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General Software Discussion / Re: Rumors of Adobe releasing CS2 for free? (true or NOT true)
« on: January 08, 2013, 09:17 AM »
(EDIT after uploading: When I wrote "legalize" here, on several occasions, I always meant "legalese" of course - sorry from a non-native speaker.)
EDIT before uploading:
40hz, I wrote this down, a little bit unordered, then thought by myself, don't bother people with such a long, disparate thing, with all its repetitions (and not having the time to edit it properly). But your insistence on the legal-moral aspect here bothers me; your argumentation doesn't take into real account the very special position Adobe has in the current world of sw. I don't vilify them at all, but I think we, customers, have some moral rights, too, whatever the legalize, and I'm rather positive about even the legalize developing in our sense here, in this affair. So finally, I think, in order to counterweight what you pretend to be "right" here, my arguments are needed, even in this sub-optimal arrangement that follows:
"I dont know the figures but I rekon Adobe have only gotten really huge with the advent of digital camera and the popularity of Photoshop amongst amatuer enthusiasts." - tomos, that's what I tried to explain to 40hz above, and argued Adobe had to take into account, in the very first place - and they did! And we concur here, I think: It seems to have been a mistake, or even sabotage, then they panicked, shutting down the codes (but knowing netherless they would spread all over the web within the next days anyway), then their marketing staff indeed didn't sleep this night (and how could they have?), and now they've come out, as the doctor has found out some hours ago (while I had given up), with the "professional" reaction to such desaster, i.e. they're really containing it both from the marketing side as from the legal pov:
- They've made it technically possible for anyone, now, to use everything in that package (= the codes were to be spread in the web anyway, but here, they "deliver" them anew, which psychologically is very different)
- At the same time, they don't actively allow for use, except for genuine CS2 / single products within that package customers; at the same time, they know that masses of "illegitimate" users will now use CS2 or some product out of the package technically (but not legally) given for free (and in fact, I think it's the very first time in sw history that the illegal codes are spread - and now deliberately spread, after downing, then reconnecting the web page in question - by the developing house itself - never ever heard of such a thing)
- They will obviously never intend any action to anybody taking advantage of their current, "illegal" "offer" (= whilst being "illegal", it's a deliberata offer in full knowledge of what people will do, in masses)
- So their next best step would indeed be to offer upgrade, and these without checking the codes of your current version (as they do now), or with communicating that any such code, incl. these general ones here, will be accepted (this will bring really satisfying numbers of both new Photoshop and new Acrobat users, and then many other users here and there for the rest of the package altogether. Take my example: I use my (very old version of) PageMaker, but if I got a current InDesign (update) for perhaps 300 euro, I'd be more than tempted, and the same would apply for many potential users of some of the programs there who cannot justify professional prices for professional sw, since, very simply, they don't make professional use of these programs. Note that for such an update, if Adobe accepted these general codes, without inquiring about more legitimate, previous, individual codes on top, many of us would get into such a "brand-new InDesign for me now" business, on such an update offer, even WITHOUT installing now "their" illegitimate copy of the program in question! I further insist on this core point of this affair (core point from my pov of course):
- If Adobe are smart (and I think / hope they are further on, their move today (= reconnection of the codes / links page, knowing they technically do it for everyone) BEING smart imo), they will offer an update to "anyone with the general codes", meaning, at some point in time (only), everybody being interested in their products will pay for Illustrator, InCopy, Photoshop, say, 250 or 300 bucks instead of 1,000 or 1,200 bucks (see below) - and then, these people (= non-professionals) are out of their dreaming-of-Adobe but within Adobe's regular-updates scheme, i.e. many of those will then update further on, here and there
- Now for the Adobe's normal prices. 40hz, your minority view here is perfectly justified: developers ought to be paid, no discussion upon that.
- In practice, though, we all convene here, but then love getting sw with coupons, - 70 p.c. off on bits, at student prices without being students anymore, in cases developers are "easy" re the documents to produce in order to get the special price, and so on: 90 p.c. of us love to pay less: this is a general rule that even applies to sw less expensive than Adobe's
- Now for Adobe in particular: For most sw, if a non-pro dreams of it, he buys it. Not so for Adobe, since Adobe's prices are tailored to professionals, and to professionals only: no clemency with dreaming amateurs, and no -40 p.c. at bits here, either (of course) - no chance for dreaming amateurs to get Adobe for a decent price, except if he's got student kids who deliver the needed documents for pops in order to get his beloved Photoshop, and really cheap then
- Furthermore, Adobe's European prices are almost two times the U.S. prices, and have always been. Now you can buy in the U.S., then you will be told there's no after-sales service, since the European one is for European-version customers only, and the U.S. one is for U.S. customers only - you'd fall between the two groups here
- Since exactly this was my problem, last year, for a simple activation of legit Adobe sw, it cost me FIVE HOURS of telephoning to about 8 or 9 different people, just in order to get my product activated, and this ninth very kind man presumably did something "illegal" in the eyes of Adobe, by finally activating my paid product; before, I had the "pleasure" to speak with people all over the world, and I particularly remember a woman from Russia or from Ukraine: I'm shuddering even now, when just remembering this conversation
- This all meaning, Adobe isn't any sw house as any other: Adobe is very special, hence some passionate reactions here and elsewhere, or to put it in other words: Adobe's so arrogant (this not being an accusation but a simple fact) that they simply won't let gone away with such a big error: When elsewhere people say, "well, was wishful thinking, will not be, I move on", with Adobe (or with MS, for that, but less so lately, since from villain, they more and more get the victim bonus, bec/of Apple having overtaken the "big winner" (and for some of us, the villain) role), there's big passion having been let out of the box, and it's not with a shrug that people are willing to close that box.
- You, 40hz, have been looking at this subject very cool, and you were alone to do so, from a professional's pov, but then, professionals are paid, they get their sw from their employer, or in the case of freelancers, they pay for their sw, but at the same time justify their prices vàv their customers with their expensive equipment incl. expensive sw (and they tend to exaggerate here a little bit, rather often) - even MS is there for the professional, AND for the amateur, with different ranges of products, but where the amateur products ain't totally crippled (as is the case with Adobe's "cheap" "Element" versions)
- So, as with SAP and other real "professional" sw no amateur will ever touch, Adobe is for professionals only, by their prices (and for a happy few who can, by their income, justify such prof. prices for their amateur use); the hick here being, Adobe's the only such sw house that in fact produces sw FOR amateurs, but not selling it with prices in concordance with this fact. I mean, what amateur's interested in traduction sw, in crm sw, in legal case M sw, and so on, let alone SAP product?
- But with Adobe's "professional" product, lotsa amateurs crave to have those! In this prof. league, then, Adobe is unique, by constantly making masses of amateurs' mouths water.
- All this has to be considered in such a PR desaster - Just saying, "if you want a prof. product, pay prof. prices, or clear off" wouldn't have been the smart Adobe reaction here, after the initial big-mistake they made: What they've got on offer is simply too attractive for millions of non-professionals. And it seems - they're very smart people - they are following the right strategy here, today, codes and links are available again, to everybody; any other move would have left them with some loyal professionals and fuming masses. It's up to them now to offer un upgrading scheme that will bring them lots of money when they don't ask for too harsh a price, for every product - bear in mind CS2 isn't that easy with modern computers / operating systems, so many people will be happy to upgrade, at a half-way decent price.
- Even at this very moment, the download speed is irreproachable, and considering the traffic they must get, I can't say but that I'm deeply impressed.
- But what about that little a... that did this to them, or was it just one big error on their part? Only one thing is for certain: Their codes / links page being down yesterday was on purpose; proof: download speed yesterday and today: they decidedly do NOT have technical problems over there. So it's now probable that they panicked yesterday, then thought about: With the best possible results for everybody, it seems to me. Hats off to them, they're real professionals even in the face of disaster.
- 40hz, you said, somebody else just do something equivalent. Well, that's planning without their extraordinary expertise. So they've got their quasi-monopoly in graphics, let alone pdf (any little office manage will say, well, there are competitors, but they are not 100 p.c. compatible, so in order to comply with authorities, etc. we must buy the original, whatever its price!), and hence their prices - but for amateurs, here and there, a big-mistake on their part, a little breach into this out-of-reach pricing scheme, is very welcome. And finally, let's not forget we're speaking of 8-years-old sw that no professional would touch anymore. (As for the monopoly aspect: sw competing with Acrobat Prof. costs 100-200 euro, whilst Acrobat Prof is available for over 500 euro, meaning, Adobe has recouped their pdf investments long ago, it's almost all net profits - and dont' forget, their pdf is a standard now, so some price correction re Acrobat would have been needed long ago. I don't blame them; I just say, some correction is very welcome.)
- The optimists have been proven right: They didn't cut off their servers to begin with, and now, obviously, they're preparing for the largest possible updating customer base. Is this to be blamed? Even themselves seem to move in our direction; do they need defendors of their most prominent (past in part, hopefully) arrogance?
EDIT before uploading:
40hz, I wrote this down, a little bit unordered, then thought by myself, don't bother people with such a long, disparate thing, with all its repetitions (and not having the time to edit it properly). But your insistence on the legal-moral aspect here bothers me; your argumentation doesn't take into real account the very special position Adobe has in the current world of sw. I don't vilify them at all, but I think we, customers, have some moral rights, too, whatever the legalize, and I'm rather positive about even the legalize developing in our sense here, in this affair. So finally, I think, in order to counterweight what you pretend to be "right" here, my arguments are needed, even in this sub-optimal arrangement that follows:
"I dont know the figures but I rekon Adobe have only gotten really huge with the advent of digital camera and the popularity of Photoshop amongst amatuer enthusiasts." - tomos, that's what I tried to explain to 40hz above, and argued Adobe had to take into account, in the very first place - and they did! And we concur here, I think: It seems to have been a mistake, or even sabotage, then they panicked, shutting down the codes (but knowing netherless they would spread all over the web within the next days anyway), then their marketing staff indeed didn't sleep this night (and how could they have?), and now they've come out, as the doctor has found out some hours ago (while I had given up), with the "professional" reaction to such desaster, i.e. they're really containing it both from the marketing side as from the legal pov:
- They've made it technically possible for anyone, now, to use everything in that package (= the codes were to be spread in the web anyway, but here, they "deliver" them anew, which psychologically is very different)
- At the same time, they don't actively allow for use, except for genuine CS2 / single products within that package customers; at the same time, they know that masses of "illegitimate" users will now use CS2 or some product out of the package technically (but not legally) given for free (and in fact, I think it's the very first time in sw history that the illegal codes are spread - and now deliberately spread, after downing, then reconnecting the web page in question - by the developing house itself - never ever heard of such a thing)
- They will obviously never intend any action to anybody taking advantage of their current, "illegal" "offer" (= whilst being "illegal", it's a deliberata offer in full knowledge of what people will do, in masses)
- So their next best step would indeed be to offer upgrade, and these without checking the codes of your current version (as they do now), or with communicating that any such code, incl. these general ones here, will be accepted (this will bring really satisfying numbers of both new Photoshop and new Acrobat users, and then many other users here and there for the rest of the package altogether. Take my example: I use my (very old version of) PageMaker, but if I got a current InDesign (update) for perhaps 300 euro, I'd be more than tempted, and the same would apply for many potential users of some of the programs there who cannot justify professional prices for professional sw, since, very simply, they don't make professional use of these programs. Note that for such an update, if Adobe accepted these general codes, without inquiring about more legitimate, previous, individual codes on top, many of us would get into such a "brand-new InDesign for me now" business, on such an update offer, even WITHOUT installing now "their" illegitimate copy of the program in question! I further insist on this core point of this affair (core point from my pov of course):
- If Adobe are smart (and I think / hope they are further on, their move today (= reconnection of the codes / links page, knowing they technically do it for everyone) BEING smart imo), they will offer an update to "anyone with the general codes", meaning, at some point in time (only), everybody being interested in their products will pay for Illustrator, InCopy, Photoshop, say, 250 or 300 bucks instead of 1,000 or 1,200 bucks (see below) - and then, these people (= non-professionals) are out of their dreaming-of-Adobe but within Adobe's regular-updates scheme, i.e. many of those will then update further on, here and there
- Now for the Adobe's normal prices. 40hz, your minority view here is perfectly justified: developers ought to be paid, no discussion upon that.
- In practice, though, we all convene here, but then love getting sw with coupons, - 70 p.c. off on bits, at student prices without being students anymore, in cases developers are "easy" re the documents to produce in order to get the special price, and so on: 90 p.c. of us love to pay less: this is a general rule that even applies to sw less expensive than Adobe's
- Now for Adobe in particular: For most sw, if a non-pro dreams of it, he buys it. Not so for Adobe, since Adobe's prices are tailored to professionals, and to professionals only: no clemency with dreaming amateurs, and no -40 p.c. at bits here, either (of course) - no chance for dreaming amateurs to get Adobe for a decent price, except if he's got student kids who deliver the needed documents for pops in order to get his beloved Photoshop, and really cheap then
- Furthermore, Adobe's European prices are almost two times the U.S. prices, and have always been. Now you can buy in the U.S., then you will be told there's no after-sales service, since the European one is for European-version customers only, and the U.S. one is for U.S. customers only - you'd fall between the two groups here
- Since exactly this was my problem, last year, for a simple activation of legit Adobe sw, it cost me FIVE HOURS of telephoning to about 8 or 9 different people, just in order to get my product activated, and this ninth very kind man presumably did something "illegal" in the eyes of Adobe, by finally activating my paid product; before, I had the "pleasure" to speak with people all over the world, and I particularly remember a woman from Russia or from Ukraine: I'm shuddering even now, when just remembering this conversation
- This all meaning, Adobe isn't any sw house as any other: Adobe is very special, hence some passionate reactions here and elsewhere, or to put it in other words: Adobe's so arrogant (this not being an accusation but a simple fact) that they simply won't let gone away with such a big error: When elsewhere people say, "well, was wishful thinking, will not be, I move on", with Adobe (or with MS, for that, but less so lately, since from villain, they more and more get the victim bonus, bec/of Apple having overtaken the "big winner" (and for some of us, the villain) role), there's big passion having been let out of the box, and it's not with a shrug that people are willing to close that box.
- You, 40hz, have been looking at this subject very cool, and you were alone to do so, from a professional's pov, but then, professionals are paid, they get their sw from their employer, or in the case of freelancers, they pay for their sw, but at the same time justify their prices vàv their customers with their expensive equipment incl. expensive sw (and they tend to exaggerate here a little bit, rather often) - even MS is there for the professional, AND for the amateur, with different ranges of products, but where the amateur products ain't totally crippled (as is the case with Adobe's "cheap" "Element" versions)
- So, as with SAP and other real "professional" sw no amateur will ever touch, Adobe is for professionals only, by their prices (and for a happy few who can, by their income, justify such prof. prices for their amateur use); the hick here being, Adobe's the only such sw house that in fact produces sw FOR amateurs, but not selling it with prices in concordance with this fact. I mean, what amateur's interested in traduction sw, in crm sw, in legal case M sw, and so on, let alone SAP product?
- But with Adobe's "professional" product, lotsa amateurs crave to have those! In this prof. league, then, Adobe is unique, by constantly making masses of amateurs' mouths water.
- All this has to be considered in such a PR desaster - Just saying, "if you want a prof. product, pay prof. prices, or clear off" wouldn't have been the smart Adobe reaction here, after the initial big-mistake they made: What they've got on offer is simply too attractive for millions of non-professionals. And it seems - they're very smart people - they are following the right strategy here, today, codes and links are available again, to everybody; any other move would have left them with some loyal professionals and fuming masses. It's up to them now to offer un upgrading scheme that will bring them lots of money when they don't ask for too harsh a price, for every product - bear in mind CS2 isn't that easy with modern computers / operating systems, so many people will be happy to upgrade, at a half-way decent price.
- Even at this very moment, the download speed is irreproachable, and considering the traffic they must get, I can't say but that I'm deeply impressed.
- But what about that little a... that did this to them, or was it just one big error on their part? Only one thing is for certain: Their codes / links page being down yesterday was on purpose; proof: download speed yesterday and today: they decidedly do NOT have technical problems over there. So it's now probable that they panicked yesterday, then thought about: With the best possible results for everybody, it seems to me. Hats off to them, they're real professionals even in the face of disaster.
- 40hz, you said, somebody else just do something equivalent. Well, that's planning without their extraordinary expertise. So they've got their quasi-monopoly in graphics, let alone pdf (any little office manage will say, well, there are competitors, but they are not 100 p.c. compatible, so in order to comply with authorities, etc. we must buy the original, whatever its price!), and hence their prices - but for amateurs, here and there, a big-mistake on their part, a little breach into this out-of-reach pricing scheme, is very welcome. And finally, let's not forget we're speaking of 8-years-old sw that no professional would touch anymore. (As for the monopoly aspect: sw competing with Acrobat Prof. costs 100-200 euro, whilst Acrobat Prof is available for over 500 euro, meaning, Adobe has recouped their pdf investments long ago, it's almost all net profits - and dont' forget, their pdf is a standard now, so some price correction re Acrobat would have been needed long ago. I don't blame them; I just say, some correction is very welcome.)
- The optimists have been proven right: They didn't cut off their servers to begin with, and now, obviously, they're preparing for the largest possible updating customer base. Is this to be blamed? Even themselves seem to move in our direction; do they need defendors of their most prominent (past in part, hopefully) arrogance?