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Messages - NeilS [ switch to compact view ]

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26
As I understand it WGA will be mandarory in Vista - MS have already said that computers that don't pass WGA will have basic functionality disabled in VISTA - I am only surprised it has taken them this long to start doing that. Wait to hear the outcry when the false positives start meaning people can't use their systems at all.

I think we might be at cross purposes here, although it's probably my fault for overloading the term "mandatory".

So yes, I have no doubt that WGA will be mandatory in that it will attempt to phone home whenever it feels like it (although they might limit this to minimise complaints about it wasting people's bandwidth) and, if the activation check returns a "no" answer, they will disable stuff, probably even the OS itself (except maybe Safe Mode).

The other "mandatory" that I was talking about is what happens if the WGA check fails to reach the activation server, due to limited or no internet access (a fairly common occurrence in offices). If MS makes the reaching of the server mandatory as well, then WGA is going to break for a lot of people. I find it hard to imagine MS wanting to go this far, but maybe I just need a more fertile imagination. ;)

27
Actually Adobe seem to have solved this problem. If I restore a drive image with Adobe Creative Suite CS2 installed I have to activate it again. I don't know how they do it but it means that before I restore a backup image I deactivate CS2 to ensure I don't use up my activation allowance.

Knowing Adobe, they probably store activation info in places that a typical image won't cover, e.g. master boot record, other partitions, etc. None of these things are particularly hard to circumvent if the user is determined enough, and especially if someone has published info on how to do it. :)

My point wasn't so much that imaging was a trivial way to circumvent deactivation, more that it was somewhat easier than circumventing activation, which may be why MS aren't considering it (it's the weak link in the chain).

Every time MS runs WGA (which is to be 'enhanced', whatever that means, and mandatory in Vista) it checks to see you have licensed copy of the software - all it needs is to generate a hardware id with the installation code and compare it to their database to check the installion is the one activated.

The problem with "phone home" approaches is that they can open up a nasty can of worms which MS probably don't want to deal with. For a start, the phone home usually can't be mandatory*, to account for people with no internet connection or, more likely, office machines which are not allowed internet access. The problem with this is that there's no way for the "phone home" system to tell if the lack of access to the verification server is caused by a genuine no-internet situation, or by a firewall disallowing access for the purposes of avoiding the check.

* By "can't be mandatory", I mean that if the check fails to access the verification server for whatever reason, it simply gives up and tries again later, i.e. not being able to reach the server doesn't constitute a verification failure, no matter how many times it tries.

28
I don't think deactivation can be protected against foul play as easily as activation, which is probably why MS aren't considering it.

Circumventing activation would almost certainly require a crack, and probably a significantly more comprehensive one than the existing XP activation patches (depending on how all this Vista self-protection stuff works).

Deactivation, on the other hand, could be circumvented via an image backup of the OS drive. In order to do a remote deactivation, the user would likely run a deactivation tool which provides them a code which MS can verify matches the machine they last activated against. If this code is valid, MS can allow them to activate the new machine. However, if the user has an image backup (from before running the deactivation tool), they can restore from this and have a working "old" machine again.

Of course, MS could combat this kind of thing by forcing the OS to phone home periodically, but that's a whole other can 'o worms they'd probably rather not get into.

I do think MS are playing a dangerous game with the enthusiast market though. Apart from the obvious risks, such as alienating the people who drive much of the PC hardware treadmill, I wonder if MS have considered how much impact enthusiasts have on other, more "average" home users? Most enthusiasts I know are responsible for setting up a lot of friends and family with PCs, and providing support to them. If the Vista license situation drives them away, what impact will this have on the general home market? Maybe MS simply doesn't believe that enthusiasts will set up their friends with Linux instead?

29
General Software Discussion / Re: Windows XP Myths
« on: October 16, 2006, 05:08 AM »
Zombie thread.  :o Chop the head off or it'll keep getting back up again.

30
General Software Discussion / Re: Need help with Google Talk!
« on: October 16, 2006, 03:49 AM »
Is it only GTalk that's doing this? Or rather, are you seeing anything else remotely weird in other apps?

Are you running any windows enhancements like WindowBlinds or anything like that?

Oh, and the obvious "fix" for all broken stuff: did you try uninstalling and re-installing it? :)

31
Thanks so much Mouser. I'll give them a good home.  :Thmbsup:

My avatar is none other than Darth Pingu, competitor with The Penguin of Death for the title of "Most Dangerous Penguin 2006", an honour dominated in recent years by Feathers McGraw.

If Darth Pingu looks slightly surprised by the lightsaber he appears to be holding, that's probably because it wasn't in his hand (wing?) until I fired up Photoshop. ;)

32
Wow, Mouser, how can you bear to part with them?  :o

I'd love to have them, but my very Britishness wouldn't allow me to take them off your hands without giving you something for them.*


*(Actually, that's not entirely true - I took delivery of a pile of free Intel system programming books not that long ago without so much as breaking into a sweat. But that was different - Intel were probably going to just burn them if they didn't get rid of them, so it was more like rescuing a kitten. :P)

33
You know, you could be right. With all the other stuff going on, maybe we wouldn't even notice any of the problems it might cause. :)

34
The bit I consider to be idealistic is the notion that reform, even in moving to a system which many people agree is more sensible, is without consequences.

I don't have any doubts that having patents with shorter lifespans and reduced scope would be a better solution, had it been introduced a long time ago. What I do have serious doubts about is how quickly things can change from the position we find ourselves in currently, and how far it can realistically go.

There's so much invested in the current system (in terms of big business relying on its current form) that radically altering it simply cannot be consequence free. Whether the consequences will be dire or merely "problematic", I'm not sure anyone can say with any real confidence.

Although there are quite a few differences between European and US patents, I don't think they are as great as many people might think. A lot of the rules that would seem to make it harder to obtain software patents in Europe can be worked around to some extent. The situation might be better, but it's far from the "idealistic" goal.

35
Living Room / Re: Deleting Folders that don't want to be deleted
« on: October 08, 2006, 01:44 PM »
This might be worth trying:

1. Open a command prompt
2. "cd" to the folder which contains the folder you can't delete.
3. Type "dir /x", and look in the resulting dir listing for the offending folder. You should hopefully see the "short" version of the folder name to the left of the normal name.
4. Type "rd <name>" where <name> is the short name of the folder.

HTH.


36
Indeed, but why should the algorithm be protectable? What if the great mathematicisions of our history had "patented" their mathematical concepts, their proofs, etc. Would we be where we are with mathematical and scientific knowledge? I doubt it. I just don't see the value in extending from "protection of the unique expression of an idea" to "protection of the idea itself". The unique expression is the true creation of man and should be protected as "property" so long as we have a concept of such a thing, IMO. But the idea is no-ones property and cannot be proved to be such. It is a much more arbitrary way of dealing with ideas IMO.

I don't quite agree with your wording ("the unique expression is the true creation of man"), because that suggests that ideas are somehow less creative, and I don't think that's true. However, when it comes to protection, I do agree that protecting ideas is much more problematic than protecting unique expressions of ideas. The main problem is that a single idea could be used in a number of unique expressions, and so protecting an idea can hamper a lot of further work, which can be undesirable.

And I guess, when it comes down to fundamentals, I'm generally against protecting ideas. The way I see it, protecting an idea gives you two things: 1) The inventor of the idea gets a fair shot at exploiting the idea, and 2) Extensions of the idea and unique expressions of the idea tend to be restricted too much. If the benefits of (1) were more significant than the issues of (2), then I might be for protecting ideas, but I'm not convinved that the benefits of (1) are that great in reality.

I generally believe that the inventor of a new idea will tend to have a natural advantage in terms of exploiting it anyway, since he will have a head start and was smart enough to come up with the idea in the first place. OK, so there will be cases where a large company will see someone's great new idea, steal it, and overtake the inventor, but inventors can combat this to some extent by not releasing details too soon, and history has also taught us that radical new ideas are rarely stolen, mainly because people don't believe in new ideas until the evidence is staring them in the face.

The problem with this viewpoint, though, is that some ideas are so fundamental that they have lots of applications besides the one the inventor was considering at the time of invention, and the inventor's natural advantages won't normally stretch to all applications, so something like patents are the only way to give them a chance to exploit these other applications first as well. However, you could argue that this gives the inventor more than a "fair shot" at exploitation, but I guess different people have different definitions of what a "fair shot" actually means. I do think the current patent systems go far beyond any reasonable definition of fair shot, though.

That said, I'll happily admit that my opinion of how things should work is pretty idealistic, as is much of the anti-patent talk I've witnessed. There's nothing wrong with idealistic opinions, of course, but I think we'll have to accept that the reality of the situation is very complex, and that any change will be very slow and will probably only ever go so far.

37
But if someone invents an algorithm isn't it already protected by *copyright*? If someone rewrites the algorithm in a different way it's unique and has its own copyright, but a *patent* would prevent that because it can be generalized enough to apply to slightly different approaches to the same thing (e.g. "A method for purchasing items in a shopping cart using a single click" or whatever). I think software *patents* are a bit silly. Just like sideways swinging patents. ;)

Copyright protects a specific expression of an idea, rather than the idea itself, so it doesn't really offer any protection for something like an algorithm. You could use copyright to protect a written-down version of the algorithm, but that wouldn't protect what the algorithm means, nor would it stop anyone using that algorithm in their own software, since the written-down version is not what is actually expressed by the software.

38
Companies in favor of software patents argue they need to protect their works. But the work is already protected by copyright! What they want to protect is their business modell! The dispute has become very emotional, which in turn means pure, naked facts are neglected.

Although "protecting your work" was one of the original goals of the patent system, it's not necessarily the primary reason companies obtain patents these days.

Large companies commonly use patents as bargaining chips when defending against other patent infrigement cases. Usually the patents on both sides are related, but they don't have to be. Large companies also tend to generate a lot of speculative patents these days, mainly to protect against patent trolls by covering areas of the "patent landscape" that trolls might try to gain a foothold in.

They prefer to maintain the status quo because they already have massive patent portfolios, so reducing the legal impact of patents would effectively reduce the perceived value of these portfolios. No large company is going to support patent reform as long as they have their shareholders to answer to.

For small companies (including startups), patents can have a large effect on the perceived value of the company, which can be critical when looking for funding. So, even if you have a great idea that you're confident no-one will be able to copy before you corner the market, investors will not typically share that confidence and will expect to see patents to help minimise competition and litigation from other companies. Patent reform is likely to be a mixed bag for small companies; it may level the playing ground a bit (against large companies with huge portfolios), but it might also make the path to investment much less clear.

IMHO software patents isn't wrong per se. What's wrong is the ludicrously high lifetime of patents, and that they can be granted for extremely generic cases... and that often "prior art" isn't taken into consideration.

So... I'm against software patents as they look now, but I'm not against the idea in general. If somebody comes up with some really unique algorithm, I think it's fair enogh that they're granted a couple years patent on it - but not more, considering how fast-moving the software industry is.

Yes, that's roughly my feeling on the subject at the moment. If we assume that the real goal is to protect inventors while maintaining a decent level of competition in the market, then the system needs to concentrate on reforming the lifespan and coverage of each type of patent that can be obtained, and adjust the rules to allow each type of market to operate optimally.

For example, it may be that software patents should be very short-lived and fairly specific, whereas manufacturing industry patents might need longer lives and a bit more generality.

39
Screenshot Captor / Re: Popup dialog & smoothing
« on: October 05, 2006, 05:45 AM »
Thank you, kind sir. :)

40
The thing I don't understand is if self protection is supposed to stop you altering files, storing extra files in the program folder and even stop you physically moving files in defragmentation - how come you can do it when you disable Outpost - and it isn't undone when you restart it ?

Interesting point - assuming Outpost records which sectors of the hard disk its files use, it should notice that they have changed when you re-enable it after a defrag (assuming they do change, of course) and notify you (just in case you weren't doing a defrag). Even if it doesn't notify you, it certainly has to re-record the sectors it's using, otherwise it will be protecting the wrong bit of the disk (which could be pretty disasterous). I hope that's not one of the outstanding bugs.  :o

I'm not sure that they're likely to implement an undo feature for when the file positions do change. For a start, that will undo part of your defragger's work, which I'm sure a lot of people will dislike, and implementing the undo would probably take them halfway towards their own defragger implementation, which might be a bit much for a firewall app.



41
Living Room / Re: Windows Blinds... why the extras?
« on: October 04, 2006, 12:59 PM »
Anyone use Windows Blinds to change the StartBar and it screwed up other settings on your PC? Anyone know how to reverse the changes? I even removed the software but to no avail.

WindowBlinds is designed to theme everything, so you can't really just skin the Start Bar with it, although it is possible to make a theme which looks exactly like your default theme, but with the Start Bar changed, if that makes sense.

What other settings did it screw up? Do you mean it changed window borders and stuff like that, or something else?

If you open Display Properties (right-click on desktop and select Properties), go to the Themes tab, select a different theme from the dropdown list and then click Apply, what happens?

42
Developer's Corner / Re: A little laugh for coders
« on: October 04, 2006, 12:47 PM »
I think the Unix entry is the funniest.

Yeah, that one was great - good use of tragedy and delayed punchline. :)

43
As it stands modifying its files (including their location on the disc) and its registry entries are not allowed. This is potentially a good feature as it means you can always rely on non infiltration intot he firewall software.

I suppose the simple solution in Perfect Disc and DiskKeeper (to name but two) is to declare the Outpost folder as excluded from any defragmentation.

Hi Carol,

When you say "modifying its files ... are not allowed", does this mean that it effectively returns some kind of disk write error when a program tries to write into the hard disk sectors occupied by Outpost files? I can see that being potentially catastrophic, although I'd hope the better degraggers like PerfectDisk/Diskeeper can cleanly "back out" of a sequence of moves when this happens. I don't think I'll be volunteering to prove that out though. :)

I think self-protection is a good move overall (although no solution is immune to attack), but it sounds like they are quite happy to let their customers find out if it causes any serious problems, which I find bizarre for a security application.

44
Screenshot Captor / Re: Popup dialog & smoothing
« on: October 04, 2006, 06:16 AM »
Mouser, any thoughts on this? Not meaning to hassle you, of course. :)

45
Living Room / Re: DonationCoder.com wallpapers (set 02)
« on: September 30, 2006, 07:58 AM »
it's clear cody has hidden the donations on a beach somewhere.. when do we get the rest of the clues to solve this game and recover the donation money?

You could just make him walk the plank, and he'll sing like, well... a bird. Arrr?

46
Living Room / Re: DonationCoder.com wallpapers (set 02)
« on: September 30, 2006, 06:03 AM »
Really liking beach.jpg. Cody looks great as a pirate. Arrr!

47
Is it just old age creeping up on me, or did ESC do a "Discard Image" on the popup dialog on previous versions? If it did used to do it, it doesn't seem to be working in this version.

48
Screenshot Captor / Re: non-automatic save - comments?
« on: September 29, 2006, 10:53 AM »
Maybe everyone is using the new popup dialog now, which kinda has the same effect?

Incidentally, it might be good to have the "Keep Image and Show" button on the popup respect the "Don't Auto Save Captures" preference. I know the "keep" part of the name probably suggests that a save will happen, but I often want to go into the main window without saving the image, mainly to see it a bit better (although the filtering suggestion I mention in another thread might remove my need to do that as much).

49
Screenshot Captor / Popup dialog & smoothing
« on: September 28, 2006, 11:40 AM »
Hey Mouser,

The new popup choice dialog is great, but it would be really nice if it could also (optionally) filter the image like the main window does. Since the image will typically be scaled down a lot to fit the popup, it tends to suffer even more from aliasing artifacts.

It might be worth only using the fastest filter for this, as the popup is supposed to be fairly low-overhead, but even that might not matter if you display the unfiltered version first and then draw the filtered version over it afterwards (just like the main window).

Speaking of which, do you calculate the filtered version of the image in another thread? I haven't actually noticed a pause, but maybe it's just quick enough to not be noticable.

50
Both working as expected now. :)

One other thought... At the moment, when you change the config dir, I'm assuming it just copies the INIs from the program dir to the specified config dir (unless there's something there already). When you add support to change the config from within the app, are you planning to copy/move the files from the last used dir to the new position?

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