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General brainstorming for Note-taking software
superboyac:
I have to chime in on OneNote...
jimdoria's got me curious once again about this program. I got a free copy from Microsoft a couple of years ago, and I've only fiddled with it a little. It's definitely an interesting program and has gotten a lot of love from even the most hardcore MS haters, so there's something to be said about that. jimdoria's singled out presentation as the issue to focus on in these programs. I'd have to disagree with that somewhat, but I understand his point. Presentation is a broad term that can include aspects of user interface and organization ability, and probably other things. I can see that he was focusing primarily on OneNote's ability to just plaster information all over the desktop of the program, which is definitely a cool and unique feature. For myself, I haven't given that a fair try yet, and when I did try it, I didn't like it because I like the usual style where I can only see one note at a time, it's just easier for me to think about that way. But, obviously, there is an advantage to seeing multiple notes all at once, and programs like OneNote, Evernote, and Surfulater have implemented this to a varying degree. Personally, I'm not a big fan, but others love it to death. In the case of Evernote and Surfulater, I don't like the whole scroll system of just putting the notes one after each other. Surfulater actually does it better because it still has the virtual tree on the left, so if you don't want to scroll, you can click on the note title in the tree (like a normal tree heirarchy program) and the view will jump directly to that note. That being the case, Evernote's search feature is hands down the best around, so finding anything is not really a problem. Then there's Onenote, which doesn't do either of these things well, but it does put all the notes visible in a freeform way, not a scroll.
it's mind boggling to try to figure out which is the best way to do it, and it's all very subjective. The best to do is to take the best parts of each program and combine them into the ultimate notetaking program, like I mentioned before. Ideally, the user can decide which "mode" he wants the information presented in and all the modes are available in the same program. How cool would that be!
thomthowolf:
We may have talked about this before... it seems that "Note-taking" has a couple of different meanings.
Zaine mentioned outlining capabilities and that seems like a good thing for taking notes on purpose....like at a meeting or training session.
I've seen a lot of other comments regarding grabbing a bit (byte) of information to tuck away for later -- easy -- retrieval. We're looking for a dumping ground for information so we can "put this somewhere" and still find it when it suddenly becomes important again.
Since I assume meetings notes might fall into the same category, what we really need is a dumping ground that has two distinct interfaces. 1 for the one-note type, on-purpose stuff and 1 for the Evernote, grab-this-stuff-and-remember-where-it-came-from type.
In both cases, we want to be able to find the information by searching (keyword, date, category), timeline, and some sort of tree view.
Does that sound about right?
-Rover (May 10, 2006, 09:04 AM)
--- End quote ---
I think you have stated the problem beautifully. Kind of like having a long term memory and a short term memory mode. I am currently very happy with Evernote for the "dump it in and find it later" stuff, but there is no good way of really "massaging" the information within that program. It may be that what is wanted is something that works and plays well with evernote.
The only cautionary note I have to offer is that it has been a looong time since any changes were made to that software. Even their once immaculate web forums are starting to show signs of neglect. I think there may be serious trouble over in evernote land.
Jimdoria:
@Rover:
One Note does the grab-and-tuck-away thing pretty well, too. You can paste in text from a website, and it will automatically include a hyperlink back to the site you grabbed it from. It also retains much of the formatting. Of course, this is all assuming you're using Internet Explorer. If you try it using Firefox, the text just comes out as:
:P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P
(kidding... sort of.)
@Superboyac
I think your post makes a very important point. It is VERY subjective. On another board I frequent, there was a discussion about 3-D modelling software and how many different titles and ways of working there are. Someone commented that it was the most personalized kind of software - that there was no "works best for everyone" solution.
I think note taking of software has the same issue. If the software is supposed to model, at some level, the way you think, then there can't be a one-size-fits-all answer, because people think very differently. You wouldn't expect an electrical engineer and a performance artist to have the same thought processes or approach to their work.
So it seems to me that the "ultimate" note taking software either can't exist, or would have to be some kind of super-morphing application, with the user taking a hand in the construction (or selection) of the UI. Perhaps this would look like some kind of free-text database back-end coupled with a dead-simple GUI builder front end that shipped with a number of common GUI configurations out of the box. Maybe you'd start out with pages or tabs (a la KeyNote or OneNote) but you could choose a default UI for each one - the "tree on the left" UI, the "sticky notes" UI, the "scrolling column" UI, the "cloud of tags" (del.icio.us) UI, etc. Then you could tweak the templates, mix and match, or construct your own from scratch.
It would be a pretty major project. Programmatically, though, it shouldn't be impossible. Essentially, you are dealing with two different types of objects that interact with the database. Let's call them "views." You'd need "content" views which show individual database items, and "aggregator" views which show high-level groups of items. There would be a number of these - a tree view, a list view, a tags-only view, a "canvas" view (for those sticky notes), etc. Then you'd need the underlying structure to position and link the views in the application window.
Data interchange is the other bugbear of this project. Ideally, you would want Google Desktop to work with it, because no matter how good it is, you're always going to have some of your data stored elsewhere - in Word files, in presentations, in e-mail, etc. A closed search system would be less than optimal. It should play well with others.
superboyac:
very cool, this discussion gathering a little steam again! Ok, jimdoria, how do we address all this subjectivity? From memory, I can recall just one application that I've used that has had multiple user interfaces. When I used to do HVAC engineering, we used this software called TRACE from Trane. THis program had, I believe, 3 different "modes" and you coould switch back and forth between them, it was pretty nice now that I think about it. Let me give a little background, information has to be entered into this program on a room by room basis, and the 3 modes allowed you to enter all the information in one large grid (like an excel sheet), or in a per-room basis (with "next" and "previous" buttons), and a third mode allowed you to enter the information in another way which I don't really remember (it had something to do with a different way of categorizing the rooms instead of per-room).
Anyway, the point is that it is possible to do this and there is precedent. From a psuedo-programmers perspective, let's look at what it involves. Like jimdoria said, the foundational element of all this is the note itself. You have a bunch of individual notes that can be presented, associated, and organized in different ways. Obviously, there are infinite ways to do this to satisfy everyone, but I think the main ones are the tree-heirarchy, scroll, and desktop layout style(these are all existing examples taken from existing software). Now, the question is, let's say there was a program that could do these multiple modes, how will a note "know" where to go in the different modes? Do you have to place it 3 different times? Hopefully not. I can't think of a solution, but it warrants discussion, and I will think about it and post later.
PS thomthowolf, the author of evernote has posted here under "Evermike" recently. I don't know what state Evernote is in. I know that he doesn't publicize his roadmap for reasons given in his forum.
<<By the way, jimdoria, how did you know I was an electrical engineer (or did you just throw that out there)? Does that mean you're a performance artist?>>
kfitting:
Good point superboyac... it is a concise summary of what I was thinking. Of course, I rambled more! But, the idea of having one database of info allowing multiple views is the key to this program. I would expand your list to block diagrams and flowcharts. I am working on a project right now (I'm an EE as well) where I wish I could combine Excel, AutoCAD, and Keynote into one program. Oh well... maybe one day!
Kevin
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