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On free speech in forums
tranglos:
But I don't have a problem with the notion of: Be civil - or begone! The way I see it, it's a simple case of "Pav's house - Pav's rules." I don't have an intrinsic problem with that.
-40hz (October 10, 2009, 03:21 PM)
--- End quote ---
Oh, I agree with that part.
(Although when you take it to the logical conclusion, then in practice there is no free speech at all outside of the Speakers' Corner in the Hyde Park. But this is probably a separate topic altogether).
He loses me when he goes on to dis fairness and people who expect to be treated fairly. It smacks of the whole "blame the victim" mentality, which for some reason is typical to exactly the kind of people who write blogs and books about how great they are.
40hz:
I have been a recipient of some form of this and I would respectfully disagree.
-Paul Keith (October 10, 2009, 03:21 PM)
--- End quote ---
Don't blame you a bit Paul. It bugs me to no end too.
But being a former dialup BBS operator, and current forum moderator, I've seen this issue from 'both sides' so to speak. And despite my many misgiving, I was eventually made to conclude that there are times when posting and comment policies do become necessary. And this was as true way back in the late 80s as it is today.
I don't advise setting conditions like that right out out the chute. (I greatly prefer letting things work rather than making them work. But that's mainly because I'm lazy pragmatic...)
But still, sometimes it's unavoidable.
The key is to avoid it until you can't.
And just how long you do avoid taking certain actions says as much about the kind of person you are as it does about the amount of abuse your website is experiencing.
:)
Paul Keith:
@trianglos
I get what you're saying that's why I added: "I'm not saying it's optimal" in my post.
That said, if my Linux was crashing, I'd have to be pretty darn lucky to even get to a forum. (as opposed to irc)
On the other hand with political threads, most people who are new to politics gets easily discouraged. It's not like politics is not famous for being a flame war thread. Every little gem of a thread helps.
(Remember politics may seem less important because of all the crap there is but at best, in an equal world of quality threads, politics is just as important as tech in that it also influences the world.)
Yes, most times it can wait for newbies but most times, it also brings less benefits. We shouldn't just factor the wait. We should factor the benefits of the system as a whole.
In the case of politics, while I've seen some political forums adapt graduated permission, I haven't seen where such methods have improved the threads or the concept of freedom of speech in them.
In the case of tech support, if we are to assume that a certain tech support is being a troll magnet for some secret agenda, graduated permission does help and not only will a problem eventually be posted if the tech support forum is literally the main place to get the answer but it sends the ideas to newbies to take the plunge and try to help others and trash newb posts are much harder to come by but it also reduces the drive by trolls.
Basically, the former worsens or at best has no effect gained from graduated permission while the latter while not wholly benefitting from the system does at least improve certain aspects for that type of forum.
I have been a recipient of some form of this and I would respectfully disagree.
-Paul Keith (October 10, 2009, 03:21 PM)
--- End quote ---
Don't blame you a bit Paul. It bugs me to no end too.
But being a former dialup BBS operator, and current forum moderator, I've seen this issue from 'both sides' so to speak. And despite my many misgiving, I was eventually made to conclude that there are times when posting and comment policies do become necessary. And this was as true way back in the late 80s as it is today.
I don't advise setting conditions like that right out out the chute. (I greatly prefer letting things work rather than making them work. But that's mainly because I'm lazy pragmatic...)
But still, sometimes it's unavoidable.
The key is to avoid it until you can't.
And just how long you do avoid taking certain actions says as much about the kind of person you are as it does about the amount of abuse your website is experiencing.
:)-40hz (October 10, 2009, 03:42 PM)
--- End quote ---
Agreed 40hz but in my reply to trianglos, I was referring specifically to the application of graduated permissions in opinionated forums and tech support forums.
(I'm not sure you understood that so I just repeated what I said.)
To be honest though and with all due respect to you and trianglos, I don't really get my hate for graduated permissions but I absolutely abhor it. Maybe because it's a system that punishes all the newbs of the internet from the first time internet surfers to the casual people -- more than it punishes the trolls -- and that just irks me and at the same time, I guess the idea that we live in a world where our opinions are not as valuable as the giving away of support also irks me. I'm not saying one is superior to others but I just hate the thought that one is treated as inferior to the other but maybe it's not even that...maybe I'm so fanatical about this inequality that I react strongly to it because it seems like a case where tech-intelligent people sacrifice fully analyzing the cons and pros of the system in favor of the perception that the internet is not this global way to communicate but this global way to "control" those of lower peons and lesser talent to learn the ins and outs of being a great admin with a great forum that it just makes me react strongly against graduated permissions.
At the very least, I apologize to both of you if my post came off strongly to the point of offending.
40hz:
He loses me when he goes on to dis fairness and people who expect to be treated fairly. It smacks of the whole "blame the victim" mentality, which for some reason is typical to exactly the kind of people who write blogs and books about how great they are.
-tranglos (October 10, 2009, 03:41 PM)
--- End quote ---
Oh, that's just Steve Pavlina trying to convince himself he's not being arbitrary - even though he is. Nothing unusual there. If you read him regularly you'll soon notice how often he tries to have things both ways.
Just one of the reasons I lost interest in reading his stuff. :P
(FWIW: "Pav" is a lot less obnoxious about this stuff than some. Texas' own Ken Starks over at The Blog of Helios has him beat by a mile. Just watch the reaction to any comment that raises an skeptical eyebrow at some of Ken's more incredible true adventures as he pursues his exciting and dangerous crusade to get...erm...free Linux PCs out to disadvantaged kids.)
tranglos:
(Remember politics may seem less important because of all the crap there is but at best, in an equal world of quality threads, politics is just as important as tech in that it also influences the world.)
-Paul Keith (October 10, 2009, 03:57 PM)
--- End quote ---
I just want to go on record to say politics is the single most important thing(*). "If you're not interested in politics, then politics will get interested in you" (I've probably mangled that quote). In my dream-world, everyone would be informed and participate in politics. I still think that in practice, whether you can post a particular opinion on a particular forum or if you have to wait, doesn't make or break much of anything. You are right though that it can be discouraging, so I should probably amend my stance.
And I wish there was a politcal forum as civil and successful as DC is. It just doesn't seem to be attainable though.
(*) I am including market/economic issues here, especially since market processes have gradually been supplanting the processes of representative politics. Which is partly what Pavlina's post is implicitly about, too.
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