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Desktop Linux: The dream is dead
CodeTRUCKER:
Ok, time for a funny...
Don't Open for Two YearsThis thread is dead. :rip:
Psst... if you opened this before 11/18/2012 12:38:03 AM... you peeked! :eusa_naughty:
Desktop Linux: The dream is dead
steeladept:
Mono has an entire framework along with it. So you don't have to mess around with finding parts here and there. It's also a large project with a community to back it up, and a massive larger C# community. You don't get that with RealBasic, although RealBasic still offers a viable cross-platform solution.
Java, well, it's probably much better than before, but it ended up being write once, break everywhere. I don't know if it's viable on the desktop. Someone that knows more would do better to comment on it. Just from what I've seen though, I can't see opting for Java. It just seems like all the Java stuff out there is server and enterprise stuff. Cross-platform isn't really so much of an issue in server environments because you need to commit to the server in a very deep way, unlike the way in which you commit to a desktop, which is rather shallow by comparison.
C/C++... Sigh... Well, it's a toolkit issue there. Qt might be ok. The last time I tried to work with it I just got frustrated and gave up. I just kept running into issues again and again.
-Renegade (November 19, 2010, 12:30 AM)
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The big difference I see with Mono vs C/C++ and even Java to a lesser extent is that you must compile the C/C++ code to specifically target each desired platform. Java with the JVM is less true to that, but the differences between platforms means you still have to be careful and MAY have to target certain platforms. The promise of Mono is that I write an app in a .Net language. Then, as long as the Mono/.Net version minimum is met, I don't know and don't care what you are running or, indeed, what framework you are using. You use my C# code on the framework of choice and it works. I develop on Linux, market to Windows, and you use it on a Mac. It just doesn't matter because the framework does the heavy lifting of determining what the code means. It is that simple (well in theory). And that is why Mono is a good thing.
Except when you go the Mono route, you start down the slippery slope of dipping a toe into Microsoft's patent bullshit, which as we know, any corporation is more than happy to spend a decade suing the living crap out of anyone that gets near their IP. For me, it's not worth the headache, even though Miguel de Icaza has done some wonderful things for us all.
-zridling (November 10, 2010, 07:31 AM)
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The catch here is Novell (and hence MONO) have a written legal agreement that allows this. Indeed, Microsoft is a Junior Partner in the project. They will never sue over Mono because they will flat out loose due to their previous agreements. Moreover, they will loose sales because apps they can sell (without costly rewriting of code) can't run on Linux without it. Lastly if you have had your ear anywhere in this hemisphere of IT, you will know that Microsoft's new big push is Azure which is their cloud-based initiative. If this can work out for them, they see much of the desktop as irrelevant from a user perspective. I honestly believe they are hedging their bets with respect to the desktop. If it survives, then Windows will stay one of their premiere products. If the cloud based initiatives gain much more traction, they will start to evolve from a desktop product to a premiere cloud-based product where the desktop truly is irrelevant (and they will finally cede the OS to Linux or some stripped free version of windows).
Which do I think is most likely? Well I think their best case scenario is some hybrid where the Cloud is the predominant app running on fat client OS's, such as Windows. I give that a slightly better than 50/50 chance. Otherwise my guess is they will transition to an appliance that boots to the cloud where they will try to establish a presence at least as predominate as they are on the desktop now. My looking glass says one of these two are about 85% likely to occur with the other 15% being one of several other scenarios (such as ChromeOS becoming the defacto client for a cloud-based user-base).
Tell me where you think I am wrong. This is fun looking into the future where we can come back in 5 years and see how close we were in guessing the tides. :D
Renegade:
Tell me where you think I am wrong. This is fun looking into the future where we can come back in 5 years and see how close we were in guessing the tides. :D
-steeladept (November 19, 2010, 02:51 PM)
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No argument here. :)
It will be interesting to see how fast it happens.
zridling:
Again, the problem with Mono is Microsoft. Why bother getting your code infected and getting anywhere near Microsoft if you're programming for Linux? You're just inviting a lawsuit that will kill you. Even if you survive a frivolous suit, you've still lost millions. It was Microsoft who funded SCO for a decade. It's Microsoft who regularly rattles their patent saber, claiming that Linux violates over 235 Microsoft patents and Microsoft is willing to sue without notice (Steve Ballmer loves to pull this one out in at least one interview per year).
Once you lose trust with a company, e.g., Google, you have almost no reason to give them a second or 16th chance at screwing you or your data.
I don't mind being called cheap. Like many Americans, I live paycheck to paycheck, one disaster away from losing what little I have. It's also the same reason I live a "small" life. The few times I have taken chances, I've usually gotten screwed by an employer, sued (and lost), or even been called into the Attorney General's office for a one-way talk.
The same argument that states, "Everyone uses Microsoft Office" can also be said about a lot of proprietary programs or cloud services. For example, from 2007 to early 2010, you could say "Everyone uses an iPhone." But in turn would you therefore have us pay Apple for the privilege of being a market leader, thus shutting down any competition and ensuring Apple "wins"? That's being a prisoner of the moment. But let's also not confuse a program with a a format; even Microsoft 2010 can write and save files in ODF. And while I like LibreOffice, I would never say everyone should use it. (OpenOffice is effectively dead now that Oracle controls it, so you'll see it dwindle soon.)
The cloud has already made the OS irrelevant for me. I can visit and do anything on any site I want involving multimedia on my Linux machine. The only things left that I (personally) do on the desktop is (1) spreadsheet work, (2) photo editing, and (3) other LibreOffice tasks. I'm just an end user, not a corporation, not a company, not a programmer. I used to do everything on the desktop, but again, free cloud services has taken much of that away. One example: I no longer keep MP3's on my HD, instead I have several dozen playlists of songs from YouTube, most of them HQ and/or concert performances. It's pretty cool to hear (and see) David Bowie play variations of the same song over the past 41 years!
I could go on. But my point is simple: I'm not ceding any ground or money to a corporation, be it Apple, Microsoft, Facebook, or the ever-growing behemoth, Google. A corporation does not have my interest at stake, does not share my values toward open data, and has not earned my trust. Like governments, they will inevitably disappoint. Microsoft, Apple, and Google will justify just about anything to sell their products in China, even piracy and theft of their IP when China decides they're ready to keep the profit for themselves. Chinese jackasses hacked my Google account earlier this year and instead of letting me know something, Google just canceled my account and my data! (I had it all backed up, but they didn't even have the decency to inform me until eight weeks later what had happened to my account.) Go figure.
Renegade:
...
The cloud has already made the OS irrelevant for me. I can visit and do anything on any site I want involving multimedia on my Linux machine. The only things left that I (personally) do on the desktop is (1) spreadsheet work, (2) photo editing, and (3) other LibreOffice tasks. I'm just an end user, not a corporation, not a company, not a programmer. I used to do everything on the desktop, but again, free cloud services has taken much of that away. One example: I no longer keep MP3's on my HD, instead I have several dozen playlists of songs from YouTube, most of them HQ and/or concert performances. It's pretty cool to hear (and see) David Bowie play variations of the same song over the past 41 years!
I could go on. But my point is simple: I'm not ceding any ground or money to a corporation, be it Apple, Microsoft, Facebook, or the ever-growing behemoth, Google. A corporation does not have my interest at stake, does not share my values toward open data, and has not earned my trust. Like governments, they will inevitably disappoint. Microsoft, Apple, and Google will justify just about anything to sell their products in China, even piracy and theft of their IP when China decides they're ready to keep the profit for themselves. Chinese jackasses hacked my Google account earlier this year and instead of letting me know something, Google just canceled my account and my data! (I had it all backed up, but they didn't even have the decency to inform me until eight weeks later what had happened to my account.) Go figure.
-zridling (November 20, 2010, 11:49 PM)
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I've been slowly changing my mind about the cloud. I'm eeking over there slowly, but surely.
For the moment, I find a lot of things useful, and in fact do use some services. Other things, sorry. They're holy and on MY computer under MY control. 100%.
Your getting burned there is the exact reason why I've resisted for so long. I got burned before, and I don't want to get burned again.
I will be slowly moving into the cloud, but I'll make damn sure I've got a ladder in case I need to step down off the cloud...
Once the cloud is more of a reality, platforms will be less important. I think that's a good thing.
Still, I want to see strong open source initiatives and strong for-profit companies out there. We need both of them. Just one isn't going to cut it.
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