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how they create such beautiful graphics?

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steeladept:
Inconsistent text styling. Arggghhhhh!!!!

I wish I had a nickle for the number of times I've seen that mistake slip through multiple stages of proofing.

Any good platemaker should have spotted it even if the designers didn't. And an experienced pressman should have also caught it after he pulled his first few sets of proof sheets.
-40hz (June 21, 2010, 02:48 PM)
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Being thrown into the "pressman" position at work a little over a year ago now, I can say 1) very few places even have platemakers anymore because it is all digital presses, and 2) most times, by the time it gets to the press, the pressman is told it was approved, just box it and send it (in the digital press world, the designer sends it directly to the printer without anyone else's intervention.  The "pressman's" job is to ensure the printer is full of paper and the paper comes off the printer in good shape - not to proof or otherwise judge content).

That said, I can also say most designers in a printshop are also the printer as well and, well, there is a reason you have others proof your own work....

40hz:
Someone who paints with a brush is going to be able to pick up a computer-based tool, much less a highly complex 3D modeling and rendering application? I'm sorry, I don't think so. I've seen endless numbers of traditional artists, even those used to computers (both those who use computers in their art work and those who don't) who, despite extensive artistic knowledge and skill, are baffled by 3D modeling programs.
-JavaJones (June 21, 2010, 04:27 PM)
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Actually, I've seen several do it so I guess it's who you know and where you're looking.

All the folks I knew were also smart about it. No sitting at home with a book for ten weeks trying to figure out what was what with a cracked copy of 30-day 'trial' software for these guys and gals. They went out and got some professional training directly from AutoCAD and Lightwave. (One mark of a true Pro - they don't try to reinvent the wheel!) They were also smart about getting their employers to pay for it.

Interestingly enough, they told me that the thing that made it relatively easy for them to catch on was their existing knowledge of color theory, lighting, form construction, and perspective. In short, the basic repertoire of skills any visual artist needs to master - no matter what medium they wish to work in.

And they learned all of this while in art school. And well before the advent of affordable PC-based 3D software.

They said once you understood perspective and form, and had a working knowledge of lighting angles, learning out how to do it all with nurbs and splines and polygonal modeling became a relatively straightforward exercise. Most of it involved learning some new vocabulary. That, and where on the program menu some tool or setting could be found.

As far as 3D in general goes, I do agree with much of what you're saying. But 3D is such a different and new art form that I'd be willing to bet that we haven't seen the first truly great artist that this 'medium' is going to produce. I'm sure a digital Rembrandt or Michelangelo will someday come along to teach us all what this new art form is really about. But until then, we'll just have to content ourselves with looking at "pretty pictures" and "cool stuff."

IMHO the current crop of tools has a long way to go before they catch up to what people with the vision want to do with them. (Maybe that's why so many people working with 3D very often talk about nothing but the challenges they encountered getting their software to do what they wanted it to - and that's assuming they could get it to do what they wanted at all?  :mrgreen: )

So right now, I'd put 3D more at the 'clever' stage of it's development. The tools are too much in flux and far too difficult to work with.

Don't get me wrong. I love 3D artwork. I even collect it. But from what I've seen, 3D 'art' is more "artsy" than artistic. At least to my eyes.  

I'm sure many people will feel differently about that than I do - but hey! It's a great big beautiful world out there so there's plenty of room for differing opinions.

 ;D 8)

40hz:
Being thrown into the "pressman" position at work a little over a year ago now, I can say 1) very few places even have platemakers anymore because it is all digital presses, and 2) most times, by the time it gets to the press, the pressman is told it was approved, just box it and send it (in the digital press world, the designer sends it directly to the printer without anyone else's intervention.
-steeladept (June 21, 2010, 04:39 PM)
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Yeah, that's true. Seems like the industry has gone over to the "Just send us the PDF!" model for prepress.

And they wonder why they get treated as a commodity even though there's little or no value-added to what they're providing any more?

Guess that's the inevitable progression: art becomes craft; craft becomes manufacturing; manufacturing produces product; product becomes commodity.

I think that's what the economists call "efficiency."

The "pressman's" job is to ensure the printer is full of paper and the paper comes off the printer in good shape - not to proof or otherwise judge content).
-steeladept (June 21, 2010, 04:39 PM)
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Dude! What do you guys get paid for?   :P

Thank goodness it hasn't gotten that bad with the press operations where I live. Or it hasn't yet. At least I don't think it has. (Hope not anyway...)

But please tell me you're (at least) checking for color and QC-ing for things like picking and ghosting? Or if not, then please say you're a part of some in-house print operation  and not out there charging somebody for a schlock copy print job.

Pretty please?

 ;D

---------

P.S.

I know I'm gonna have nightmares about this tonight!

steeladept:
Dude! What do you guys get paid for?   :P

...But please tell me you're (at least) checking for color and QC-ing for things like picking and ghosting? Or if not, then please say you're a part of some in-house print operation  and not out there charging somebody for a schlock copy print job.

Pretty please?
-40hz (June 21, 2010, 06:09 PM)
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LOL...

Okay, to put your mind at ease, I will answer backwards...

1)  Yes, I do work for an internal print operation.  I am a one man shop and do everything from design (abit unofficially), setup, print, QC, package, and ship.

2)  No I don't do any color checking or any of that kind of QC.  I basically make sure it looks like the original and (maybe, if I catch it, I look at dates, names, that kind of thing - but that is outside the scope of my job and is more of a "value add" that I provide for customer service)

3)  What I get paid for is my IT skills and experience.  I was thrown in there because they they laid off all contractors and basically backfilled all empty positions with anyone that they deemed extra, which is to say if bare mimimum manning was 5 people and they had 6 or 7 (to cover vacations, busy times, etc), they cut it to 5 and used the extra 2 people to backfill.  I was one of those "extras" that was thrown into the printroom to man the printing.

3a)  That said, what most printers that I deal with (we have a lot of overflow print jobs that get outsourced so I deal with many print houses in my area) pay for is a designer that can, to a lesser extent run the printers.  They *MAY* have a specialist that schedules and runs print jobs sent to the printer, but generally the person who does the QC and finishing is also the designer who sets up the job. 

3b)  The bad news is that is not ALWAYS the case.  Where a traditional offset printing press goes digital, they often retrain the pressman to be that specialist, which means they usually end up just filling paper, scheduling and printing the jobs and handing it back to the designer.  It is a deadend job, but it does keep the outdated skilled laborer employed until retirement if they are too old to make it worth training them or just unable to grasp design.  In either case, it is cheaper than paying the unemployment and retaining, and at the same time makes for good employee relations.

Hope that puts much of your fears to rest so there are not bad nightmares.  :D

steeladept:
One other thing I found humorous -

I have been in the print room just over a year now (No IT jobs in the area that are interested in my skills apparently - either that or I don't convey them well enough).  Yet in this past year, I have taught some of the printroom operators at the printhouses we deal with, some capabilities of their own machines that they didn't know, and many of them have 2 - 5 years experience with them (they have been in the industry much longer, but 2 - 5 years ago was when these machines made their way into these companies).  I don't know if it is my IT experience or my lack of printing experience that made me ask the right questions, but I can make my machine (a Xerox Nuvera if anyone cares) do more than what most experienced operators can just because I know it's capabilities.  Eh, they learn something new, they teach me something new.  One of these days I will learn how to use Adobe Acrobat and maybe then I can do some of the prepress they are capable of ;D

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