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FARR version 2 - discuss the best way to handle 'actions'
Jan-S:
You could also use the status bar (or an optional "help" bar) to tell the user what is currently possible - e.g. when a command is currently the first item, you could display "RETURN/SPACE/#: executes command, TAB/arrow: go to list" and when a file is the first item: "RETURN/#: launch file; TAB: select file to use with command" and so on.
jgpaiva:
One thing to consider is something I've seen in several applications in recent years -- a section of the help file devoted exclusively to listing keyboard accellerators and link directly to it in the help menu.-allen (February 03, 2006, 08:00 AM)
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I sure agree with you, all this will have to be well documented, so as everyone can know how to use the power we are generating here ;)
As for keeping it newb friendly -- the keystrokes and stuff aren't likely going to be used by anyone but power users, so it seems the trick there is to have all those available shortcuts available as items in a right click contect menu as well as, perhaps, a drop down button in the toolbar. An "actions" button, so to speak.-allen (February 03, 2006, 08:00 AM)
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Here, i don't agree with you. I think we should try to fins a solution that is both suitable to power-users as much as intuitive, so as someone new to farr can see it's power immediatelly. As it is often descibred, most people when trying to use a software, only evalute it in the first use, which means that these kind of functions should be as easy as possible, but also providing as much flexibility as possible. IMO, that's the problem with powerpro, for example, os even my former shell, blackbox. Although being immenselly powerfull and configurable, the average user rejects it imediately, because it's to complex to handle.
Jan-S: that status bar idea is great, exactly what mouser was referring to, having the help file without opening the help file ;)
The problem i was referring before with the {tab} action, is that tab's would have 2 different uses aren't very well specified, and i don't think it should behave differently when there is a file or an alias, or when it is the first item or not, the idea is make everything work the same way, i think.
My point is that seen that you will be using the arrows to select the result from the result list, the way to access it should be with the down arrow (or up arrow, to start at the other end of the results, maybe). Or instead, use a number combined with a modifier, something like that.
I think that esc to go back one level is a good idea, and shift-tab is even better, since you make the queue with tab, it makes sense to dequeue it with the oposite :Thmbsup: :Thmbsup:
allen:
As for keeping it newb friendly -- the keystrokes and stuff aren't likely going to be used by anyone but power users-allen (February 03, 2006, 08:00 AM)
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Here, i don't agree with you. I think we should try to fins a solution that is both suitable to power-users as much as intuitive, so as someone new to farr can see it's power immediatelly.
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-jgpaiva (February 03, 2006, 08:42 AM)
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I don't disagree with you on this point -- I absolutely agree that it should be intuitive regardless of experience level. All I'm saying is no matter how much brainstorming you do to have optimized keyboard shortcuts, keyboard shortcuts are not par for the course for less experienced computer users. My point was that there should be an alternate method or methods of accessing all this functionality without expecting a point-click user to use the keyboard.
As it is often descibred, most people when trying to use a software, only evalute it in the first use, which means that these kind of functions should be as easy as possible, but also providing as much flexibility as possible.-jgpaiva (February 03, 2006, 08:42 AM)
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Right, which is precisely my point. There needs to be a quick, easy way to access the features from the start -- if a user has to spend the beginning of their trial of the software learning a bunch of proprietary keystrokes, they're going to throw in the towel. Give them things to click on, and display the shortcuts next to the menu items or in tooltips and they'll have their GUI interface and the shortcuts will be right there for them to learn when they're ready. It's not difficult to hit "enter" after typing a website, but users want a "go" button, you know?
jgpaiva:
It's not difficult to hit "enter" after typing a website, but users want a "go" button, you know?-allen (February 03, 2006, 08:59 AM)
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Got your point allen ;) I understood you completelly wrong :(
I also think that it is not to forget that there has to be a more (even more??) straight-forward way to do it. And your statement gave me an idea. How about having a "launch" button and a "with.." button? :D
Jan-S:
The problem i was referring before with the {tab} action, is that tab's would have 2 different uses aren't very well specified, and i don't think it should behave differently when there is a file or an alias, or when it is the first item or not, the idea is make everything work the same way, i think.-jgpaiva (February 03, 2006, 08:42 AM)
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That's right, it might be confusing. However, I wouldn't know how to make it faster / easier. The different TAB behaviours between files and aliases/keywords are just because we can speed things up for commands as we don't need to distinguish between 'open it' and 'use it (= combine it with a command)'.
My point is that seen that you will be using the arrows to select the result from the result list, the way to access it should be with the down arrow (or up arrow, to start at the other end of the results, maybe).-jgpaiva (February 03, 2006, 08:42 AM)
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When you are using the arrows, the down arrow should bring you to the list as usual. But I wouldn't like to have to use the arrows to browse to the 5th entry to select it. We definitely need a way to use the number keys - still being able to distinguish direct execution of a file entry from pushing it to the command stack.
Or instead, use a number combined with a modifier, something like that.-jgpaiva (February 03, 2006, 08:42 AM)
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This would probably be less confusing and maybe should be the default behavior. If you did a search for files and want to execute an action on a file (but not on the first match), you have to press MOD+# (with MOD being configurable as it already is) or use the arrow keys and press TAB. However, I personally am slower at using a combination like ALT+# (firstly it is slower to type and secondly I have to remember if to use ALT or CTRL or both) and would rather like to press TAB followed by the number. TAB would still have the single meaning of "combine commands" or something like that - it is always used in this context. This doesn't need to be the default behaviour, though.
I think that esc to go back one level is a good idea, and shift-tab is even better, since you make the queue with tab, it makes sense to dequeue it with the oposite :Thmbsup: :Thmbsup:-jgpaiva (February 03, 2006, 08:42 AM)
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Actually it's not my idea, I've read that SHIFT+TAB is used by Quicksilver (in another thread). And again, ESC is easier to use than a key combination here, but nothing speaks against using both shortcuts here, does it?
@allen: ACK. All these things should be available in context menus, too - e.g. doubleclicking a file entry will open the file while the context menu will have a submenu like 'with this file do >' (or similarly). And just entering a program name and pressing RETURN should still immediately execute it because this is what users will expect.
How about having a "launch" button and a "with.." button? :D-jgpaiva (February 03, 2006, 09:06 AM)
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Good idea, too! Pro users should be able to remove them, though :D And the buttons could have a "return key" and a "tab key" icon so users will eventually try them and notice how much easier this can be ;)
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