Main Area and Open Discussion > General Software Discussion
10/GUI
Paul Keith:
The idea of having to wave my hands around in the air to control anything in a precision way seems both inaccurate and tiring, and fingerprints are a real concern if you're actually touching the display surface (obviously not if you're talking about the edges, where you'd use the power button or carry it - I'm not objecting because I'm a clean freak).
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Actually you're not waving your air to control anything.
That would be more befitting of a Wii-cam and it would be a bad idea for the sensor to be so sensitive when it is used for such delicate tasks.
Instead it would just be a low sensor that works on the control principle of the 10Gui except your hands are not flat on a pad.
It's far from perfect which is why I don't like the idea either but to repeat the point of my earlier post, if you're going to do finger gestures, it's just much more practical to not alter any major component especially if you're going to increase the size of a keyboard.
The vertical edge of a monitor is great for this because all you need to do is mimic the hand gestures of pointing a finger and manipulate things depending on how many fingers the sensor detects.
Even if we're going by buttons, there is absolutely no way you can touch the screen edge no matter how large your hand is unless the buttons were poorly placed. Just try it now and see how much space you can put your hand on the back of the monitor where the buttons can be placed (with a slight alignment towards the edge so that you can spot the color flashes if there are any)
There is no precedent for such a UI being used for any precision purpose or as the general interface for a normal computer system, whereas the device I suggest is merely a potentially novel combination of existing and proven technologies.
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umm... a Wii-cam like CamSpace requires way way way more precision than the monitor sensors I'm talking about: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v0srY37kkMw
There are even concept motion sensors now that can mimic your hand movements literally - without an object and at the distance of watching a large television set. (Edit: Here it is. Project Natal: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g_txF7iETX0 - also I stand corrected about the lack of an object but still full figure detection at that range is already possible.)
I'm not going to attack your device suggestion besides mentioning that the keyword there is "novel" combination since I want to emphasize the point here that I'm not attacking your idea (much) but merely mentioning the absurdity of some of your claims against my idea.
For example, I would understand if you say that the design was just bad for so and so legitimate tech design reasons but no precedent for such a UI?
Just a wireless mouse can show you the possibility of how possible motion detection is today and did I mention webcams?
JennyB:
Another thing that I would miss would be the ability to have say two windows one side of the screen and one on the other - but neatly filling the screen - a la GridMove. This hasnt really been considered I think.
-tomos (October 13, 2009, 09:20 AM)
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The basic idea could be extended so that dropping one window onto another would stack them vertically. Each window in the horizontal strip could then be a vertical strip of windows, which are manipulated in the same manner.
Perry Mowbray:
Another thing that I would miss would be the ability to have say two windows one side of the screen and one on the other - but neatly filling the screen - a la GridMove. This hasnt really been considered I think.
-tomos (October 13, 2009, 09:20 AM)
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The basic idea could be extended so that dropping one window onto another would stack them vertically. Each window in the horizontal strip could then be a vertical strip of windows, which are manipulated in the same manner.
-JennyB (October 14, 2009, 10:03 AM)
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Yes: I had the same thought... though personally, I'd probably go for something more along the lines of Google Earth or SketchUp for moving window views... just 2D with all my fingers seems a little limited ;)
JavaJones:
Paul, I'm not entirely sure how to respond. Your concept of touching, or nearly touching the monitor for regular interaction just seems impractical to me. Why? Think about ergonomics: http://ergonomics.about.com/od/office/ss/computer_setup_2.htm Note that it says to place your monitor *at least* 20 inches from yourself. Now my arm is 25-26" to the tips of my fingers. My hand by itself, from wrist to the tip of my long middle finger is about 8 inches. So that means I'd be holding my arm out fully extended trying to manipulate things *all day long*. That's going to quickly get tiring, and develop into some kind of RSI quite soon, I'm sure.
Maybe your monitor is closer than mine (and closer than recommended), but if you're conforming to ergonomic guidelines then I don't see how your idea is functional. And certainly no one would want to build a fundamental interaction device for a computer that inherently defies guidelines for ergonomic computer setups.
But then I also have the feeling I'm not quite getting what your concept is...
As for precision, the Wii controller works as well as it does because it has sensors built-in. If you're talking about sensors on the side of your monitor that would work just like the pad in the original demo video, then yes obviously there could be that level of precision, but I thought you were talking about not actually having to touch it, something based on visual or proximity detection rather than touch. If that *is* the case then again accuracy is going to be an issue. If you're talking about physical touch, then the ergonomic issues above are clearly a significant challenge to the concept.
This may surprise you but the "Natal" video doesn't actually show very precise interaction. Try using that, or even the Wii interface, to precisely select a single word from a paragraph of text. That's the kind of UI interaction I deal with constantly on a daily basis, and anything that is going to replace my PC UI device has to be at least as good as the basic mouse in that regard.
- Oshyan
Paul Keith:
Paul, I'm not entirely sure how to respond. Your concept of touching, or nearly touching the monitor for regular interaction just seems impractical to me. Why? Think about ergonomics: http://ergonomics.about.com/od/office/ss/computer_setup_2.htm Note that it says to place your monitor *at least* 20 inches from yourself. Now my arm is 25-26" to the tips of my fingers. My hand by itself, from wrist to the tip of my long middle finger is about 8 inches. So that means I'd be holding my arm out fully extended trying to manipulate things *all day long*. That's going to quickly get tiring, and develop into some kind of RSI quite soon, I'm sure.-JavaJones (October 14, 2009, 11:58 AM)
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JavaJones, look at your previous criticisms. You never brought this up and instead used such words as "arm waving", 90% too far away and fingerprints on the edge of the screen.
It's disingenuous of you to switch arguments constantly without acknowledging first how silly and mistaken your original arguments were.
Most importantly, impractical is a far cry from silly.
It's even disingenuous to say it would be quickly tiring when part of the reason people get Carpal Tunnel Syndrome is because keyboard positions and mouse positions are not adapted to prevent fatigue.
Ergonomics equals comfort and has very little to do with fatigue.
In fact, if you actually were thinking of that screenshot then you would realize how unergonomic touchpads can be.
Can you imagine how frustrating it would be to accidentally swipe a pad because of the constraints of space if you were to have a pad jutting out of that keyboard or a pad where instead of the shape of the mouse alleviating discomfort from your wrist, you are forced to lie your palm flat on a surface even if we're talking un-even surfaces?
You also forgot the ergonomic factor that if you don't want to use monitor sensors, you just cover it. Don't want to use touchpads? Need to pull it out and replace it with a mouse.
No offense intended but it seems to me that it sounds impractical to you because you are trying to pigeonhole the sensors into something it's not. The 10Gui is not replacing keyboards here. It is replacing the mouse.
Your argument would be the equivalent of saying it is going to be quickly tiring to rest/constantly move your hands on the mouse because you can't rest both of your hands on the keyboard.
Maybe your monitor is closer than mine (and closer than recommended), but if you're conforming to ergonomic guidelines then I don't see how your idea is functional. And certainly no one would want to build a fundamental interaction device for a computer that inherently defies guidelines for ergonomic computer setups.
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Any touchpad no matter how superior inherently defies guidelines for ergonomic computer setups.
That's why mostly artist has adapted to tablet pcs while many have not. Without reprioritizing their computer goals, the ergonomics of the tablet pc isn't there.
This holds the same for laptop touchpads and I've seen many insert a mouse because it is so un-ergonomic.
In fact, for the tasks of the 10Gui it is less un-ergonomic to play thumb chopsticks flat on a surface than it is to temporarily point your finger at the edge of the monitor just as it is no more un-ergonomic to push the power button of your monitor off than to whine how every monitor doesn't come with a remote because it is "too far" according to "guidelines for egonomic computer setups".
This may surprise you but the "Natal" video doesn't actually show very precise interaction. Try using that, or even the Wii interface, to precisely select a single word from a paragraph of text. That's the kind of UI interaction I deal with constantly on a daily basis, and anything that is going to replace my PC UI device has to be at least as good as the basic mouse in that regard.
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This may also surprise you but the range of the Natal is so far compared to the fingers close to your monitor and we're talking about concept ideas here.
It is again a disingenuous red herring on your part to go from silly... impractical... no precedent for a UI...and now this!
You're a guy suggesting a touch surface to replace a mouse and you're using an example of precisely selecting a single word from a paragraph?!
Again, finger gestures are supposed to replace a "mouse" not a "keyboard".
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