. That's one of the reasons why nobody can help but utter "Mother Theresa" with the utmost reverence and respect. Taking is one thing. Giving is another. Nobody has any respect for taking. Giving on the other hand? A different story. We revere those that do.

Steve? Giving? No evidence. Ockham's razor. Game over for me.

wraith808:
Why does that make you a horrible human being?  Different views (that don't affect anyone outside of your not doing the same as they do) makes you a horrible human being?
-wraith808 (October 06, 2011, 11:31 AM)
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It's not the only reason why I dislike him, but it cemented my opinion of him.
-Eóin (October 06, 2011, 12:32 PM)
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In my opinion, there's a big difference between 'dislike' and 'he's a horrible human being'.  Personally, I reserve that for very few people that have done things that no amount of spin or explanation or other mitigating things they've done, it can't account for nor excuse the horrendously terrible things that they've done.  The toll of their decisions is lives spent- not lives not save, but spent- on the fires of their ego, hate, etc.

From what I know of his policies and the decisions that he made in relation to Apple and his business practices, there are several things that I don't agree with.  No matter how much money that I personally make, I will always do things outside of myself, that don't directly benefit me, and I can't see how someone could decide differently if they have even greater resources.  But those are personal decisions, and I personally can't see calling someone a 'horrible human being' because they don't espouse those same beliefs.

That's where the divide comes for me...


I can see that.
 
(more behind the cut in the referenced post)

-Renegade (October 06, 2011, 12:44 PM)
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I can see that, and I totally agree.  In my opinion, no matter what you work for/are given, there are those less fortunate and in less than ideal circumstances, they could be you, so I give.  Not as much as I think I should, nor I realistically could, but there it is.  So I don't look at any deeds that aren't in service as merit-worthy.  But truthfully, that's not the kind of world we live in.  That's why people who are *not* in service make the most money.  And that's why most (all?) governing parties are the way that they are.

tomos:
I wish the guy luck (whatever is going on for him now, I dont think Apple/etc is important any more anyways...)

a few other comments/thoughts -

* a person and what they do are different things (and no, I'm not making excuses for anything there)
* why wouldnt he be afraid of dying?? (related to Superboyacs quote above)
* I think to be a successful CEO or top-manager [of a corporation at any rate] you need to be driven, obsessive, workaholic. Why should Jobs be any different - well, I know, there's loads of possible reasons why he could have been different, but he wasnt...
* I think he was a great innovater-inventor - most inventors are just working on what has been done before anyways
* His great "strengths" were also probably his greatest weaknesses (e.g. think control-freak)
* Giving is often over-rated. I mean it's often done by people who have already screwed the world - and really, if they want to give, they could start by trying to introduce fair work standards/wages etc as discussed elsewhere here on dc

f0dder:
I think he was a great innovater-inventor-tomos (October 06, 2011, 01:10 PM)
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More like a polisher.

tomos:
I think he was a great innovater-inventor-tomos (October 06, 2011, 01:10 PM)
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More like a polisher.
-f0dder (October 06, 2011, 01:12 PM)
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yeah,
maybe the 'great' was going too far

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