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Messages - sgtevmckay [ switch to compact view ]

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Free Dock

Because it floats "freely" on the desktop, rather than being stuck on the side of the screen like most other docks
-ArchaicTimeFrog (August 06, 2010, 07:53 PM)

This has my attention  :Thmbsup:
Maybe a derivative of this name, time to break out the thesaurus

Rotisserie Dock

Where-we serve it-up-good, I guarantee!
Spoken with a French/Cajun accent  :Thmbsup:

May need to also look for a business-y name concept.
Something remember-able to s free user, but professional for business.
This is truly a neat trick  8)

Cog-Native Launcher

Pronounce Cognitive

I absolutely despise Stardock and almost all it represents.

I would also sell a ten thousand at $10 USD than 1000 at $20
But I would make every attempt to avoid almost all aspects of what ObjectDock+ represents, although I am certain that better service and a better product can be produced.

Circle Dock / Re: Change of Licensing from Version 2 (Cancelled)
« on: August 05, 2010, 04:35 PM »
@ 40hz

I await to here this  :tellme:

Circle Dock / Re: Change of Licensing from Version 2 (Cancelled)
« on: August 05, 2010, 04:33 PM »
At this time. I am going to take up mouser's suggestion and take some time away.
I am heartbroken by these events and fear the discontent that this situation has created in this community  :-[
I love this community, that's all there is to it.
Time is what is needed, and hopefully an appropriate decision will come with it.

I do invite the discussion to be continued and will look in on the comments from time to time.
Who Knows, even now my efforts to seek out VIP do not cease, or maybe even a grand suggestion that appeases all will come.

Keeping the faith
The Sarge

Greetings GentleZacharias
We are glad to have you here at Circle Dock and the community.  8)

My apologies for the late response , We are at a bit of a stand still here.
If you observe some of the posts you will see where we are at.

Stand by though things may change  :Thmbsup:

Circle Dock / Re: Change of Licensing from Version 2 (Cancelled)
« on: August 05, 2010, 03:58 PM »
Damn  :(
So that being said, our only recourse seems to be a release of a complete re-code away from Eric's original code.  :(

I thought that was what ye were planning (or thinking) of doing anyway ?

Let's just say we are at a crossroads where almost any consideration is examined.
I would rather find a solution that makes everyone happy, and without compromise if at all possible.
Even those that are not present or can not be a part of this conversation.

As A rule of thumb, I do not believe in compromise.
essentially compromise equates in 1+1= 1.5 , and no one will get everything they want.
If there is a way for everyone to get everything.
I will strive for it, even if the final result turns out otherwise. It does not mean that I cannot try.

Understand that I do feel incredibly stuck between a rock and a hard place.
Even if for some reason Markham throws it all out and starts again as some other project in the future, I would still prefer Forum help here, and at this time I know that that would not happen, or at least in a sense of community support.

A lot of folks are going to feel betrayed or that Eric's Legacy disgraced, no matter what happens now.  :-[

You can not un-ring a bell  :(

Circle Dock / Re: Change of Licensing from Version 2 (Cancelled)
« on: August 05, 2010, 03:45 PM »
That's why so many EULAs run to ten or more pages.   

You ain't just whistl'in dixie  :(

Circle Dock / Re: Change of Licensing from Version 2 (Cancelled)
« on: August 05, 2010, 03:37 PM »
if you are the author of code you release under GPL, can you in fact give "permission" to someone to release it as part of a closed source commercial application?

As copyright holder, you can do anything you want with your own code. The only problem is with the code you've previously released under GPL. Anybody could take that and make a derivative (or even competing) product out of it, and you'd have no legal recourse as long as they honored the terms of the GPL by sharing their source code.

So while it would be possible to relicense such code, it creates a real problem for a commercial code shop's legal department. Because even though you've granted them a different license, what you've sold them at that point can't come with the right to exclusive use because of the prior GPL release.          

Damn  :(
So that being said, our only recourse seems to be a release of a complete re-code away from Eric's original code.  :(

Circle Dock / Re: Change of Licensing from Version 2 (Cancelled)
« on: August 05, 2010, 03:15 PM »
FWIW there is nothing in the GPL that requires that compiled binaries be provided free of charge. There are several GPL'd products (and some Linux distros) that charge for their binaries  in order to offset expenses (or possibly even make some money) without violating the letter (or the spirit) of the GPL. So long as some provision has been made to supply source code to whoever requests it you're generally in compliance.  

And while there will always be a certain few who will scream about charging for GPL-anything, nobody who actually understands what GPL is about would have any problem with that.  

This sounds incredibly appealing, to me anyways, But I found nothing in the license that would support this. I need to go back and re-read again :(

I do not feel that I misquoted anything from Eric's original license agreement ???   :huh:

Circle Dock / Re: Change of Licensing from Version 2 (Cancelled)
« on: August 05, 2010, 03:13 PM »
Also, can't you do the app as a shareware/paid for/whatever and still release the source? Those who don't want to pay or want to modify it can compile the source, the rest can use the binaries [a la xchat]?

We seriously considered this for some time, and only the sales of primary support, modification, and requested features.
This was absolutely derailed by two events.
1.) We have found multiple instances of Programs that are either slightly modified versions, or exact versions of Circle Dock and Eric Wong's code. These versions are not made open source, even after approaching the "Programmers" in question, and in most cases there were attached fees for the software. In some cases Up to $50 -/+ USD
2.) Shortly after the release of v.1 and before I could get the source code up on the wikidot site. Markham and I were sent e-mails requesting the source code immediately. This individual was brilliant enough to use the e-mail for his Program for sale, which turned out to be Circle Dock under a different name. This individual not only retained a close source code, but openly admitted that is was "My Modified version of Circle Dock"

Markham and I immediately launched into some home work, and we have actually found several instances of this happening.
Although we approached these "Vendors" in an attempt to make them comply with the conditions of the copyright/left License, I was ignored at best and given terse communications at worst.
Apparently only Eric Wong can take action against a violation of his Copyright and license. Many of these individuals feel that Eric will never return, and so have proceeded to do as they will.
Some of these are now using Markhams code in their releases.

In recent considerations, we have discussed the best marketable solution and a solution that would protect Markham's intellectual rights as well as Eric's.
Unfortunately no matter how we hatch it, it all comes back to a closed source solution.
Many of Markham's solutions and code is very inventive and deserves to be protected in any way he see's fit.
That is my opinion.

That being said; now let's wait for the obvious question/comment.......

Circle Dock / Re: Change of Licensing from Version 2 (Cancelled)
« on: August 05, 2010, 01:16 PM »
this is off on a tangent about the GPL, but can someone clarify if this is allowed:
If someone wants to use my code as the basis for their closed source for-profit product, they'll have to come to me and work out a different license acceptable to both of us and pay me what I want for the right to use my code in their product under that license.

if you are the author of code you release under GPL, can you in fact give "permission" to someone to release it as part of a closed source commercial application?

This is true, but must be in written approval/release from "ALL" copyright holders, and any that did not give permission their code must be completely eliminate and rewritten.
There are already well documented incidents of this situation. Many Open Source Programs have had their license bought out from the Copyright holders, especially over the last 4 years

Keep in mind that the license means absolutely nothing without a proper notification of copyright.

Circle Dock / Re: Change of Licensing from Version 2 (Cancelled)
« on: August 05, 2010, 01:14 PM »
Oh no, and I absolutely agree with that.
Believe me when I say that I am so disappointed in myself.
VIP is only one of two people i have never been able to track down.
The other one has passed away, I know for sure. I can not find hid grave and he passed away in 1989

So; being unable to contact VIP has serious eliminated negotiations to the extent of discussion regarding the current licensing  :(

There are times that the GPL GNU is of great service, and I am all for open source programs.
I am a walking encyclopedia of free and/or open source program spanning at least 15 years.
But I am also an advocate of intellectual property and covering potential costs.
Profit is always a hit and miss and may not even be part of the equation

not moving forward? is it just the touch screen project that is abandoned or everything?

(keep the donation by the way - or give to DC if it makes you feel better.)

I want to say that the the Touch screen project is abandon (at this time)
Circle Dock may very well move forward in some form at this time

I am awaiting to speak with Markham again. I hope he is resting now. It is 0200 his time

Responded via PM  :-*

Circle Dock / Re: 7 inch touchscreen
« on: August 05, 2010, 12:03 PM »
For all those that Donated to this concept project.
Please read the following:

Circle Dock / Return of Funds donated to the Touchscreen project.
« on: August 05, 2010, 12:01 PM »
I am posting this as I have received too many opinions.
They basically break down to this:
1.) Since the project is not going to move forward I should return the donations (This is what I feel is the right thing)
2.) Keep the donations as some or all may feel insulted

So what say you?
I do not really need more confusion, rather a yes or no.
If any One that has donated to this project wishes their donation return, advise me and it will be done directly.

Just a comment,

I'm sure that it's unintended but, to me, the direction of this topic is starting to look a bit like ingratitude.

Perhaps we should ask Markham what we could do to further the project.

In fact:

@Markham & Sarge: In your opinion, what could we do to further the project?
We did raise some donations for you recently, which you then generously assigned to the NANY prize.

-cranioscopical (August 04, 2010, 04:43 PM)

I have reconsidered this question after much thought and lack of sleep last night.

Maybe there is something.
Help us with the business model concept.

What can we do to make this pliable enough to to remain appealing to Current End Users, while building/Maintaining a forward movement towards business licensing.

I would appreciate any thoughts. From Pricing Scheme (outside of the box included) to the effects in consideration of a non-business end user, to considerations of a fair price..
Any and all thoughts and considerations, regardless of how improvisational or unwieldy.

Probably not what cranioscopical actually meant, but this is an opportunity for All of us to ring in and make a difference in the direction that CD may go.
An opportunity for all DC members to be part of a solution  :Thmbsup:

Circle Dock / Re: Change of Licensing from Version 2 (Cancelled)
« on: August 05, 2010, 11:41 AM »
I haven't donated, but I would definitely pay for CD if it was priced reasonably.
At least if it has that launching feature I mentioned in suggestion thread. 

I completely agree with being compensated for your work, and from what I've seen, CD is definitely worth something.

I'd donate now, but if you all are going to make it pay-for, I don't see much point. Especially since I'm not even using CD right now.
-ArchaicTimeFrog (August 05, 2010, 11:08 AM)

I like you  :-* Can I keep you ???  :Thmbsup:

Actually Markham has already re-worked your request into the code, before all this swung the way it has.

We are only considering licensing, Priority support, and company propitiatory Customization to business; or anyone that buys a license.
Very few of the options you have now will be eliminated.
It is also our intention to continue to receive Donations (unfortunately will have to be listed as profit if this route is taken).
If we do take up this route, general support will be available as it has always been.
Suggestions will still be taken and seriously considered, and hopefully very little will change for folks like you and me.
You can install as many copies as you want on up to two computers.
A lot of this will be on an honor system. SO I am hoping on good faith  :Thmbsup:
It would be our intent to impact our current End User following as little as possible.
Anyone can buy a license, anyone can Donate, folks will still get support.

Many of you are aware of my absolute disdain of Stardork's (stardock) methods and pay to play then get ignored attitude.
It is exactly this we wish to avoid.
Dexpot has a great Business model and we have been looking to match this as much as possible. I went a little over board on some things not to long ago, and fortunately Mouser was kind enough to slap me back into reality ;)

Oh....and if at all possible, I would have no intent of selling for $20 dollars a license. In today's global financial scheme of things this is an unholy amount of money for what many may consider a luxury. I would not be able to afford it, so I am firmly keeping this in mind as I try to move forward with an anything

Circle Dock / Re: Change of Licensing from Version 2 (Cancelled)
« on: August 05, 2010, 11:20 AM »
If I take a dead GPL'd project, and use that source and project as an inspiration to build the same project, but with my own source, is my project now GPL'd?  I don't think so...

You know, I thought I had read that the source had been completely rewritten, but I couldn't find it, so wondered if I had imagined it. If so, surely that makes a difference, does it not? But then again, I must have imagined it, otherwise it surely would have been mentioned in this thread before now.

Otherwise I have embargoed myself from talking about GPL because after all these years I am still confused about it.

Actaully the GPL model is so restrictive and, in many ways, unrealistic that unless you have a large programmer team and a larger support and testing team, that Using this license and intending to charge for services is pointless!
I have never in all my years of business, IT, Communications and law Enforcement have I ever seen such a restrictive contract. It is nightmarish.
Anyone intending to take over a GPL GNU Licensed project that has been abandoned, should read and re-read teh License, and get an attorney. I have a legal Adviser acquaintance who deals in contract and licensing law looking over this now, and from his immediate impression, he would advise that almost all avoid this license, unless their software has hit an end of life, and some one wants to have their work made public for posterity.

For my part I find that he license is greatly misunderstood by both the implementer and the end user.
This license guarantees Free source code and any derivatives or modifications remain so.
That is all there is "FREE" about this license.

Covering the code question and how much of Eric Wong's original code remains:
I am comfortable in saying that less than 7% of Eric's original code remains in the latest build.
I know that some folks may translate that is tongue in cheek, as they can no longer verify for them selves, for that I have no control over, but if you will all recall, Eric was in the middle of a massive re-code of the Circle Dock code, because CD was a mess and rigged together of proverbial Code Duct Tape.
To have Circle Dock do what it does now, has required massive elimination of code, and new code added just to maintain what Circle Dock does and allow for the new code.
The Circle Dock we know now, does do what Eric Wong created, but in a completely different way.
Eric Wong's code will be completely eliminate in the near future, assuming that we move forward, and the Circle Dock we know now will be gone in code, if not in function.

Circle Dock / Re: Change of Licensing from Version 2 (Cancelled)
« on: August 05, 2010, 11:05 AM »

From what you have said, and taking a pragmatic view, it seems to me that you have only two choices.
Either charge a price for (your amended) CD that will cover your costs or close it down.

Personally, I'd favour the former, at least as an experiment. Would charging for CD really yield sufficient income to offset your costs? Can you be certain even of that?

It's irksome to find oneself embroiled in what seems a thankless task — I think many of us here have had that experience. Were it only that, the probable answer would be a change of attitude (and by that I intend no offence, simply the old 'if you can't change the circumstances, change your attitude' approach that helps keep many of us sane). Given that you are not covering your costs, however, it seems that you are faced with funding the project. In that case I'd say — speaking confidently from a base of complete ignorance — given your apparent desire to continue, go ahead and charge for it. Of course that depends on whether you're ready to withstand any license hassles that might surface; if so, full-ahead and damn the torpedoes.
-cranioscopical (August 05, 2010, 09:41 AM)

We have no idea either, But we will not know if we do not try  :Thmbsup:
It would be better to try and fail. This way we learn and expand.
Even if we try and succeed, then we learn as well.
Either way, we are all better for it, and I will be glad to document the journey right here at DC  :Thmbsup:

At the moment this is the route that we are leaning towards.
I have some business education and background, unfortunately Circle Dock is Global and not local, so many of the "Market Study" concept are not applicable. In this model, we will have to go live and have time to build.
Our recent efforts of collaboration With Dexpot (who already has a proven business license model) is a great step for us, and may be Circle Dock's (or what ever a future name may be) foot in the door.

Circle Dock / Re: Change of Licensing from Version 2 (Cancelled)
« on: August 05, 2010, 10:51 AM »
while it does sadden me that this program will leave open source, I must say who am I to say that you don't deserve some sort of profit from this program.
after all these costs do need covering  :-[

so all I can say is I now stand by your decision....

thanks to all that have developed and improved CD,
Archon of Fate
-Archon of Fate (August 05, 2010, 09:29 AM)

Please; no one start kicking themselves here  :o

Archon; you have been one of our biggest new comer supporters. I would have tossed you, and several others, some free licenses anyways  :Thmbsup:

There is nothing to be ashamed of in all of this, just a learning experience.
For all of us, myself included  :-[
Many times, we consider our wants without considering the potential costs, and not only do we get stuck in this habit, it becomes second nature, even I am guilty of this on a daily basis  :-[

Be comforted my friend.
No one person is the problem unto themselves  :Thmbsup:
Even I have learned an incredibly valuable lesson in all of this  :-*

Circle Dock / CD Makes PCMag list (again)
« on: August 04, 2010, 07:43 PM »
Three of the software I love and support are all right here,2817,2367226,00.asp

Big round of applause to
Circle Dock


Circle Dock / Re: Change of Licensing from Version 2 (Cancelled)
« on: August 04, 2010, 06:54 PM »
Just a comment,

I'm sure that it's unintended but, to me, the direction of this topic is starting to look a bit like ingratitude.
-cranioscopical (August 04, 2010, 04:43 PM)

Oh my cranioscopical, take heart my friend, and all of you.
I do not see anything in the comments today that I would even begin to consider as ingratitude. Just serious concern.
Concern for Markham, Myself, VideoInPicture's Legacy, and Circle Dock.  :-*
I would be concerned if the response was anything else.

What could this community do that it has not already done?
Support from users and non-users alike.
Support about a year ago, when I was dealing with personal issues and was unable to support Eric Wong's (our beloved VIP) legacy and keep the support going myself.
Others committing code
All these things have already been done

This community has done everything that is possible, up to the point of placing itself in possible financial risks. I can not go into any great detail here as it is not my place, but know that we have never failed to know that if we needed it, the support of the entire community would be at our beck and call. I have never doubted that.
Along the way we have made great new friends in the community. Archon Of Fate, christofarian, bbc999 just to mention a short list, and all of these folks have contributed and continued in the community to support and help, both Circle Dock and Donationcoder  :-*

I believe that someone here is absolutely correct in the recommendation of giving license(s) to those that have Donated.
I was keeping that Idea to myself as a surprise....Oops; Cats out now  :-[

If anyone knows anything about Bizspark by Microsoft, I would love to get some further information.

As many of you know, doing what many of us do is not easy or cheap, and made less so by Markham being retired, and myself applying for SSI (currently in appeals), Neither of us are looking for profit as much as we are looking to cover costs. To expand Circle Dock, and this comes at no small expense.
So much so, that it is more of a cost than this community can bear.
So it is up to Circle Dock to find a way to be self supportive, or go into dormancy; again.

I for one can tell you that I will not be leaving Donationcoder, regardless of how this turns out.
I have built 2 communities based on the lessons and feeling of community here, and I have so much love and respect for so many members here, that I will not readily give that up.
I will protect VIP's Legacy to the best of my ability, even if that means returning to the original source  :-[
I will also continue as I have done, and seek out VIP as I have continuously done for well over a year and a half now  :Thmbsup:
Besides; Mouser has asked for my help on a project  :tellme:

I want to thank you all for your support for, or against, and your comments.
Good, Bad, or indifferent; it is all what makes this community what it is.
Broad objective opinions, tempered with reality and honest thoughts.
This is show I see
Not to mention a really cool mascot  :P

Tuesday through Friday is a really restrictive time frame for me, so I need time to assimilate all that has happened, and then speak with Markham objectively.

Give us time to talk, and seek our position(s)  :Thmbsup:

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